Bryan Johnson's 200°F Sauna Protocol: Early Vascular Gains, a Rough Adaptation, and Open Questions About Toxins
Bryan Johnson
In this episode of the Don't Die podcast, Bryan Johnson, Blueprint co-founder Kate Tolo, and Johnson's lead physician Dr. Mike Mallin discuss the new longevity protocol Johnson has started: daily dry sauna at 200°F. It follows their hyperbaric oxygen therapy (HBOT) experiment. The central question is whether an intervention with strong population-level evidence produces measurable changes in someone whose biomarkers are already heavily optimized, and what it costs to get there. Johnson was 18 sessions in when they recorded. They present early blood pressure data, describe a harder-than-expected adaptation period, and give practical guidance on temperature, hydration, materials, and who should avoid sauna.
A side-by-side sweat test that didn't mean what they first thought
The episode opens with an informal experiment. Johnson had been struggling with the protocol and wondered whether the experience was normal, so they invited Tolo to join a session. Tolo said they were nervous going in. The two had looked up that 200°F is hot enough to set an egg white in about 20 minutes. Tolo ended up finding the heat comfortable, "like being in the sun," and barely sweated during the 20-minute session. Johnson, sitting beside them, was sweating heavily and by Tolo's description almost shivering. Tolo thought their presence helped the time pass faster for Johnson.
Both wore a sweat patch on the forearm that measures sweat rate and the sodium content of sweat. Johnson's reading was 18 ounces of sweat in the session. Tolo's was close to nothing, which prompted jokes about broken sweat glands. Mallin noted that some people genuinely don't sweat.
Johnson later corrected the comparison. They had gone into that session straight after a hard workout, already warm and sweating. On the morning of the recording they skipped the workout because of a blood draw and entered the sauna at normal body temperature, and their sweat profile looked similar to Tolo's. Johnson concluded the original experiment overstated the difference between them. Still, the post-workout figure of 18 ounces per session mattered for later decisions about electrolyte replacement.
What the literature says, according to Mallin
Mallin said that when they started working with Johnson, sauna was the first thing they asked about, because they consider the literature "pretty impeccable" on chronic disease and longevity. Mallin cited roughly a 50–70% reduction in cardiovascular disease and dementia and about a 40% reduction in overall mortality. These figures come mostly from large studies in Finland, where sauna use is common, following thousands of people over years. The dose Mallin described is sitting in a hot room for about 20 minutes, four to seven times a week.
Johnson called sauna probably the closest thing to a magic pill, since most beneficial interventions require hard work and pain, and certainly easier than a 45-minute zone 2 workout. Mallin pushed back a little: at 200°F it is "not a walk in the park." Johnson agreed. They had owned a sauna years earlier and used it at 130–140°F. When the team reviewed the evidence, they found the clinically relevant range was 180–212°F, and chose 200°F. Johnson does controlled, meditative breathing in the sauna because breathing faster than normal feels like it sets the nose on fire. By minutes 16 and 17 they found themselves wondering whether they could finish. Johnson estimated it took about 14 sessions before the body began to acclimate. They attributed part of the difficulty to entering right after a workout.
Johnson also acknowledged a limitation: most of the evidence is observational, not from interventional clinical trials. They still found it compelling.
How heat is thought to work
Asked whether the benefits come from sweating, Mallin said sweat matters mainly for detoxification, since some toxins leave the body in sweat. Mallin described the predominant mechanism as the heat itself, through several pathways:
- Blood vessels. Heat increases nitric oxide production in the vessels, which forces them to dilate. They contract again after you leave the sauna. Mallin compared this to a workout for the blood vessels and said that over the long term it lowers blood pressure.
- Exercise mimicry. Heart rate rises to roughly zone 1, sometimes zone 2 depending on tolerance. Mallin called sauna an "exercise mimic."
- Heat shock proteins. A fever activates heat shock proteins, which Mallin described as chaperones that move proteins around and refold misfolded ones. Sauna activates them without illness, and they stay elevated after the session. Mallin likened this to the hormetic response seen with HBOT: the stressor is removed, but the benefit continues for hours to a day.
Johnson said the team had wanted to measure heat shock proteins but found it too hard logistically. According to the evidence Johnson cited, heat shock proteins 70 and 72 can rise two- to sixfold within 30–60 minutes. Some have short half-lives, which Johnson said is why repeated weekly use makes sense. Mallin added hormonal effects: growth hormone increases, cortisol falls, and inflammation drops. Mallin cited about a 30% reduction in CRP, calling it probably weaker than HBOT's effect but still marked.
The measurement plan and the first vascular results
Johnson stepped back to explain the context. The team had just published the HBOT results, which Johnson called potentially the most efficacious therapy they had ever done for whole-body rejuvenation. Sauna is the next target.
The baseline measurements included:
- a full blood panel of more than 100 markers, such as cholesterol, inflammation, and testosterone;
- vascular markers including SDMA, ADMA, and F2;
- a central blood pressure device, which Johnson uses each morning to track central systolic pressure, central pulse pressure, augmentation pressure and index, and SVR.
After seven sessions, Johnson reported:
- central systolic blood pressure fell from 103 to 97, about 5.8% lower;
- central pulse pressure fell from 28 to 22, a 21% improvement;
- augmentation pressure fell from 2 to 1.
Johnson interpreted these as less pressure on the heart, brain, and other organs, greater aortic flexibility, and reduced arterial stiffness. As Johnson put it, if you're a heart and your daily workload suddenly gets 5–20% easier, that is a big difference. Johnson added that they didn't yet know whether the changes would last or how much the measurements vary from day to day.
Mallin found the speed of the response the most striking part. The published studies ran for weeks, months, or years, so a response after seven sessions suggests the dose takes effect fairly quickly. Mallin saw this as encouraging for people with elevated blood pressure, though someone starting from hypertension might take longer to reach normal. For Johnson, Mallin expected the numbers to plateau rather than keep improving, since their blood pressure is already near ideal. Johnson agreed there's little room left: the composite vascular age estimate was 29 at baseline, and Johnson thinks it is now in the early 20s.
Where changes might still show up
Johnson asked whether the morning's large blood draw would show any sauna effect. Mallin doubted it, because Johnson's markers are already optimized. Mallin joked that putting an "Evening Bryan" in the sauna every night would be more likely to show changes. Inflammation markers were already very low.
Mallin pointed to other places the team is looking:
- Mitochondria. Sauna has been shown to increase mitochondrial biogenesis, the number of mitochondria per cell. The team is running mitochondrial tests and Moxy muscle-oxygen measurements before and after, to look for changes in oxygen use in muscle.
- Toxins. Mallin said they were most interested in toxins, because sweat is known to carry heavy metals, PFAS, and fat-soluble toxins. The team is running urine toxin tests before and after.
Tolo asked whether the test could show toxin exposures from the India trip and the LA fires coming down. Johnson said a follow-up after India had already shown a drop. The pre-sauna baseline now reflects their standard Los Angeles profile, with the same foods and air exposure. Johnson noted that their toxin strategy so far has been indirect: keep the body in good shape so it clears toxins well. Therapeutic plasma exchange, which replaced all their plasma, didn't move toxin levels much. This would be their first protocol focused specifically on removing toxins.
Johnson also mentioned that at recent blood draws, their blood came out at a higher velocity than they had seen in a long time, even through a smaller 23-gauge needle rather than the usual 21. Asked whether sauna might explain it, Mallin said it was possible given the changes in pulse wave velocity, augmentation index, and blood pressure, but didn't know.
Timeline
The protocol has no fixed end date. Johnson plans to reach 21 sessions, travel for three weeks, then return for another two to three weeks before retesting. This mirrors HBOT, where about 40 sessions were followed by travel and then 20 more. Johnson expects around 40–50 sessions in total, and Mallin noted this is comparable to the roughly 60 HBOT sessions done before retesting. Afterward Johnson may conclude the experiment and move on, on the reasoning that the trend line may be visible without going longer.
Mallin agreed this would be a good start. Based on the results so far, Mallin expects sauna to become a permanent part of Johnson's routine, probably four times a week, unless Johnson doesn't tolerate it or the bloodwork turns negative, which Mallin doesn't expect.
"It knocked me flat": the first two weeks
Tolo said they had never seen a protocol affect Johnson so much. Johnson described exhaustion that they attributed to going from no sauna straight to 200°F immediately after hard workouts. Sleep also suffered. Johnson said the sauna elevated their sympathetic nervous system, and they got less REM and deep sleep and woke in the night. Johnson had their first good night's sleep around day 15 and says things are now normalizing.
Mallin apologized on the podcast. Because Johnson normally takes every protocol without flinching, Mallin hadn't eased them in as they would with other clients. Mallin listed what they could have done: not go in right after exercise, start at 170°F and build to 200°F, start at three days a week and build to seven. Johnson said they appreciated it but that charging in is their style: the evidence was compelling, it was "a fun game to play," and if it meant enduring discomfort, all the better. Mallin pointed out that Johnson hadn't reported the problem. Johnson said they considered it a normal adaptation period rather than a side effect, and that they do report symptoms they think would change Mallin's decisions.
Mallin stressed that the sleep disruption goes against the data. Many of Mallin's past clients use sauna in the evening because the cooling afterward helps them fall asleep faster and improves deep sleep. Mallin said the evidence supports sauna helping sleep, and attributed Johnson's experience to the aggressive start. Johnson noted how much they have adapted since. One day the sauna had only reached 140°F, the temperature a colleague just starting out had set, and Johnson didn't feel anything or sweat in 20 minutes.
Icing the testicles and the scalp
Following the previous episode on sperm health, the team wanted to check whether Johnson could maintain fertility markers during daily heat exposure, since heat might reduce fertility. Johnson uses ice packs to keep the testicles cold during sessions and had just completed a semen sample. For the first few sessions they had nothing on their head, and the scalp became dry and irritated. They now wear a towel with an ice pad over the head, which Johnson says has eliminated the irritation.
Cramps and electrolytes
For the first three days, Johnson didn't replace enough electrolytes. The team is developing a Blueprint electrolyte product with self-sourced, tested ingredients. At the time Johnson was taking a few hundred milligrams of sodium, roughly 100–200 mg of potassium, and 60–100 mg of magnesium. Johnson then had what they called the most intense cramps of their life, waking at night and having to jump out of bed to walk them off, repeatedly.
After Johnson reported this, Mallin asked whether they were a "salty sweater," someone who leaves salt rings after workouts. Johnson hadn't noticed any and assumed not. The Gatorade sweat patch settled it. In a 20-minute post-workout session at 200°F, Johnson produced 18 ounces of sweat containing roughly 29–36 mg of sodium per ounce, so about 600–700 mg of sodium lost per session. The team recalculated the ratios of sodium, potassium, and magnesium, and the cramps have stopped.
The protocol as it stands, and what Mallin suggests for others
Tolo summarized Johnson's current routine:
- Finnish-style dry sauna at 200°F (about 93°C), 20 minutes daily;
- ice on the head and testicles;
- done in the morning rather than evening, because of their own sleep disruption, though the science doesn't show this applies to everyone;
- about 40 ounces of fluid, 20 before and 20 after, with half the electrolytes taken before and half after.
Mallin said this is easy to replicate. About 500 mg of sodium is probably reasonable for most people, and a sweat patch can help calibrate it. Around 36 ounces of water is reasonable for a heavy sweater doing 20 minutes at 200°F. Mallin joked that Tolo might need about one ounce.
On dosing, Mallin said the outcome data for cardiovascular disease, dementia, and mortality show a linear dose-response relationship. One session a week is good and seven is better, at least according to the data. Mallin personally uses a garage sauna at about 180–190°F. Mallin has seen it reach 212°F, at which point "your eyes feel like they're melting," and suspects there are diminishing returns at that level. Mallin manages two to three sessions a week but aims for four or more, since the data suggest four is where the impact becomes strong.
Dry vs. wet. Johnson explained the definitions: a dry sauna runs at 10–20% relative humidity, while a wet sauna approaches 100%. A Finnish sauna is 176–212°F at 10–20% humidity. The team concluded that dry sauna has much more evidence behind it and is probably the more robust therapy.
Infrared. Mallin said infrared saunas mostly top out around 140–150°F, some at 155°F. Advocates argue infrared heat penetrates deeper, which Mallin finds hard to believe. Mallin said research supports dry sauna more, and that the difference is obvious in the body: uncomfortable in a 200°F dry sauna, nothing happening in a 150°F infrared one.
Who should be cautious, and alternatives
Mallin listed groups who should take care:
- Pregnant people should not use sauna, just as they shouldn't use hot tubs.
- People with unmanaged cardiovascular disease should consult their clinician first.
- People who struggle with electrolyte shifts, such as those with POTS, should be very careful. Blood moves from the central circulation to the tissues as the body cools itself, which can cause dizziness and lightheadedness.
Mallin's general advice was not to copy Johnson's start. Ease in and see how you feel.
For people without access to a sauna, Mallin named exercise as the best alternative. Almost every mechanism sauna activates, including heat shock proteins, higher core temperature, and BDNF, exercise also activates. If forced to pick only one, Mallin would choose exercise over sauna. Johnson already has exercise optimized, so sauna adds heat on top. Mallin said hot baths and hot tubs have decent though less thorough evidence, since they raise body temperature quickly and likely activate heat shock proteins through a similar mechanism. Mallin also mentioned research on contrast showers, alternating hot and cold, which may produce similar vascular-exercise effects.
Johnson said they were impressed that sauna seemed to add gains on top of exercising hard seven days a week, despite the overlapping mechanisms. Johnson believes the team has maxed out nutrition, supplementation, and exercise, and sauna appears to address a piece of vascular health they couldn't otherwise reach.
HRV, and hoping for surprises like HBOT's
Mallin pointed out that Tolo had a significant HRV bounce after the joint session. Tolo said this has happened throughout their life: HRV spikes the day after a sauna. Tolo's HRV usually fluctuates widely in step with their menstrual cycle, and they want to test whether sauna can stabilize the dips in the luteal phase. Mallin found the idea plausible because sauna produces some parasympathetic activation.
Johnson hopes sauna will turn up unexpected findings, as HBOT did. Johnson listed HBOT's surprises: large changes in the microbiome, including short-chain fatty acids, Akkermansia, and butyrate; a 238% increase in vitamin D on the same supplementation; and a 28% drop in p-tau217, which Johnson described as recently FDA-approved as the first blood marker for Alzheimer's. Johnson said the team needs to check how variable that measurement is, but still called it a massive drop. It was not something Johnson had associated with HBOT for a healthy person. Johnson finds this "long tail" of benefits, beyond what a therapy is known for, especially interesting.
Mallin agreed that p-tau217 and the microbiome should be retested after sauna, but warned that Johnson's markers, including a microbiome now very good after HBOT, leave little room to detect change. Mallin called it "a good problem to have." Because sauna increases BDNF, Mallin also suggested another brain scan with the Kernel device after 50–60 sessions. Johnson said they would start daily Kernel measurements. The helmet uses brain blood oxygenation as a proxy for neural firing and currently reports a brain age. Johnson said Kernel is building a broader panel covering processing speed, memory, and language.
Clothing, glyphosate, and what's in the air and water
Tolo asked whether Johnson should use the sauna nude rather than wearing clothing that might contain polyester. Mallin said to avoid plastics; wool or cotton would probably be fine, but in a private backyard sauna, going without clothes does no harm.
Johnson connected this to the team's recent glyphosate testing. One test found an alarmingly high level in a diaper. Johnson reasoned this makes sense because materials grown with herbicide end up in products that escape scrutiny since they aren't eaten. Johnson added that there isn't good evidence on how much glyphosate the skin absorbs, so several steps are needed to judge the risk. Johnson described glyphosate as a broad-spectrum herbicide used for crops such as soybeans, corn, canola, and cotton. In the joint session Johnson had worn cotton shorts and underwear to hold the ice packs. Tolo raised the concern that cotton could contain glyphosate and that heat plus skin contact might mean unexpected dosing. Mallin agreed: many of these chemicals are fat-soluble, sweat and skin oils can help them move through the skin, and heat raises concerns about reactivity. Mallin's view was that less is better.
Tolo recalled that the team had been careful to choose a sauna with good air quality, since cheap woods or glues can release fumes when heated. Johnson said this unit was tested before delivery and they want to retest it. Mallin has tested their own sauna, which was fine, and worries mainly about manufacturing plastics burning off in the heater. Johnson said several sauna companies they approached refused to run air-quality tests. Johnson couldn't say whether that was just unwillingness to make the effort, but said it is something buyers should keep in mind.
Mallin raised a concern they said they hadn't seen studied: pouring water on sauna rocks. If the water comes from the tap, whatever is in it is vaporized into the air you breathe, and Mallin said PFAS are present in essentially every water system. Mallin's own choice is no water on the rocks, strictly dry. Johnson agreed this is easy to overlook. Based on the team's water testing, most city tap water carries baseline contaminants, and reverse osmosis systems do much better. Johnson said the team still needs to publish its before-and-after data on this.
After the sweat: showering, reabsorption, and testing sweat
Mallin recommends showering immediately after sauna. Beyond hygiene, Mallin said metals, plastic chemicals, and PFAS have been found in sweat at 10–20 times their urine concentration, and showering removes them before they can be reabsorbed. Johnson wipes off sweat with a towel during sessions on the theory that sweat left on the skin gets reabsorbed. Mallin thought sweat flow at that point is essentially one-directional and doubted the practice matters as much as the shower afterward, but said they couldn't refute it.
Johnson asked listeners for help finding a company that tests sweat for toxins. The team wants per-session excretion data, not just before-and-after blood levels. Mallin joked about sending sweat in as a urine sample. Johnson noted that 18 ounces is about the volume of a urine sample, but everyone agreed a lab checking creatinine would immediately flag it as not urine. They decided to contact a lab directly about the experiment, find out the minimum sample volume, and work out how to collect sweat from the whole body, which would also contain skin cells. The team is also routinely testing for microplastics in blood and PFAS.
Personal habits and a detour into sun damage
Tolo doesn't currently use sauna, though they have space for one on their roof and want to see Johnson's results first. Tolo loves the heat, which led to a discussion of growing up in Australia with constant sun exposure. On a recent visit home, Tolo saw a UV index of 13, which they called an ordinary day there. When Tolo's sister visited Johnson's house, the team's multispectral skin imaging showed significant UV damage, consistent with the sisters' shared youth of midday tanning. Tolo now avoids the sun, while the sister still seeks it out daily. Mallin's skin age matched their chronological age, with the left side two years older from sun exposure while driving. Mallin's other aging tests typically come in seven or eight years younger.
Johnson described trying to persuade their 15-year-old daughter, Genevieve, about sun exposure. Johnson framed it not as vampire-like avoidance but as acknowledging a trade-off: sun feels good and being tan carries social value in her world, but it has a cost later. She reported proudly that she had spent three hours in the sun with sunscreen, then added that she had also spent two hours without it and felt fine, and didn't see the difference. She also assumed adults have treatments that fix skin damage. Johnson told her that sagging, wrinkling, and discoloration are complicated and the available fixes don't really work. She replied she would just get new skin. Johnson admitted maybe that would be possible in ten years. Johnson said they think they are losing the argument. Mallin suggested the seeds might take hold in her early twenties.
Tolo noted the difficulty of balancing concern about aging against simply wanting to be healthy, and said the goal is to feel and act one's best rather than to fear sagging skin. Johnson agreed and located the tension in social defaults. When the norm favors heavy sun exposure, not following it makes you seem weird and feel like you're missing out. Johnson said there is an appropriate amount of sun, not too much and not too little. In Johnson's view, Asia has found that balance better, while America leans toward "leather skin." This off-center default, Johnson argued, pushes people into a false binary between living life and protecting their health.
Closing: the larger frame
Johnson ended by explaining why they do these protocols. It is not because they think any of this will let them live forever. Johnson believes that if we care about ourselves and the human race continuing to exist, humanity needs to "turn away from death in all of its forms" and find new sources of meaning. Johnson said daily practices like sauna sit inside that larger context and didn't want listeners to feel torn between everyday choices and the bigger picture.
The sauna experiment itself remains unfinished. The early blood pressure changes are in, but mitochondrial, toxin, fertility, brain, and follow-up blood results await the post-travel retest. Sweat toxin testing depends on finding a lab willing to do it.
When I was going through this, I was like, I'm destroyed. And I thought, is this normal? So, I called Kate and I was like, Kate, do you want to come over and do sauna? So, I wanted to get her experience and see like if she was using me as a guinea pig essentially. Like, is this as bad for you as it is for me?
So, I was like, what am I walking into? I was kind of scared cuz, and that's the other thing I asked. I was like, is this safe? Like, 200° F is insanely hot. Like Bryan and I looked it up and what, it takes 20 minutes to cook an egg in that. Yeah. If you put an egg in there, it's hot enough where the white actually solidifies. And so I was kind of a little bit nervous.
Kate's not sweating, sitting there completely comfortable. Bryan's over here like sort of like shivering, sweating. Yeah, I think I made the time go much quicker for Bryan because it was like someone else there to distract him in the 20 minute sprint.
Hi everybody. Welcome to the Don't Die Podcast with Bryan Johnson. Today we're talking about sauna and how all you have to do is step into this little box, get all hot and sweaty, and magical things happen to your body. But there are things you want to be aware of before you start your sauna protocol. So hang out with us today. We're looking forward to it.
Bryan, it looks like you're in a cave. Looks very dark through there. It does, huh? Yeah. This is why people think you're a vampire. I feel like we should all be in a sauna, not in our regular setup. I agree with you. Just be chilling in the sauna, or maybe that's the wrong terminology. Baking, basking. Yeah. Or to be sweating in the sauna. We should have set it up, you know.
But Kate did the sauna with me this week and we were assessing her sweat capacity because I measured mine and she didn't sweat at all. And this is 200° Fahrenheit sauna. So very hot. For how long? Like 20 minutes. 20 minutes. You didn't sweat at all. Yeah. And so now we wonder, is there something wrong with me? Mike, broken sweat glands? There are people who don't sweat. That's the thing. I'm not one of them, unfortunately.
You know, I did correct for this because I got into the sauna today. I had the blood draw this morning and so I didn't get in my morning workout, but I did the sauna session and so I got into the sauna without having worked out and my body temperature was normal and my sweat profile was similar to what Kate had. And so I think the results of the experiment were wrong because I had just finished with a pretty robust workout. So I was already warmed up. I was already sweating and then I went straight into the sauna.
So I don't think the results were as significant as we initially thought, my results, but still, having worked out and in the sauna, I was sweating 18 ounces of fluid for that duration of time. And then Kate, yeah, I mean, you barely broke a sweat.
Yeah. So, what Bryan's telling us is about this patch that you put on your arm that actually measures the speed at which you sweat and then also measures the salt content of your sweat, which can be super helpful if you're, you know, implementing a 7-day sauna protocol out of nowhere and then all of a sudden sweating a bunch and having to replace a lot of electrolytes.
Yeah. So, today we're going to be talking about sauna top to bottom. And Bryan, you've just started a new sauna protocol. So we can talk about early results maybe that you've been experiencing or how the experience has been. We're still in the midst of it. So we'll be updating everyone later on. But let's cover what the literature says. Let's cover a couple of things that people need to know in terms of how to get a sauna, what optimal sauna is, dry, wet, steam sauna.
So yeah, what did you guys discover when you looked at all the literature? This is something that's accessible in a lot of places. Gyms particularly have saunas. So yeah, what do we discover? Is sauna good? Mike, that's for you. Give us the rundown. I didn't know if Bryan wanted to start that one or not. I'll do it. Yeah, I'm on it.
I love sauna. Sauna is like, I feel like as soon as I started working with Bryan, I was like, why aren't we doing sauna? It's so ingrained in me at this point because the literature for sauna is pretty impeccable in terms of the impact it can have on chronic disease and on longevity. So we're talking about, you know, on average around 50 to 70% reduction in cardiovascular disease, reduction in dementia, and then about a 40% reduction in overall mortality.
And these are from some really robust studies that have mostly come out of Finland, which is where sauna is very, very popular, so it makes sense that they're performing these studies. But you know, 2,000, 3,000, thousands of people in these studies tracked over years, really large impacts. So for really relatively low effort, all you got to do is go sit in a warm box for 20 minutes, you know, anywhere between four and seven times a week and get these huge impacts, is pretty cool.
Yeah, that's actually true, Mike. Most things that are good for you require a lot of hard work. They require you to endure quite a bit of pain. And this is probably the closest one to a magic pill. Sit here, sweat, and maybe feel slightly uncomfortable, but otherwise it can be pretty soothing depending upon what temperature you're at. But you're right. I hadn't thought about that, but it's probably one of the easier entry points for health.
It's certainly easier than going and doing like a 45-minute long VO2 workout, right? I mean, big difference. But you did comment it could be a little uncomfortable. Sauna's pretty uncomfortable when you get to 200 degrees, right? I mean, it's not a walk in the park.
Yeah. Actually, I was really surprised. So, I had been in a sauna. I had a sauna years ago that I occasionally did and I believe I was at 130 to 140 Fahrenheit, and I don't recall how I arrived at that number. But yeah, when we looked at the evidence, I think it said that the range for the clinical benefits was between 180 degrees Fahrenheit and 212. So we chose 200.
And yeah, it is hot. In fact, when you're in the sauna, if you don't do controlled breathing... So I do this meditative practice in the sauna and if you breathe more than a normal pace through the nose, it lights your nose on fire. Like if you just move air a little bit faster. And by minute like 16, 17, you're like, can I do this? I mean, it gets to be pretty tough. Panic. Yeah.
So that was definitely the case. I'm now 18 sessions in and my body has definitely adjusted. It took me at least two weeks, like 14 sessions, to just begin to be acclimated. But yeah, 200 degrees is hot, and especially I do it right after a workout. So I'm already really hot. So I think the combination, that's why it was so difficult for my body to begin that process.
Mike, do we know how it works? Like is this about sweating from the body or is this some other sort of mechanism going on? So sweat is part of it. The sweat is going to play in when it comes to this idea of detoxifying your body, and the idea is basically you're sweating out some of these toxins, but the predominant mechanism that we're seeing here is actually from the heat itself.
And the heat is causing different chemical changes in your body. So you're increasing nitrous oxide production in your vessels, which is forcing your blood vessels to dilate. So it's almost like working out your blood vessels. They're dilating. They're contracting back when you get out of the sauna. You're getting sort of this workout of your blood vessels, which helps reduce blood pressure. So over the long term we see a reduction in blood pressure.
You also see a heart rate increase. So it's like doing zone one, sometimes zone two, depending on what your tolerance is, type of activity. So it's what we call an exercise mimic. So it mimics exercise while you're sitting there just being hot.
And then there's other things that are happening too. So when you're sick, your body creates a fever, right? One of the things that fever does is it activates these chemicals called heat shock proteins. And heat shock proteins are called these chaperones of proteins, which means they kind of usher proteins around and help them move around your body. And they also help fix any misfolding of those proteins.
So when you're sick, you know, some of your proteins get messed up. Your heat shock proteins come around, they refold those proteins for you. They help them work better basically. So these heat shock proteins have lots of benefits and sauna is a nice way to activate them without actually having to have a fever. So you go sit in the sauna for 20 minutes, it activates all your heat shock proteins, you leave the sauna, your heat shock proteins are still elevated.
So we're seeing a similar sort of hormetic response that we saw with HBOT, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, where we had this negative insult of hyperoxygenation, right? Similar sort of thing where now we remove the negative insult but we're getting the continued benefit that it's created in the body over hours to a day after the sauna session.
Yeah, those heat shock proteins, we were looking at measuring those. It was too hard for us to do it logistically, but some of the evidence points to heat shock protein 70 and 72 can experience a two to sixfold increase in circulating levels within 30 to 60 minutes. And so they've got a pretty short half-life, some of these, but yeah, you get these really big spikes post use, which makes sense when you do it repeatedly on a weekly basis.
There's also some hormone effects too. So you see growth hormone increase with sauna use. You see cortisol reduction and you can see reduction in inflammation. So CRP has been shown to go down with sauna as well. So probably not as strong as HBOT, but still a marked, like 30% reduction in CRP from sauna use, which is pretty cool.
So Mike, we did a big blood draw this morning. Do you think that after I guess 18 sessions we would expect any changes in my blood markers? I doubt it. Because your blood markers are so optimized already. I think if we were starting from a different position, like if we took Evening Bryan and put Evening Bryan in the sauna every evening, maybe we would see some changes.
But given where you're currently at right now, I think it's gonna be hard to measure anything remarkable on the actual blood tests themselves. I think if we were measuring heat shock proteins, we would see something, but that's too hard to do. And I do think it sounds like we're seeing something on your actual blood pressure as well. So yeah, we're seeing changes, challenging to measure when it comes to like CRP or some of your hormones which are already pre-optimized.
Mhm. I mean, one thing I did notice is at the blood draw this morning, my blood flow, the phlebotomist used a 23 gauge needle, which is, you know, smaller than the typical 21 they use for these kinds of draws, and my blood just came spurting out. And this was also true, I did another blood draw earlier this week, and same thing, at a higher velocity than I think I've seen my blood come out in a long time. Do you think that has anything to do with sauna?
I don't know. I mean, it's possible. We have seen some changes in your pulse wave velocity, your augmentation index, all those things in your blood pressure. You have seen a slight drop in your blood pressure. So I guess it's certainly possible.
What I'm super interested in seeing actually is some of the toxin levels, because we do know that there is an increased excretion of some of the heavy metals and then also like PFAS and some of the fat-soluble toxins in sweat. So the increased sweating, you're already sweating a good bit with exercise, but markedly more with sauna, right? I mean, you're having to hydrate more. So we expect to see an increased excretion of some of those toxins.
Yes. So, I guess maybe to back up, we jumped right into the details. So, yes. Okay, everyone, we started a brand new longevity protocol. This is the follow-up. We just completed hyperbaric oxygen therapy and we published those results, and the data we got from that was potentially the most efficacious therapy we have ever done in terms of whole body rejuvenation. Just from head to toe, there was something interesting throughout the entire body.
And so, we've now set our sights on sauna. And so as Mike was saying, the evidence around sauna is really good. There's been some limitations in that most of the evidence is observational and not interventional, where you set up a clinical trial, but still it's very compelling. And so, as we do with all things, we completed a pretty robust baseline measurement.
Okay. For baseline measurements we did a full blood panel. So that's over a hundred different markers and they're the things you would expect like cholesterol, inflammation, testosterone, you know, things like that. We also did a few vascular health markers including SDMA, ADMA, and F2.
We also got a central blood pressure device. So this is like you're getting your blood pressure done at the doctor. They put the cuff on, but this one does central blood pressure. It's looking at the following things. It's looking at central systolic blood pressure, central pulse pressure, augmentation pressure, and then something called SVR. And so I've been doing that on a regular basis, measuring myself in the morning, and that gave us a nice baseline.
Actually, we can go over those baseline measurements. So, we have here the measurement from baseline and then we have a measurement with seven sessions. And you see for example in central blood pressure there was almost a 6% improvement. I started at 103 and after seven sessions was down to 97. Central pulse pressure went down from 28 to 22, a 21% improvement. And then you see the other ones like the augmentation pressure, augmentation index. Mike, what's your take on, after seven sessions, some pretty meaningful changes in vascular health?
Pretty impressive. I mean, this is what we've seen in a lot of the studies, although all the studies were much longer duration. You know, they were weeks to months of observational data, sometimes even years. So we saw pretty remarkable changes in blood pressure. But the fact that we saw this after seven sessions is pretty awesome actually, because it really suggests that the actual dose happens relatively quickly.
So, you know, while it might take longer for someone who's coming from a place of hypertension to get to a place of normal blood pressure, the fact that there's actually a response this quickly is really encouraging for the idea of sauna being a relatively quick treatment for elevated blood pressures.
Yeah. And to give context on what these things mean, for example, when the central systolic blood pressure comes down from 103 to 97, it means that there's 5.83% less pressure around my heart and my brain and other organs throughout my body. When my central pulse pressure drops from 28 to 22, it's a 21% increase in the flexible aorta. So it's less load on my heart. And then the augmentation pressure change from 2 to 1 indicates a decrease in arterial stiffness. So it's like an increase in aortic compliance.
And so these are really big numbers. I mean, if I'm a heart and I'm going about my daily activities and all of a sudden my life gets, you know, five to 20% better, that's a really big difference on my daily activity being a heart. So I wonder if these will sustain, or I wonder, you know, over various measurements, how much variance we'll see within the measurement, but yeah
pretty significant. Yeah, I wonder if we end up just seeing consistency with it after this point. So, we've seen our initial drop and now it's just a matter of continuing that regular dose of sauna in order to keep the blood pressure metrics about the same, because really we wouldn't expect much more improvement. There's not much more improving you can do really, right Bryan? Like you don't want your blood pressure much lower, right? It's already relatively ideal. So, I'd be surprised if we see much more improvement rather than just continuation.
Yeah. And also for context, my baseline markers on vascular health with the data, it was I think roughly mid to late 20s, I think, was the biological age estimates. Yeah, it was actually 29 years old was the composite score for the various vascular age. I think with this drop, it's down to like early 20s as a vascular. So yeah, there's not much more room for me to go. You're right. I'm not coming at this from a really bad position.
So yeah, but there are some areas that we might see some changes. So in the basic blood panel that you did, all the markers that we normally check, your inflammation markers were all really low. I doubt we're going to see much change there, but one area we might see some change is around mitochondrial function. So sauna has been shown to increase mitochondrial biogenesis, which increases the number of total mitochondria in each cell. So by tracking your mitochondria we may see some changes there, and we're doing mitochondrial tests. We're also doing Moxy before and after the sauna. So we'll see if there's a change in oxygen utilization within the muscle, which would speak to mitochondrial function as well. And then we're doing a urine tox test before and after. So we'll see if there's any changes into any of those fat-soluble vitamins.
That'll be interesting. Is the toxicity report... I know when we went to India and also the LA fires we experienced some toxins that came back in urine. Is this something we'd be able to test as well? Is that what that toxin report will show us, whether or not we'll be able to get some of those toxins out of Bryan's body?
Yeah, we did a follow-up after India and we saw a drop. So, we've got a baseline now pre-sauna that is more a standard Bryan's-in-LA kind of, you know, toxic profile, same foods, same air exposure, and then we'll see how that changes after sauna.
Very interesting. I agree the toxins will be interesting because I guess the toxin mitigation strategy we've had so far is when the body, you know, is in a good shape with low inflammation, exercising, eating good foods, the body is optimized to remove toxins, but we've not done anything specifically. We did that therapeutic plasma exchange where we replaced all my plasma, but we didn't really see much movement on toxins for that. So this will be, I think, the first focused toxin removal protocol that we'll put to test.
And then what is your protocol, Bryan? So, you're day 18. How many days are you going to be doing this?
We didn't really set a specific time frame on it. We begin traveling this coming Monday and we'll be out for basically three weeks. So, this is what happened with HBOT as well: I think we had something like 40 sessions and then we traveled to India and China and then I came back and we did 20 additional sessions with two weeks off. So, same here. I'll get up to 21 sessions. Then we'll travel for 3 weeks. Then I'll come back and we'll do an additional two to 3 weeks. Then we'll take the measurements again and we'll see where it's at. At that point, we may just conclude that we've basically given this a go. We'll analyze the data and then we may move on to another therapy because, like Mike's saying, we may be able to max out or at least get a trend line on the benefits without going much longer. Maybe Mike, what's your take? Do you think that these 3 weeks, 3 weeks break, then initial two to three weeks would give us a good assessment of this therapy?
I think so. I think it'd give us a good start. We're not looking for huge changes here. We've already seen some positive change. The data here is really good, you know, in terms of expected improvements or expected reduction in risk. So I think this is something we're going to want to continue doing just based on what we've seen so far, unless we see, you know, you not tolerate it for some reason or, you know, negative changes in your blood work, which I wouldn't expect. I would expect we probably end up with like, this is a four times a week thing and we're just going to keep doing this.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean the first two weeks it really knocked me flat. I felt
I've never seen a protocol affect you as much as the sauna did, actually, wildly enough.
Yeah. I mean, I just felt exhausted and it was probably because going from zero sauna to working out really hard and then getting in the sauna when I'm already very hot and going straight into 200 degrees Fahrenheit, and yeah, so it was exhausting. And then it also disrupted my sleep and so I didn't have good rest for two weeks because it elevated my sympathetic nervous system and I got less REM, less deep. I would wake up in the middle of the night. I had my first good night's sleep I think on day 15, but I'm now starting to normalize, but yeah, it was pretty disruptive in the very beginning.
But yeah, so the protocol is every day for 20 minutes. And then we've also been mindful that we've been measuring sperm health, as we discussed on the previous episode. And we were curious if we were able to maintain similar levels of fertility health while doing the sauna, because there's a possibility that the heat would diminish my fertility. And so I've been using these ice packs that I have to keep the testicles cold during the sauna session. And then I also, for the first few sessions, I didn't have anything on my head and my scalp got irritated, a little dry. And so now I put a little towel over my head and I put this ice pad over my head. And so I'm now icing my head and my testicles. And that seems to have eliminated the irritation of my scalp. And we just completed a semen sample.
Actually, you're icing all the spheres at once.
Bryan, I feel kind of bad about the protocol. So I'm surprised, to be honest with you. I'm surprised that this affected you so much because you have not flinched at every other thing we've thrown at you. So normally I would ease someone into sauna, but because I've got this experience with you now and you're like, whatever, yes, I'm doing this, like you're just on it. I didn't expect you to get so rocked by this one. So my apologies. We could have eased you into this. We could have not done it right after exercise, because that makes it way harder. We could have started at 170 and then worked our way up to 200. We could have done three days a week and then worked up to seven. Like, sorry, man.
I appreciate that, Mike. Yeah. You know, it's kind of Bryan style to go.
It is. Like, you know, you started doing this prep. The evidence is so compelling and it's such a fun game to play. I just really couldn't help myself. Like, I just wanted to go. And so, yeah, I appreciate the gesture. Also, I was kind of in it. And if it required enduring some pain and discomfort, like all the better.
Also, I'm just hearing about this now. It's not like you called me and I was like, keep pushing. Like, yeah. You're just...
No, that's true, actually. I really don't complain much about anything. I just kind of endure it, and maybe I should speak up. I guess I didn't think this was a side effect that was necessarily worth reporting to you. I thought it was just part of the adaptation period. But otherwise, you know, when I do experience something that I think is a potential side effect that would change how you process information, I do try to report that back. But I just thought, like, this is just typical adaptation period.
Yeah. And I think it is. And I think if people don't want that type of adaptation period, they can just slow it and delay it by easing themselves into sauna, because really if you do it slowly, sauna is very forgiving. Like, you know, I think a lot of people feel like they sleep better with sauna. So you're talking about sleeping worse, but a lot of the clients I've worked with in the past actually like sauna in the evening because it helps them cool their body temperature and helps them get into sleep a little bit faster. So it decreases sleep latency, improves deep sleep. So the data would actually support sauna helps sleep, not sauna hurts sleep. But it's just because we've been super aggro about it that you've had this sleep disruption.
Yeah. And Talmage, I see, yesterday started doing sauna for the first time and he's starting at 140. I gave him the caveat of just, hey, be mindful, like you want to step into this. So he did 140. So, I turned the sauna on and when I got finished working out, I went out there and I was like, "Oh, damn. It's 140, not 200." You preached the temperature. I was like, "I don't have enough time to wait for it to heat up to 200." So, I was like, "I'll just do it." And I got in at 140 and I was like, I don't feel anything. Is this thing even on? So, it's pretty amazing to see how fast my body's adapted to this heat. And like 140 wouldn't even make me flinch. I mean, I took 20 minutes. I don't think I worked up a sweat for the entire time.
So, infrared, you know, infrared sauna is only getting to about 140, 150, right? There's a few of them that get to 155. And the argument from infrared sauna people is that it's getting deeper into your body, but it's hard to believe. I mean, one, there's the research that suggests that dry hot sauna is better, or is at least more supported in the research than infrared. But you get in a 150-degree infrared sauna and then you compare that to a 200-degree dry sauna, you can feel the difference. Like your body is uncomfortable in one and totally chilling like nothing's happening in the other.
A lot of people are asking the difference between a dry sauna and wet. And so the dry sauna, this is a definition, is 10 to 20% relative humidity, whereas a wet sauna, you're approaching 100% humidity. So that's the primary difference. And then the Finnish sauna is between 176 and 212 with the 10 to 20% relative humidity. And so I think the conclusion here was there's a lot more evidence on dry sauna than there is wet sauna, and that the dry sauna is actually probably the more robust therapy.
And then can you talk about... so Bryan, you were experiencing cramps in the middle of the night. Can you talk about your rehydration protocol?
Yeah. Yes. For the first three days I did not replenish enough with electrolytes. So, we've been making this Blueprint electrolyte product because, like all things, we want to source our own ingredients and test them and not be subject to other people's processes. And we were trying to figure out how much I would need for sodium intake and potassium and magnesium. And so I was supplementing a few hundred milligrams of sodium, and then I think it was like 100 or 200 of potassium, 60 to 100 of magnesium, somewhere around there. And I started having these intense, like the most intense cramps I've ever had in my life. I would wake up and just have to jump out of bed because it was excruciating and walk it off, and it just happened repeatedly.
And so then I reported the side effect to Mike, and Mike was suggesting first we need to get a baseline, because Mike was asking me, am I a salty sweater or not? And he said, you know, if you're a salty sweater, then after you work out you have rings of salt, and I don't have that, at least I haven't noticed that. And so I was speculating that I wasn't a salty sweater. But then we used this patch made by Gatorade that you put on your inner forearm, and it measures your actual sweat rate and your sodium content in your sweat. And so in a 20-minute session at 200 after I worked out, I generated 18 ounces of sweat. And then my sodium was between 29 mg and 36, thereabouts, for every ounce. So for a 20-minute session of sauna, I was somewhere in between 6 and 700 milligrams of sodium that my body would excrete in sweat. And so then we mapped that out and then we mapped the electrolyte intake for the right ratios of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. And they've since gone away. So we've got back into electrolyte balance, but I was not balanced initially.
So to recap all that, it's a dry sauna, Finnish style, 200° F, which is around 93 C. You do 20 minutes every day. You wear an ice pack on your head and on your balls, and you rehydrate with electrolytes immediately afterwards. Do you also drink beforehand? And then you do morning sauna, it sounds like, and not evening because it disrupted your sleep. Yeah. But the science doesn't say that that's necessarily true for everyone. So, and then are you drinking water beforehand?
Yes, I drink a total of, I guess, 40 ounces. 20 before and 20 after. So, I do half of the electrolytes before and half after.
And Mike, is that a protocol that someone at home could replicate for themselves?
Totally. Yeah, it's relatively easy. I think you might want to play around with the salt a little bit or do one of those salt measuring stickers from Gatorade. But you know, somewhere around 500 milligrams of salt is probably reasonable for most people. You definitely want to be on the upper end of water. You know, around 36 ounces is reasonable if you're doing 20 minutes at 200 degrees and you're a heavy sweater. It sounds like, Kate, you need 1 ounce of water afterwards somehow. I don't... maybe salt, negative salt. But the idea is there's a linear relationship between dose and effect here. So the more dose you get, the greater the effect, at least for outcome data, for cardiovascular disease, for dementia, for mortality, all those things. So one sauna session a week is good. Seven sauna sessions a week is better, right? So it truly is the more the better in this case. At least that's what the data suggests.
There are people who should probably be careful in sauna. So you're not asking this, but I'm going to say it anyway, Kate. Pregnancy, you should not really be going in a sauna, just like you shouldn't be going in a hot tub. People with unmanaged cardiovascular disease should not be going in a sauna without talking to their clinician. People who have difficulty with electrolyte shifts, there are people like with POTS or other issues where they have difficulty with electrolyte shifts, get dizzy. Those people need to be very careful because you're pushing a lot of your blood from your central circulation into your tissues as your body tries to cool down, and that can cause dizziness and lightheadedness. So, be careful the first few times you get in it. Don't do like Bryan, don't start off at 200° 7 days a week for 20 minutes and push through all the pain. Ease into it, see how you feel. But this is certainly something that I think everyone can get. And there's even ways to get a similar benefit without saunas. So, if you're like a warm bath, you know, taking a warm bath, going for exercise, similar sorts of mechanisms happen in the body.
When I was going through this, I was like, I'm destroyed. And I thought, is this normal? So I called Kate and I was like, Kate, do you want to come over and do sauna? Because I wanted to get her experience and see
Like if she was using me as a guinea pig, essentially. Like, is this as bad for you as it is for me? So what am I walking into? I was kind of scared, 'cause, and that's the other thing I asked. I was like, is this safe? Like, 200° Fahrenheit is insanely hot. Like, Bryan and I looked it up, and it takes 20 minutes to cook an egg in that.
Yeah. If you put an egg in there, it's hot enough where the white actually solidifies. And so I was kind of a little bit nervous. But it totally worked out, totally fine for me. It was so comfortable, and I love the heat. It was just like being in the sun. It was so nice, so soothing. Not sweating, sitting there completely comfortable. Bryan's over here, like, sort of shivering, sweating.
Yeah, I think I made the time go much quicker for Bryan because it was like someone else there to distract him in the 20 minute sprint.
Yeah. I mean, Kate, you also had a really significant HRV bounce.
That's true. Yeah. And that's something I've seen throughout my life. Whenever I do a sauna, my HRV will spike the next day. So, I do want to... I've had trouble keeping a steady HRV. I typically see very large fluctuations, usually correlated with my menstrual cycle. So I want to do a protocol and see, can I stabilize those dips that I usually experience in my luteal phase with sauna. I think that'd be really, really interesting.
Yeah, that's cool. That's a cool idea. I mean, it certainly can help with... it should help with HRV because it does have sort of a parasympathetic activation. So it would make sense that your HRV would go up a little bit.
I mean, Mike, the sauna does seem to address something. Like, we've maxed out, I think, nutrition. I think we've maxed out supplementation, also exercise, but, you know, sauna seems to fit a piece of the puzzle that we haven't been able to solve on vascular health. Are there other things that would be competitive with sauna? So if we didn't do sauna and we wanted a similar vascular improvement, what therapies would we look at? Or does sauna hold a pretty unique position in terms of its ability to generate these heat shock proteins, to work on the endothelial function, increase blood by 70%?
Your best bet outside of sauna, like, say for example you are someone listening and you don't have access to a sauna, you don't have a gym where you get to a sauna, your best bet is exercise. So in terms of activating heat shock proteins, increasing core body temperature, increasing BDNF, really almost every single one of those mechanisms that we went through that sauna is activating, exercise also does. So in your case, we've already optimized those things from an exercise standpoint. Now we're hitting them also from a sauna standpoint, so we're hitting them with heat as well. But you get a lot of that benefit from exercise. Exercise is your next best thing. And to be honest, I think if you were to pick one thing and you had to pick it, I would pick exercise over sauna. But in a setting where you know you want the benefits of sauna and you can't sauna, exercise is next best.
The studies on hot baths, on, you know, hot tubs, if you have access to that, or just drawing a hot bath at your home, are actually decent. They suggest that there's a similar sort of mechanism and some degree of benefit that is somewhat similar to a sauna, although it's not as well studied. But theoretically you're getting a very similar sort of situation, where, in this case, it's, you know, convective rather than conductive heat loss, but, you know, increasing the body temperature rather quickly, causing all that heat, probably getting heat shock protein activation. So that's another good benefit. You could also do contrast showers. There's been some interesting research on contrast showers, going hot and cold, hot, cold. And that might have some similar sort of vascular exercise kind of effects. So there's some options out there for people that don't have access to a sauna.
Yeah. I mean, so far, with the early data we have, I'm impressed, because I work out seven days a week. I mean, I work out really hard, and so I'm just impressed that the sauna could further boost gains even though they have, you know, a similar mechanism of action. So yeah, excited to see what ultimately happens after, I guess it would be, let's see, around 40 to 50 sessions total, once we complete this. And I definitely do enjoy it, though. Similar to HBOT, right? Basically about the same amount of dose, right? Like, we were right at 60 sessions with HBOT before we retested it.
I also wonder if we're going to find anything unique in the data, because with HBOT, you know, I hadn't heard anybody talk about the microbiome as it relates to HBOT. And to see the dramatic changes we had with the short-chain fatty acids, with Akkermansia, with butyrate, with the vitamin D changes I had, like a 238% increase in vitamin D with the same level of supplementation. That was kind of a surprise to me. I mean, maybe there's literature out there that I'm unaware of, but I wonder, given that we're measuring so many things on sauna, if we're going to find any unexpected thing, including, for example, in the microbiome, or in p-tau, you know, the marker that was recently approved for Alzheimer's.
Yep. Again, your metrics are good, so it's hard to see those changes, but we should check p-tau at the end. We should do another microbiome test, but honestly, your microbiome is now so good from HBOT that it's going to be hard to identify much change. So yeah, we're running up against the same issue, which is a good problem to have, I think.
Yeah, the p-tau comment, this is p-tau217. This was recently approved by the FDA as the first marker for Alzheimer's, and HBOT lowered that marker in me by 28%. And so we need to, I think, do a bit of follow-up and see what the variance of that marker measurement is. But still, it's such a massive drop. And that's again something I had never thought about, HBOT relating to cognitive decline, and specifically to lessen its risks in a healthy person. I've heard of people doing it when they're actively engaged in that. But again, I guess these are all to me really delicious findings on unexpected things, where you hear of a certain therapy that's supposed to be for a certain thing, but then there's this long tail of benefits which are really actually important, but they just haven't risen to the headline news of what the therapy is targeted for.
We could also see changes in brain function with all the increased BDNF from the sauna. So doing another Kernel test post sauna, post 50, 60 sessions, is probably worth it too.
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I've got the Kernel device here right next to me. I'm going to start doing daily measurements.
This tells you your brain age. Is that right, Bryan?
Kernel. Yes, that's right. Yeah, this is using basically a blood oxygenation device for the brain. And so it uses that as a proxy for neurons firing. And yeah, so right now it gives you a brain age number, but then we're now developing this larger panel of biomarkers for the brain on processing speed, memory, language. So we'll have this big dashboard of markers of how healthy your brain is, which is wild, because measurement for the brain is currently so inaccessible, and this is a helmet that you can put on your head.
So exciting. I can't wait to see that data. Mike, do you have an opinion, and maybe you don't have an answer for this, on whether or not Bryan should be nude in the sauna, aka not with potential polyester clothing, that kind of stuff, as it's heating up?
Yeah, I would avoid plastics for sure. I think that wool is probably fine. Wool or cotton would be okay, but I mean, it's in your backyard. Just go solo. No harm. No harm.
I mean, so we actually were testing quite a few things for glyphosate, and for example, one of the lab results came back showing that a diaper we tested had... oh, I forget the data. Anyways, it came back with a very large number that was kind of alarming, which makes sense, like the material going into a diaper would have glyphosate as an input in the agricultural process. And so the fact that it would slip by any kind of detection, because people wouldn't think of it as food for consumption. It's on the body. But still, and I don't think there's good evidence on what the skin absorbs of glyphosate. So I think there's a few jumps you have to assess and see: is it a risk? If so, what kind?
So, is glyphosate a pesticide?
Yeah, it's a broad-spectrum herbicide. And so, okay. Yeah, it could be used in the process of growing soybeans, corn, canola, cotton. And so that's why, when Kate and I were in the sauna, I had shorts on. I basically had shorts on and underwear. Both are cotton, but I needed them to ice the balls. And Kate was like, "Maybe you should be nude, because we're learning from our tests that we're detecting glyphosate in foods and in diapers, and so there's no reason to believe that your cotton clothing is free from glyphosate, and the increased heat, plus, you know, being up against your body, you may unexpectedly be dosing yourself with glyphosate." So it was a good point.
A lot of these chemicals are fat soluble. So, you know, the water from your sweat plus the oils from your skin are sometimes enough to help that translocation of the chemical into your body. So whenever we implement heat into the situation, we always worry more about this chemical reactivity and its ability to transfer through the skin. So yeah, I agree with you, Kate. I think the less the better, for sure.
Yeah. And I remember we were pretty specific about finding a sauna that was safe to use, right? Like, we were looking at air quality within saunas. A lot of saunas use, you know, crappy woods or bad glues, and then that gets heated up and you're breathing in those fumes. Did we test this one for air quality, the one that you're using, Bryan?
We did. Yeah. I'd like to test it again. We tested it before it arrived. I would like to complete a second test.
Yeah, that's a good idea. I've tested the one in my house. It's been okay as well, which I think is encouraging for, like, over time. I worry mostly about plastics from manufacturing, like, burning up in the heater or something. But one thing I do want to point out, that kind of freaks me out, that I haven't seen much literature on, is the idea of putting water on these rocks. So you'll go to a lot of saunas where people actually pour water onto the rocks, and it's, you know, obviously boiling, and then the steam is going up into the air. So, are we being mindful of what kind of water we're putting on those rocks? Is it straight tap water? Is it distilled water? Is it coming from a reverse osmosis filter? What's in that water? We already know there's PFAS in every water system in the world. So, you know, it's kind of freaky. So for me, no water on the rocks, straight dry.
Yeah, Mike, that's a great point. Yeah, that's something that would pass most people's filter as not something to think about, but you are correct, and based upon all the water we've tested, we know there are baseline contaminants in tap water in most city systems. They do, of course, have their own levels, but these reverse osmosis systems are much better. We actually need to publish that. We have a diff to show what the system did. But yeah, it's also worth noting that in talking to several companies that provide saunas, we asked them to do an air quality test, and they refused. So maybe it's just they didn't want to put forward the effort, but just something to be mindful of as you think about a sauna system: what are the contaminants of the sauna, in the air, the water. So yeah, good point.
And is there any kind of protocol, Mike, for what to do with your sweat afterwards? Like, should you be showering immediately afterwards? Does it matter? Can that get reabsorbed back into your skin?
I mean, I would shower immediately afterwards, I guess for multiple reasons. One, you don't want to stink. So, you've got to start your day. But yeah, there are metals, there are plastic chemicals, there's, you know, all PFAS. All these things have been shown to be in your sweat, to the order of, like, 10 to 20 times the concentration that it's in your urine. So there's junk on you after you sauna. You should go shower and get that stuff off so that it doesn't get reabsorbed.
In the sauna, what do you think about this? So I have a towel there where I wipe the sweat off me on some kind of regular basis, with the idea that if you don't, it reabsorbs. Is that possible?
It's a good question. I don't think you would be. I think you're producing so much sweat at that point that it's mostly just going one direction. It's one directional. So, it's an interesting theory. I'm not sure that it's as important as just getting in the shower after the sauna, but I can't refute it in any way.
And by the way, if any of you out there know of a company that can test my sweat for toxins, we have been trying to find somebody that can do that, because, like all things, we'd like to see if we can not just look at it from a before and after blood toxin level, but also just on a daily basis, what, if any, toxins are excreted in a daily session.
Maybe you could just sweat into a tube and we can send it into the company as urine and they won't notice.
Yeah, agreed. Honestly, that's a really good idea. I mean, it's 18 ounces, right? So in a given session, it is basically the same volume as a urine sample.
I mean, having sat next to you, I could definitely just put a tube next to your arm and it would just drip.
Yeah, it was a lot of sweat. Yeah. You can also sell it on eBay, you know.
What a good insight, because I wonder what the minimum volume sample size requirement is for a urine toxin test. I don't know what volume those little containers they give you are, but it's probably something like four or five ounces.
Yeah. If they're checking for your creatinine in the sample, though, you'd probably fail it, unless you mixed it with some urine or did some calculations or something. Yeah. They would immediately email us and be like, friends, something's wrong. Yeah. Either you have to go to the ER immediately or you've given us a sample that is not urine.
Yeah. We should reach out to them and see. Maybe they'd be down to do this experiment. Yeah. So let's try it. We'll see what the minimum sample volume is, and then we'll see if we can collect that amount. I mean, it's going to be hard, because the 18 ounces is spread throughout my entire body, and so I have to find a way to collect that. You're also getting a lot of skin cells too. So, yeah. Anyway, okay.
And are we doing a microplastics test? I know we're doing PFAS specifically, but are we doing microplastics in the blood?
Yeah. We have been doing it routinely. We have some good microplastic data recently on several things.
Next episode, live from the sauna. That one was hot. Steamy.
Mike, do you have access to a sauna? Do you have one at your home?
Yeah, I've got one in the garage. What temperature do you do it at?
Depends on how soon I remember to turn it on. But anywhere from like 170 to... 212 is the highest I've seen it. At that point, your eyes feel like they're melting. Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe
there's like diminishing returns at that point. Yeah, usually around like I'm usually around 180, 190. Yeah. And how often do you do it? I would say on average I get in there like two to three times a week. I would like to do it more. I would like to do it four plus. Like the data really shows like four is where you're getting like really good impact. Yeah. So that's where I'd like to be.
Yeah. Kate, do you have sauna as part of your daily life protocol? I don't have sauna as part of my daily life protocol. I have space on my roof. I could get a sauna. Maybe I'll wait to see your results. Yeah, roof sauna. Sounds pretty good. Are you not persuaded by the evidence we presented today and the initial results? I'm all in just for the experience of it, like the feeling of being in the sauna, but I would love to also see all your results just because you love the heat. Love the heat. Yes. The heat is my friend.
I mean, you grew up in Australia and you basically was in a sauna. Yeah. Right. The atmosphere. Yeah. And you were in the sun constantly, right? That was your Yeah. Lots of beauty UV damage. I went back home recently and it was like 13 UV, which is just wild. I think the top of the range is 15. And that was just an everyday kind of situation growing up.
So, and did the people you saw, did your friends, did they have a similar sun kind of a routine style? They just spend time in the sun without thinking twice about it. Yeah. I mean, you met my sister. She came over to Bryan's house last week and we all hung out and we did our usual routine, which is we show people what their skin age is using the multispectral imaging, and she came back with pretty significant UV damage, which correlates with the experience that we had both growing up where we'd go lay in the sun at midday and try and get a tan. So yeah, definitely wasn't a good situation. But unlike me, I've kind of gone down this path of now avoiding the sun. She still seeks the sun every day. And so it's really interesting to see the difference in audit.
Yeah. Mike, have you done this, the skin age test? I have. Yeah. I didn't do great. I didn't do great. Did you spend a lot of time? So it wasn't terrible. I like I hit my age perfectly except for the left side from driving was two years higher than the right side. So from driving a car, like sun exposure, car. And then but I hit my age perfectly, which is very different than all my other aging tests are generally like seven, eight years lower. So, but for skin, I'm like right at my age, which is unfortunate.
You know, I can't get my daughter to embrace the the no-sun life, the vampire life. Well, it's not even the vampire life. I would say just it's something much softer. It's just to acknowledge that there's a tradeoff in the sun that yes, it feels great and yes, there's a cultural pressure in America to be, you know, to be tan, like in her social world. Also, it comes at a cost later in life. And of course, when you're in your teens, the last thing that you think is ever going to happen is you're not going to be in your teens, right? You think that your entire life you're going to be a teenager, and then of course when your 20s and 30s come it's like, oh, actually something happens after teenage life.
And so I just I have she messaged me the day, she's like, "Dad, you're going to be really proud of me. I went out in the sun for three hours. I had sunscreen on." And I was like, "Genevieve, you're right. Like I'm really proud of you. Great job." And then she said, "But the other day I also spent two hours in the sun. I didn't have sunscreen on and I also felt fine about that." So I was like, she's like, "Dad, I don't see the difference. Like I don't know if what you're saying is accurate." So it's a battle I'm waging. I'm not quite sure how I'm doing. I think I'm losing.
How old is she? Well, she's 15. Okay. So you're just planting seeds that will later blossom. Hopefully in her early 20s when her frontal lobe develops.
Well, she was like, "Dad, I'm just going to..." Well, I won't say what she said, but like she had in her mind that there was like something that adults do to address it. I'm like, that actually doesn't address the problem. Like, it's going to cause your skin to just... What? You have to tell us, cuz now it's like this mystery, like, well, what is it? I mean, I'm just imagining her like somehow finding out that I talked about her on a podcast and she's like, "Dad, you can't say that stuff." And so I was like trying to play it out.
So without violating her trust, she was imagining something that adults do for their skin. She's like, "I'll just do that," as if it's a cure. I was like, "Actually, it doesn't solve that problem. When your skin sags and wrinkles and discolors, it's complicated. You have to do a whole bunch of stuff and even those things don't really work." And she's like, "Then I'll get brand new skin." And I was like, "I don't know. I don't know if you can do that yet." I mean, like maybe in 10 years, but like... So that was a hard one. It was kind of like, it's a good point. Like maybe you're right. Maybe you're right. Possible.
Yeah. It's also interesting, last note, is that it's so hard to walk this fine line of worrying about aging versus wanting to be your optimal healthy self. Yeah. I think that's the thing, is like we don't want to scare her into worrying about sagging skin, because that's ultimately not the problem really. It's really about just being able to feel and act your healthiest and best self.
Yeah. I mean, the thing is though, like, so I agree with you. And what creates that tension is when society has a norm that to behave a certain way is accepted and desirable, then if you don't behave that way, then you're weird and you're missing out. But if the default were actually positive, then we wouldn't have this tension. And so there is definitely an appropriate place for sun in life, and just not too much, not too little, but a nice balance. I feel like Asia has done a much better job finding that balance, where America is like leather skin, you know, like more towards that side of the spectrum. And so I think we're just off on the default of where the appropriate balance is for these various things. And that creates the tension that most people then say, do I live life or do I do this other thing, and they create this binary dichotomy in their mind, which isn't the proper representation of the consideration set.
For those of you listening, I want to remind you I'm doing this not because I think this stuff is going to help me live forever. I'm doing this stuff because I think this is the move as a species, that if we care about the human race, our individual selves and the human race existing, I think we need to turn away from death in all of its forms and we can find new ways of meaning. So it really is like, yes, there's like a practical, social, societal, how I live my day life on a daily basis. Also, it's in this larger context, and so I just didn't want people to walk away feeling burdened with this tension of like what do I do daily and then how do I think about this larger perspective. This is the Don't Die podcast. So cool. All right. Thank you guys. Okay. See you next week.
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