Talking "Farming" and "Ratings" Over Drinks with Sakanaya no Mori-san (Ryuji)

The first dish was shark-skin nikogori, recommended by Taisho. It had a simple seasoning and had just been set into a jelly, and Ryuji responded, "It's good" and "The dashi really comes through." He also noted that when placed on rice, it melts a little from the warmth.

What Ryuji immediately thought of was using it in ramen. In his view, it is hard to extract this much gelatin from fish, and fish dashi is difficult to work with, so if you want to make seafood ramen, adding nikogori is one option. He said that simply adding it to something like shoyu ramen would probably make it superb, and the group got excited, saying, "We've definitely got to do this."

Next, they compared kuruma prawns he had eaten on a TV segment he previously appeared on with this time's kuruma prawns from Okinawa. The earlier ones were land-farmed prawns, ordered by mail.

After prefacing it with "Can I be honest?", Ryuji said the mail-order ones tasted better. The earlier prawns had sweetness, combining the sweetness of amaebi with the distinctive flavor of kuruma prawns. By comparison, he felt this time's prawns were a little coarse in flavor. While acknowledging that these prawns were also delicious, his assessment was that once you know the earlier ones, you can tell the difference.

As for why there was a difference, the others at the table pointed to the feed being quite different, and to having heard that the land-based farm makes the prawns exercise. However, differences in conditions were also noted. This time they were eaten raw, so they might change once boiled, and the temperature might also have had an effect, since they were weakened in ice water before being eaten—these caveats were attached.

They also compared the prawn miso (head innards), and the impression was that both the richness and the flavor of the miso were completely different. Beyond the difference in feed, someone speculated that the producer had probably eaten tens of thousands of prawns in developing the product, and Ryuji said, "This is really educational" and "You don't often get to compare these side by side."

Next came frozen sea urchin from Chile. Taisho's side began with the premise that Chilean sea urchin is generally bad-tasting and bitter, then explained that this sea urchin is a different story. Chile is a long, narrow country running north to south, and only urchin caught at its southernmost tip, extremely close to Antarctica, is processed for this product.

Ryuji recalled that at a restaurant he worked at about 20 years ago, he used frozen Chilean sea urchin in pasta and sea urchin pizza. His memory is that it was reasonably good once cooked. Those at the table who tried this urchin said things like it was quite good considering it was frozen, and that it didn't seem frozen at all. Someone also pointed out that the smaller ones taste better.

Here too, Ryuji thought about cooking applications. If this sea urchin became available everywhere, he said, he would desperately want to create a sea urchin cream pasta recipe. If it were distributed in large volumes it should become cheaper, and he said he'd like it to be distributed more widely. They also discussed how harvesting only in designated places, combined with repeated improvements, leads to results like this.

Partway through, whale baleen also made an appearance. Described as a precious item that is hard to obtain nowadays, there was a moment when Ryuji was encouraged to just display it in his room. It was also explained that whales swallow fish along with water, then use this baleen to push out only the water and strain out the fish.

Another item that came out was miso tamari, used as a soy sauce for chutoro. It is made of only the umami of the miso that rises to the top; because taking all of it would strip the miso of its umami, it is normally sunk back into the miso. They are given just a small amount of it, from before it is sunk back, each month. For those who make miso, it is like their lifeblood, and normally you can't get it, they said. Ryuji was surprised by the intensity of its umami.

The conversation moved to the inside story of the TV segment (referred to as "Tsuhan no Tora") that had led to the earlier kuruma prawns. Both Ryuji and Mori appear without pay. According to Ryuji, the company presidents who appear pay money to be on it because they want to sell their own products. On the other hand, the two of them are in the position of having been asked to appear by Kuwata-san on the organizer's side. In Mori's case, he said he was asked to appear because there was no one who understood fish, and that he covered things like his own travel expenses to the location.

Ryuji said, after stressing that this was not meant as criticism, that perhaps there was no need for them to appear. In his view, company presidents and creators are being treated the same way, but if you bring on creators, there should be a fee for their skills.

He also touched on differences in attitude during appearances. Those who pay want to leave a mark, so they get passionate, but since he isn't paid, he goes flat when something doesn't interest him, and sometimes that moment gets clipped and he's called "unpleasant." Ryuji acknowledges that he is the type who gives opinions without pulling punches, and others at the table said that's exactly why he can be trusted, and that his reaction when something wins him over is amazing. His reaction to the earlier kuruma prawns was cited as an example.

For Ryuji, the takeaway was that he had never compared farmed products against each other. He understood that wild and farmed are different, but had wondered whether farmed products could vary that much. This time, he learned that even with farming, the flavor differs completely depending on where it is raised, and he said he doesn't think many people pay attention to this.

From the topic of Mori rarely collaborating with cooking YouTubers, Ryuji talked about his own view of work. He isn't fond of gatherings of cooking YouTubers, and only goes occasionally to gatherings like Ajinomoto's "Aji Friends" because he gets work from them.

The reason is that he doesn't like getting work through connections. He wants to be evaluated on his ability and get work that way. Rather than having work because he shows his face at such gatherings, he wants to be hired because he is needed. While saying he doesn't know whether such people actually exist, he said he tries not to do much socializing. Even with TV segment appearances, he doesn't like relationships that are like an extension of playing around, along the lines of "He's one of us." If he does something, he takes proper responsibility; he said he wants to do all his work on the basis of "I can do this much, so I'd like this much compensation, and in return I'll deliver this much in results."

Hearing this, one of the others at the table brought up something that happened at Kuwata-san's birthday event. When Ryuji was brought up on stage and things moved toward smashing his face into Hayashi-san's cake, he got angry and said you shouldn't play with food. That part was cut, but people involved in food responded with "Thank you for saying that," and Hayashi-san also thanked him. The story was about how much he values respect for food.

One of the others at the table also confessed that they had previously judged Ryuji without looking at who he really was. They had wondered about someone who associated with Kuwata-san, but after actually talking with him, they learned he was someone who engages this seriously, and felt they hadn't seen anything at all. Ryuji responded that what was said back then had resonated with him too.

Midway through the gathering, 100% domestic caviar raised in a river in Aichi Prefecture arrived. For sturgeon, it takes about two years from infancy until males and females can be distinguished, and 10 years until eggs can be harvested, and this producer, too, finally became able to ship after 10 years. The production area is a village in the mountainous region of Aichi Prefecture with the smallest population in the prefecture, and it was also said that there are more sturgeon than people.

Those who tasted it all said "Delicious," describing it as fresh, with a nice pop to the grains and very strong umami.

The conversation turned to the sturgeon meat left after harvesting the caviar. The cartilage is very tasty, and it's also good as sashimi. It was also explained that although sturgeon have "shark" in their Japanese name, they are not sharks, and because they have kidneys, they don't smell of ammonia. The meat of the parent fish after the eggs are extracted is as firm as fugu, but it doesn't sell because people don't know about it. On hearing this, Ryuji responded, "Let's sell it," and it developed into talk of featuring it on that TV segment, with him cooking it. Someone also said that while sturgeon gets mocked by everyone, it doesn't smell even when made into nigiri.

There was also a proposal to give a tour of the caviar production area, Horai, and Aichi's local salmon (whose name is unclear in the subtitles). This salmon is said to be the original local salmon. The person who produced it passed away last year, but it was said that during their lifetime, regardless of money, they helped spread the results of its development nationwide. The idea is to tour them over two days and one night.

From the topic of local salmon, one of the others at the table shared a dream: "I want to do salmon." They want to compare local salmon from various regions, such as Fuji and Sanuki Salmon from Shikoku, and to value the producers. There was also an expectation that if kuruma prawns differ this much, salmon must differ considerably too.

Here, opinions split. Mori's position was that he didn't want to assign rankings such as first place and second place. In response, Ryuji offered to do the ranking himself, because he thinks ranking is better for getting people to recognize that salmon flavors differ.

Ryuji anticipates that some will ask what happens to the producers who weren't rated well. Even so, if you simply put it out as a product and make it available on Amazon and the like, it will get reviews such as four stars, five stars, two stars. He thinks that's unavoidable once something is put out as a product. With the premise that all of them are wonderful, consumers still want to know the ratings. So if anyone is going to take the criticism, he said, he'd rather it be him most of all.

Ryuji further cited the fact that he is a polarizing figure as an advantage. He said people would probably eat the ones he rated low out of contrarianism. Since some people will doubt Ryuji's ratings themselves, the rankings won't be taken at face value. The aim is not to show who ranks where, but to raise the reputation of domestic salmon as a whole, he explained. Someone at the table added that salmon is basically imported.

Toward the end, the talk turned to Japan's aquaculture industry. They said they had been talking about this the whole time on the shinkansen on the way there, too. One of the others at the table said that while they of course love wild products as well and want people to eat more of them, farmed products are something everyone can eat more sustainably than wild ones, and prices are more stable.

Using chickens and pigs as examples, someone also pointed out that those aren't wild either. Seen this way, it's natural for fish farming to be increasingly incorporated into the primary industries as they have existed. The view that only for fish is wild good and farmed bad is gradually changing, but wild is also wonderful, so both should serve as pillars. Rather than rejecting one or the other, what's important is to join hands and help each other grow—everyone nodded in agreement at this conclusion.

Sea urchin was cited as an example. What was hardly edible 20 years ago has now improved in quality. They wouldn't say it's the best it can be now, but it has changed from the sea urchin they ate 20 years ago. The point was that there is meaning in the shift "from fishing that catches to fishing that cultivates."

Hearing this, Mori said, "I'm getting teary." Regardless of whether it's wild or farmed, there are people working hard to produce food, and it had been truly frustrating to see their products dismissed simply for being farmed, without anyone looking at what they really are. That's why today's conversation made him very happy, he said.

The conversation could have gone on forever, but it was wrapped up here due to time constraints. Ryuji said that because he really wants people to hear this discussion, he might film another drinking video at a later date and do it on his main channel. He went on to say that he will continue as a cooking researcher, but acknowledged that he is still weak when it comes to fish, and that he wants to make this channel a channel for learning, with continued help from Taisho and Mori.