Peace Through Conversation: Michelle Khare's Week Learning FBI Crisis Negotiation
Michelle Khare
In this episode of Challenge Accepted, Michelle Khare spends a week with the FBI field office in San Diego and the San Diego Police Department to learn the tools crisis negotiators use to de-escalate dangerous situations. At the end of the week, Michelle acts as lead negotiator in a staged bank robbery with hostages. Michelle starts the week hoping to learn "a few magic words to make anybody do whatever I want." The training points somewhere else: the core skill turns out to be listening, not persuasive phrasing.
The Role of a Negotiator: Verbal Containment and Venting
The instructor is Special Agent Jeff Horner, crisis negotiation coordinator for the FBI's Southern District of California. Horner describes the negotiator's main objective as defusing intense emotion. On arriving at a scene, the team first tries to open lines of communication with the subject. Horner calls this "verbal containment." His reasoning is that a subject who is talking with negotiators is less likely to hurt a hostage, an officer, or themselves.
The second goal is to let the subject release negative energy. Horner says subjects arrive "full of anger, full of fear," and the negotiator's job is to give them a chance to vent. The main tool for this is active listening. Michelle recognizes the term from therapy and isn't sure at first whether it means the same thing here. Horner frames it as trying "to affect positive change through listening."
Thrown In Without Training: The Carjacking Scenario
To test the waters, the team sends Michelle into a hard scenario with no training at all. A carjacker named Jesse has stolen a vehicle with an innocent man, Dale, in the passenger seat, and police have stopped the car. Michelle's job is to resolve it peacefully under strict rules. Michelle cannot trade one hostage for another, cannot provide a means of escape, and cannot make any promise that command has not authorized in advance.
Michelle starts by speaking to Dale and asks Dale to stick an arm out the window to show he's okay. Jesse refuses to engage, says "we're done talking," and rolls up the windows. Michelle tells Jesse, "You and I both know we can't go anywhere until this is resolved peacefully." Jesse answers that it will be resolved if Michelle leaves.
The team falls back to the San Diego Police Department's negotiation truck, which Horner describes as state-of-the-art, with whiteboards, microphones and room for the whole negotiation team. Horner says the point is for Michelle to see the value of a team supporting the primary negotiator. They call Jesse's cell phone. Jesse blames the police for flattening the car's tire, says he only went into the store for food, and keeps demanding another car. He then demands that someone "who knows what they're doing" take over.
Michelle admits to freezing up. The rules about what can and can't be said are numerous, and with a life at stake Michelle keeps hunting for the perfect words. A team member advises ignoring all that and talking to Jesse like a person, "like pretend it's your sister that's on the phone." The next call goes worse. Michelle asks what kind of car Jesse wants, which implicitly treats the escape demand as negotiable. Jesse then threatens that Dale will get hurt and that it will be Michelle's fault. Michelle replies that if Dale is hurt, "this is not going to end the way that you wanted." Jesse hears that as a threat and pushes back: "Don't start giving me ultimatums. I'm the one in charge here." Michelle ends the call saying, "I have no idea what to do," and the scenario is called off.
The Debrief: Show That You're Listening
Horner's feedback reframes the problem. Michelle should worry less about what to say and more about showing the subject that their words are being heard. In Horner's account, a subject who feels heard returns to more rational decision-making. Only then can the negotiator influence their choices in a positive way.
Horner also points to strengths: a compassionate, kind tone and some good open-ended questions. He defines an open-ended question as one that can't be answered yes or no. Who, what, where and when questions are useful. "Why" questions are the type to avoid, because they can come across as judgmental. Open-ended questions get the subject talking, and talking means they are both venting and giving the team information.
Back-to-Back: Working Without Visual Cues
Next comes a roleplay called a "back-to-back." Michelle and a role player sit facing away from each other, and the goal is to gather as much information as possible from someone in crisis. The narration explains that eye contact and facial cues make communication easier. Without them, Michelle has to focus only on the other person's words, much as on a phone negotiation.
The role player had a fight with a boss and immediately asks who called the police and whether it was a coworker named Bob. Michelle draws out that the boss is named Greg and that the man takes credit for the subject's work. The exchange stalls when Michelle gets tangled in the question of whether Bob made the call. In the feedback, the role player says Michelle asked good open-ended questions, such as the boss's name and what the fight was about. The advice is to keep digging into the actual issue. Negotiators usually try to learn what happened in the previous 24 to 48 hours, because that is typically where most of the emotion comes from.
Emotional Labeling and the "Therapy Stuff"
Horner introduces the acronym "MORE PIES" for the active listening skills. There are eight techniques in total, but Horner has Michelle focus on the few he considers most effective. The first is emotional labeling: naming the feeling you hear, such as "I imagine that you feel trapped" or "I hear hopelessness in your voice." According to Horner, this shows the person that you have empathy for what they're going through.
In a practice exchange, a role player says a loved one has a brain tumor and maybe a month to live. Michelle responds, "Sounds like you're feeling scared." Horner explains that a wrong label isn't fatal. The subject will correct you ("I'm not scared, I'm…"), and they will still feel the effort to understand them. Horner also shows Michelle an "emotional wheel," a chart of emotion words, so a negotiator can avoid repeating the same label like "you sound sad" over and over.
Michelle is surprised by how much of this resembles therapy. The lessons are about relationships and listening, and Michelle notes that the skills apply to friends, coworkers and family as well as to crises.
A Real Bank Case and I-Messages
Horner takes Michelle to a local bank similar to the site of the final challenge and describes a case a colleague handled. An armed man took over a bank and took hostages. Horner's colleague was the first to negotiate with him. After about three to four hours, the subject released the hostage and eventually surrendered peacefully. Horner calls it "a home run" and credits open-ended questions and emotional labeling.
He then teaches "I-messages," a way of signaling approval or disapproval of something the subject says or does. The formula is: "I feel [feeling] when you [behavior] because [reason]." Horner plays clips of real 911 calls and asks Michelle to respond.
To a caller threatening to harm a woman, Michelle offers: "I feel hurt when you say that you're going to harm her because it's not necessary." Horner gives his own version: "I get nervous when you put the gun in her mouth because I don't want it to accidentally go off." He explains that this reframes the subject's position. The subject may be posturing, but if the gun goes off by accident, the subject is now in serious trouble. To a caller who says he'd rather die than go to jail, Michelle answers: "I feel sad when you say you'd rather die because I feel like we could work together to find a better solution." Horner's response is "Beautiful."
Mirroring and Empathy Over Stoicism
Horner teaches several more techniques. Michelle highlights mirroring, which means repeating the last few words the subject said: "We don't get along." / "You don't get along." Michelle calls it something like a Jedi mind trick. Despite its simplicity, it makes the other person feel heard and on an equal footing.
Michelle reflects that the media usually portrays good negotiators as firm, stoic and loud. Horner's approach keeps those principles but adds empathy. Michelle also suggests that people today communicate mostly about themselves. Taking a genuine interest in others and letting them share their experiences and feelings builds much stronger relationships, in Michelle's view.
The Negotiation That Failed
Before the final challenge, Horner shares one more lesson, at the site of a real negotiation he was involved in. A service member was facing a third deployment in about two and a half years, had recently had a child, and didn't want to deploy again. The service member barricaded themselves in a garage with a handgun. Despite immense effort from the whole negotiation team, the service member took their own life. Horner was standing beside the person's spouse when it happened and says he can still hear the spouse's screams.
Asked how a negotiator moves on from that, Horner says they rely on their training and their teammates. They also remind themselves that they are there because they care and will do everything they can to influence the person to choose to live. He describes negotiation as climbing a mountain. You may think you're nearly at the top, then say "something stupid," which he admits he has done, and fall all the way back down to start over from square one.
The Final Challenge: A Mock Bank Hostage Crisis
For the final challenge, Michelle is lead negotiator for a staged hostage situation at a local credit union, with SWAT on scene. As in a real negotiation, Michelle can't see inside the bank and must rely on the phone and the team. The mission is to get everyone out alive, including the hostage taker.
The subject identifies himself as Joe. Joe says he came to the bank to get some money and is now stuck with strangers. He demands a car and clear streets, and warns that people will get hurt if he doesn't get them. When Michelle says these things take time, Joe sets a five-minute deadline. He also keeps breaking off to yell at someone named Randy, whom he calls an associate. Michelle tries to pull his attention back ("Joe, focus on me") and uses an I-message: "I feel really disappointed when I hear that people could get hurt."
The early going is rough. Michelle tells the team, "I don't really know where to go from here." A teammate suggests asking how Joe's morning started, but Joe pushes back on why any of it matters. Michelle presses for the reason Joe came to the bank. Joe reveals he came to withdraw $20,000 and has a chronic condition he doesn't want to discuss. When Michelle expresses sympathy, Joe snaps: "I don't care about your feelings." Michelle then repeats a mistake from the carjacking scenario, saying that if Joe chooses to leave, "it will not end the way that you want." Joe again asks whether Michelle is threatening him.
Turning Point: Releasing the Pregnant Hostage
In the truck, the team regroups around two ideas. The hostages are clearly a distraction to Joe, so Michelle could propose releasing them. Michelle could also try emotional labeling. The team brainstorms emotions Joe might be feeling: bitter, humiliated, disrespected, trapped. Michelle doesn't want to say "humiliated" to him and settles on "trapped." The team also advises letting Joe vent without talking over him.
When Joe calls about the car again, Michelle redirects to releasing the hostages, and Joe refuses. As the chaos inside escalates, Joe says there's a pregnant woman present. Michelle asks whether anyone is hurt; Joe says no one is, but he can't guarantee that will last. Joe insists he's "the good guy," that he hasn't hurt anyone and only took some money. Michelle labels the emotion: Joe must be feeling trapped, maybe claustrophobic. Joe agrees that he does feel trapped. Michelle says nothing can be given until the hostages are released, since they're a distraction from his plan, and that she knows he doesn't want to hurt them. Joe then asks Michelle to help get the pregnant woman out.
The release itself nearly falls apart. When Joe learns that armed officers will be outside, he accuses Michelle of breaking their agreement and insists he needs the money after working for 20 years. Michelle turns this into praise. Someone who worked 20 years sounds very hardworking, and that's why Joe hasn't hurt anyone and won't. Joe sends the woman out. Michelle thanks him and calls it the right thing to do.
Building Rapport: The Back Injury and the Kids
The team says Michelle has Joe "on the ropes." They advise reminding Joe that nobody has been hurt and that releasing a pregnant woman shows his humanity, which a judge will take into consideration. Michelle opens the next call by telling Joe the released hostage is safe and back with her family because of his choice.
Michelle then probes his history, suggesting Joe may have had bad experiences with police. Joe opens up. He feels the whole system is stacked against him. He installed water heaters for a plumbing company for about 20 years, badly hurt his back, and it has never been the same. He tried pills and doctors and needs medicine to live, and he was fired. He says he earned this money and just wants a normal life.
Michelle connects this to his character. He seems like someone who likes helping people, which is why he released the hostage and why he spent years helping people in their homes. Michelle asks whether Joe has kids. He has two, ages six and nine, named Ben and Sarah. Michelle says they must look up to him. Joe still has three hostages and says he doesn't know what to do. He fears that if he lets them go, police will come in and shoot. Michelle points out that police haven't come in and have followed through at every exchange. Michelle then raises his children. If he resolves this now, Ben and Sarah won't have to see their father on the news holding people captive.
Closing the Deal Without Overpromising
Joe asks for a guarantee of a reduced sentence. This tests one of the rules from the start of the week, since Michelle can't promise anything command hasn't authorized. Michelle says that can't be guaranteed. What Michelle can offer is that the judge will hear that Joe didn't hurt anyone, and that the report will include a transcript of exactly what both of them said. Joe asks, "You promise?" Michelle says yes, and Joe agrees to send the remaining hostages out. Michelle tells Joe that everyone makes mistakes and that he made the right choice. The scenario ends with officers directing him out under commands. Michelle calls it "the longest two hours and the shortest two hours of my life at the same time."
Why Negotiators Do This Work
Asked why he does this work, Horner says everyone faces challenges. People helped him through his own difficult times, and he wants to pay that forward. Protecting an innocent person from violence is, in his words, "the ultimate of making a difference." He closes with the motto of the crisis negotiation unit at FBI headquarters, Pax per colloquium, which he translates as "peace through conversation." "If we can do that," he says, "then man, that's a win."
You and I both know we can't go anywhere until this is resolved peacefully.
Oh, are you threatening me now, Michelle?
If you hurt Dale, this is not going to end the way that you wanted today.
You know what, Michelle? You better hurry up, because Dale's about to get hurt, and it's all going to be your fault.
Believe it or not, the FBI has let me back in. We are here at the FBI field office in San Diego to see what it takes to be a world-class negotiator. We are going to be learning the actual tools and tricks that crisis negotiators use to de-escalate some of the most intense situations.
This is a lot of therapy stuff.
And at the end of this week, I'm going to be putting my new skills to the test in a high-stakes bank robbery hostage scenario.
Breaking news: hostage situation at a bank. The SWAT team and hostage negotiators are responding to the credit union where a bank robber is still inside.
If I don't get that car, people will start getting hurt. You understand that? Hello?
Challenge accepted.
Hi, nice to meet you. Jeff Horner with the FBI. I'm the crisis negotiator coordinator for the Southern District of California with the FBI. I'm excited to teach you how to be a hostage negotiator.
I'm very excited about this week because I feel like I'm going to learn a few magic words to make anybody do whatever I want. Is that the case?
Right, we'll see what we can do.
Really?
We'll give it our best shot.
Our role as a hostage negotiator is to really defuse an intense emotion. That's our main objective. So when we arrive on a scene, we want to establish lines of communication with the subject. We call that verbal containment, because if the subject is talking with us, then they're less likely to hurt somebody else or even hurt themselves or an officer. We want to give the subject the opportunity to get some of that negative energy out, and we do that through a skill called active listening. Are you familiar with active listening?
Yeah, I've heard it in therapy, but I feel like this is a different context. Maybe it's the same.
We're trying to affect positive change through listening. We're coming into a very intense situation. The subject is full of anger, full of fear, and we want to give them that opportunity to vent. So, Michelle, we have some really exciting field training exercises that we're going to give you the opportunity to be the primary negotiator in. I'll be honest, some of these are going to be really challenging.
To test the waters, we're going to send Michelle through a very challenging first scenario without any training whatsoever.
For this scenario, I'm told a carjacker has stolen a vehicle with an innocent man in the passenger seat. Police have since stopped the vehicle, and it's my job to peacefully resolve the situation.
Under no circumstances can she trade one hostage for another. She cannot provide a means of escape. She cannot make any promises that command does not authorize in advance.
So you're going to toss that.
Hey, Dale, my name is Michelle. I'm here with the police. I know you must be very scared right now. I just want to check in to see if you're okay.
Get out of here. He doesn't need you.
Can you stick your arm out the window and let me know if you're okay? Okay, you're okay. Great. Jesse, I know it must be very confusing and scary. There's a lot going on right now. We're here to help. Could you tell me what happened today?
I don't need to tell you anything. Go away.
You could do the whole, "I'm having difficulty hearing you. Is there another way that we could try to communicate?"
We're having a lot of trouble hearing you, Jesse. I'm curious if there's a phone number we could call.
We're done talking to you.
Hey, I see the windows are going up, and that's making me a bit nervous. I can't hear you if all the windows are up. You and I both know we can't go anywhere until this is resolved peacefully.
Well, it'll be resolved if you leave. I didn't call you.
I want you guys to gather your equipment. We're going to go back to the NOC and try to call them by the cell phone.
You're going to see the San Diego Police Department's state-of-the-art negotiation truck that has whiteboards, microphones, incredible resources that help house the entire negotiation team. She's going to see the value of an entire team behind her, propping her up and helping her in her communications.
Place the call.
What do you want?
Hi, Jesse, this is Michelle. I'm with the police, and I'm just calling to help.
I didn't ask you to help us. Dale's fine. We're good. Just get us another car, and we'll be fine.
I know a lot is going on right now. I just want to make sure everything—
A lot going on? You got freaking cops pointing guns at me. I didn't do anything.
Could you tell me a bit more about why you went into the store today? Were you looking for money? Did you just want a drink?
What else would I be going to the store for? I wanted to get some food, Michelle. That was it.
Then how did we end up here?
Because you guys flattened the tire on the car. You guys caused this, not me. I was leaving. I was getting out of the area.
Well, we understand you're in a hurry. I just want to know where you were planning to go.
Anywhere but here, Michelle. I just want to get out of here. You're making me way nervous with all these cops.
How do you see this ending today?
Get me a car and I'll leave. Good Lord, put somebody on that knows what they're doing, damn it.
There are so many rules on what you can and can't do, and when the stakes are as high as someone's life on the other line, I find myself freezing up, constantly trying to find the perfect words to say.
You can't be perfect every time. Ignore all this and just talk to him like a person. Pretend it's your sister that's on the phone.
Okay. Hello, it's Michelle again. I know you must be feeling super frustrated right now. You and I both know that we can't leave until this is resolved peacefully.
You need to start working on getting me a new car, and I want to get out of here.
What kind of car do you want?
I don't care. Anything.
Please just get him another car.
We're going to work on that, but in the meantime—
You know what? You better hurry up, because Dale's about to get hurt, and it's all going to be your fault.
If you hurt Dale, this is not going to end the way that you wanted today.
Are you threatening me now, Michelle? Don't start giving me ultimatums. I'm the one in charge here, not you. You can tell the FBI to leave, and back up that police car. Get me a new car, and then we'll talk.
I have no idea what to do.
Okay, you're okay.
So you want a new car. Obviously, this one doesn't work. Got it. So the car you're currently in does not work.
All right, get me somebody else.
Michelle, this is G. End scenario.
Oh my God. Okay, so tell me everything I did wrong, and now I can get better.
Don't be so concerned about what you're saying. Be more concerned about demonstrating to the subject that you're listening to what he's saying, and then he's going to return to a more rational decision-making process. And then you'll be able to influence, in a positive way, the choices he makes. And I thought you demonstrated some good skills. You have a very compassionate, a very kind tone. You asked some good open-ended questions.
An open-ended question is simply a question that does not require a yes or no answer: who, what, where, when. Why is the one type of question we don't want to ask, because it can be somewhat judgmental. So if we ask an open-ended question, the subject is encouraged to talk. If they talk, they're venting. They're giving us information.
To practice this active listening technique, my next task is to participate in a role-play scenario called a back-to-back, where my goal is to communicate with someone in crisis and gather as much information as possible.
Hello. Hi, my name is Michelle, and I work with San Diego Police, and I'm here to help.
The police? Why are there police calling me? Who told you to call me? Was it Bob?
When you're communicating with someone, if you can make eye contact and see facial cues, communication is easier. But when you don't have that resource and you're back-to-back, you really have to focus exclusively on what the other party's saying.
Hello? Who's Bob?
One of my coworkers. He was the one that heard the fight. Was it Bob that called you? You know what? I hate him.
Maybe you could start by telling me what happened today.
I had a fight with my boss. What is the police business with that?
Tell me more about your boss. What's his name?
His name is Greg. He tries to take all the credit for all the work that I do. Why did Bob call? So Bob did call?
I don't know. It seems like you said earlier that he may have.
Well, he's just the only one, I think, that overheard our conversation.
Okay, we'll cut it right there.
That's so awkward.
I thought you did ask a lot of really good opening questions, trying to find out my boss's name and maybe what that fight was about. I think just keeping up with the open-ended questions, really trying to dig deep into what the actual issue is. And usually we try and find out what's happened in the previous 24 to 48 hours. That's usually where most of the emotion comes from.
The way that we can demonstrate that we're listening to them is through using these active listening skills. We have the acronym MORE PIES. You're going to get the opportunity to demonstrate some of these active listening skills.
And although there are eight techniques in total, Jeff had me focus on a select few that he finds to be the most effective, such as emotional labeling.
Emotional labeling is one of the more important active listening skills. It is demonstrating to that person that you have empathy for what they're experiencing. And a way that we can demonstrate an emotional label is, "Hey, I imagine that you feel trapped. I hear hopelessness in your voice."
He has a brain tumor. There's nothing they can do for him.
Sounds like you're feeling scared.
I'm completely lost. I don't know what to do. The doctor says that he has maybe a month left.
And if we're wrong in the emotion that we picked out, they'll correct us: "No, no, I'm not scared. I'm not hopeless. I'm..." And they'll fill that in. I have this little—we call it an emotional wheel. You've seen it?
This is a lot of therapy stuff. I didn't know hostage negotiation was going to be like we're talking about relationships, active listening.
These are some words that you can use that communicate those same types of emotion, so you're not rehashing, "You sound sad. You sound sad."
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And to demonstrate just how effective these techniques alone can be, Jeff brought me to a local bank similar to where my final challenge will be this week.
You're going to have the opportunity to respond to a bank robbery in process with hostages in a situation, a building similar to this, and you're going to be asked to resolve it so that nobody gets hurt.
Oh my gosh.
As FBI negotiators, we respond to bank robberies, and I wanted to share an experience that one of my colleagues had. The individual entered the bank, had a gun, took over the bank, and took hostages. We arrived on the scene. My colleague was the first one to negotiate with these subjects. What was really important in these negotiations were the open-ended questions. After about three or four hours of negotiation, the subject released the hostage and eventually surrendered peacefully.
So that's a huge win.
It's a huge win. I mean, it's a home run for us. And we did that via open-ended questions and then emotional labeling.
I've pulled some audio from some 911 calls, and we'll play those clips, and then I'll ask you to demonstrate an I-message. I-messages are a way that we can demonstrate that we approve or disapprove of a certain behavior or statement of the subject. We simply say, "I feel," insert our feeling, "when you," describe the behavior of the subject, "because," blank.
Okay. Okay, ready?
I feel hurt when you say that you're going to harm her because it's not necessary.
One that I might use would be, "I get nervous when you put the gun in her mouth because I don't want it to accidentally go off."
Okay.
What I'm trying to do is reframe his position. I know maybe you are posturing right now, but if that gun accidentally goes off, now you're in trouble.
Okay, ready?
I know I'm going to jail. I know it's going to be endangerment or whatever. I don't know what it's going to be, but it's going to be something, and I'd rather die. I back to gy, I back to—
All right. I feel sad when you say you'd rather die because I feel like we could work together to find a better solution.
Beautiful.
Jeff taught me five or six other techniques, and some of them are pretty simple, like mirroring, which is basically repeating the last few words that the subject just said to you.
Yeah, we don't get along.
You don't get along?
Why is life so unfair?
Life's unfair?
Sounds simple, but it's kind of like a Jedi mind trick where the other person feels heard, and they feel like they're on the same playing level as you. The media portrayal of a good negotiator is about being firm and stoic and loud. But what I'm realizing from Jeff is there's a way to take all of those principles and inject empathy.
I think when we communicate nowadays, it's so much about ourselves rather than really taking a genuine interest in the other person, giving them an opportunity to share some of their experiences and some of their feelings. And I think when people do that, they build much stronger relationships.
But before I'm allowed to attempt my final challenge, Jeff had just one last lesson to share.
This is the general area of a negotiation that I was involved with involving a service member. This was their third deployment in a space of about two and a half years, and they recently had a child. And the service member didn't want to be deployed again, and so they barricaded themselves in a garage with a handgun. Despite the immense efforts from our entire negotiation team, the service member decided to take their life. And it was a really traumatic experience for me because when that happened, I was side by side with this person's spouse. I can still hear the screams of their spouse. It was really hard.
How do you move forward as a negotiator from something like that?
We rely on our training. We rely on our team members and realize that, hey, look, we're out there because we care, and we're going to do everything we can to help influence that person to make the decision to live.
Sometimes you may say something that's wrong, or something you intend to say comes out the wrong way. It's hard. I almost kind of envision it, maybe a mountain, right? At the top of the mountain, you want them to do what you want them to do. You may think that you're almost to the top, and you say, inevitably, something stupid, which I've done. What happens is you fall all the way back down that mountain, and you got to start again from square one.
Breaking news: hostage situation at a bank. The SWAT team and hostage negotiators are responding to the credit union where a bank robber is still inside.
For my final challenge, I will be playing the lead negotiator responding to a mock hostage scenario at a local bank, and much like a
Real negotiation, I will not be able to see what's happening inside the bank, and I'll have to rely entirely on verbal communication through the phone and the members of my team. My mission: to get everyone out alive, and that includes the life of the hostage taker himself.
Place the call.
Hello. Hi there, my name is Michelle, and I'm with the police. I'm just calling to see if everything is okay.
No, everything's not okay. I came in—get your phone—get some money, and now I'm stuck in here with all these strangers that I don't know. We would all like to leave. I would like to go.
We're definitely on the same page. We want everyone to go home safely today.
Yeah, we certainly do. So why don't you get out of here, and we'll all just go away? Let us go home. Shut up.
What's your name? Who am I speaking to?
Joe. Joe? Yeah, Joe. Okay, thank you, Joe. Joe, what are your demands? What are you looking for? How do you want this to end today?
I want a car. I want the streets clear. I want to drive away. I have people that I could hurt. I have people who are probably going to get hurt if you don't do something. Get us out of this.
I am working on it.
All right. Where is the car, Michelle?
You have to understand it takes a long time to make these things happen.
No, Michelle, you have to understand that if I don't get that car, people are going to start getting hurt. You understand that?
Can't be here anymore, Joe. Can't be here anymore. Come on.
I know, Randy, I know you. Stop staring at me. Everybody look at the ground.
Joe, who is Randy?
Randy is an associate of mine. Stop looking at me. I'm—something is—this is not—
Joe, Joe, focus on me. Focus on me. Don't worry about Randy.
Everybody keep their eyes on the ground.
Joe, I feel really disappointed when I hear that people could get hurt, because I don't think that's the outcome that you want.
He hung up. Yeah, I don't really know where to go from here. This is so annoying.
Maybe you could ask, how did his morning start?
But when he's asking, like, why does any of this matter?
I'm just trying to understand what brought us here today. It does matter.
Okay. Okay.
Hello, Joe, it's Michelle again. We need to know how you ended up there today.
Why does that matter at all? I walked in with my legs. What are you talking about?
Joe, I know this is very overwhelming. The hard truth is you cannot leave until we find answers to these questions so everyone can go home safely. So please tell me why you came to the bank today. How much money were you going to withdraw?
I came to withdraw $20,000, Michelle. I have a chronic condition I would not like to go into with you at this time.
I appreciate you sharing that with me. I'm sorry you're going through that.
I don't care how you feel. I don't care about your feelings. I don't care about my feelings. I want to get out of here. Let's make it happen before something bad happens to these people.
I understand you want to get out of there, and I'm telling you that if you make that choice, it will not end the way that you want today.
Okay, are you threatening me? Look, Michelle, I'm not doing this with you. I'm going to give you, let's say, five minutes, and if a car isn't here, people are going to start getting hurt. You understand?
Where do we go from here? Where can we go?
The other people are clearly a distraction to you. How about we release them? Maybe try to talk about a couple emotions. What emotions do we think he could be feeling?
Bitter. Humiliated.
I don't really want to tell him that.
Disrespected. Trapped.
I like trapped. Trapped. I know you're feeling trapped, and I want to help you get out of this situation.
Yep. Okay. And then when he's talking, let him vent. Don't talk over him. Ready?
Yep.
Michelle, so how are we doing on a car?
I understand you want a car. How would you feel about releasing the other hostages?
I'm not going to give you any of them until you do one. I've asked for one thing, and you haven't delivered on one simple thing. Come on, shut up. I don't want to do anything that I don't have to do, and you are forcing my hand. I don't know why the is here. Shut up.
I'm not here.
I know you, Randy. I know you're not. I know you're not, buddy. I know. Okay, I just want to—
Hey, there's a pregnant lady here.
Michelle, let me level with you here. I have a pregnant woman here.
Well, Joe, is anyone hurt currently?
No, nobody is hurt, but I can't guarantee that moving forward if you don't listen to me. I don't know what—I'm the good guy here, okay? I have not hurt anyone. I came and I took some money.
Yeah, I hear that you're feeling trapped and probably claustrophobic in there. There's a lot going on and a lot of people.
I am feeling trapped and a little—I think people in here are a little worked up, and I would really like to get this resolved now.
We're not able to give you anything until you release all of the hostages. They're clearly a distraction from your plan. I know that you don't want to hurt them. I know that you didn't want to deal with them today. Go, and then you and I have a conversation about what you actually want.
Help me get rid of this pregnant woman, please.
Okay, well, would you be willing to release her?
I would very much like to release her, yes.
Okay, great. We're on the same page.
What now? The door.
All right, so I'm going to tell you exactly what you need to do. There should be nothing in her hands. There are going to be officers waiting outside just to escort her, but this will be unarmed.
An unarmed SWAT member. They're going to be armed.
We just made an agreement, and you're trying to break it right now.
I not a—I need this money, and I am walking away from here. I worked for 20 years. I need this money to keep going.
I know that you're a very smart man. If you worked for 20 years at a job, you sound very hardworking, and I know that's why you haven't yet hurt anyone and why you're not going to.
I'm—
Michelle, we're sending a hostage out.
Thank you so much. I know you're doing this because you're a smart and hardworking person. You did the right thing.
Try to calm yourself. You have him on the ropes, right? We're going to close this up, but remind him nobody is hurt. He's already released a pregnant woman. That shows that he has humanity. He's human inside. He was very concerned about—and the judge is going to take all of that into consideration.
Hello. Hi, Joe, it's Michelle again.
Hi, Michelle.
I wanted to say thank you so much for sending the hostage out. You're back with your family, and everyone is safe. They're okay. They're just fine.
Thank you.
And that's because of the choice you made. You seem like you've had experiences with the police before that may have not been very fun.
No, Michelle, I don't. I've experienced feeling like the whole system is stacked up against you. Twenty years. This, 20 years. I messed my back up while I was working, real bad. It's never been the same. I try to take pills, try to see doctors, try to make it better. Look, I need medicine. I need to make it, to live, you know? And I'm fired from this job, the job that screwed me over.
Where is that?
A plumbing company, Safe Water.
What did you do there?
I install water heaters. Okay, I hurt my back. I was lugging water heaters around 20 years. I hurt my back, okay? I earned this, and I need this. I just want a normal life like anybody. Help me out. Help me out here, Michelle. I don't—
You seem like a person that likes helping other people, and I know that's why you let the hostages go today and why you've helped so many people in their homes. Joe, do you have kids?
Yeah.
How old are they?
They're like six, nine.
They must look up to you a lot. You've provided so much for them.
What any good dad would have done. That's all.
I was just curious, what do you like to do with your kids? What are their names?
Ben and Sarah.
Ben and Sarah. Those are great names.
Listen, I still got these three people here, and I don't know what to do. Look, I don't want to hurt anyone.
We don't want to hurt you either.
Yeah, but if I let these people go, you're just going to come in and shoot us.
But we haven't come in yet. Every time that we've exchanged, we follow through, and we don't want to shoot you.
What—I mean, what do we get, a r, if we really—SM—
What you get is, if you think of Ben and Sarah, they won't have to know that this happened and that you have three people held captive inside. Think of them, because as of right now you're looking at a situation where the news might come, and everyone's going to hear that you are the person holding these people inside, and your kids, Ben and Sarah, are going to see this on the news.
But I don't want to stay my life in jail, Michelle. If we were to let these hostages go, I'd like a guarantee that maybe some kind of reduced sentence.
Well, I can't guarantee that, but the judge will see and hear that you haven't hurt anyone. The report will show exactly what you've said to me and exactly what I've said to you. It will include a transcript.
You promise?
I do.
All right. Yeah. Yeah, we'll send them out.
Thank you. Thank you, Joe. You're making the right choice. Joe, I want you to know that everyone makes mistakes, and you made the right choice today.
You did it!
Yes! Oh my God, that was the longest two hours and the shortest two hours of my life at the same time.
If you follow my commands, you will not be hurt. Take two steps to your left.
Why do you do this?
Again, I think we've all had challenges in our life, and I've been fortunate enough to have people that have helped me in the past when I've had difficult times. I want to pay it forward, and if I can do something that can help protect an innocent party, to save them from being exposed to violence, that's the ultimate of making a difference, right? Our motto at the crisis negotiation unit back at headquarters, Pax per colloquium, which basically means peace through conversation. And if we can do that, then, man, that's a win.
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