"We Spend 108% of What We Make": A Couple Who Has Never Talked About Money Faces Its Numbers
I Will Teach You To Be Rich
Grace (30) and Chris (29) have been together seven years and married six months. They own their home outright, have about $119,500 invested, and agree they want two children within the next year. On paper this is a strong start. But their fixed costs come to more than 100% of their income, their savings would last about a month, and by their own account they have never had a substantive conversation about money. In this episode of I Will Teach You to Be Rich, Ramit Sethi tries to find out why. He asks what roles each of them has fallen into, where those roles came from, and whether they can change them before children raise the stakes. He says early on that he would rather couples argue about money than avoid it entirely. Grace and Chris, as he frames it, "don't argue. They don't disagree. They simply do not talk about money at all."
"Crying for help on a sinking ship"
Ramit opens with a line from Grace's application: they are unable to make big decisions like starting a family because Chris "refuses to engage or participate in any of the money management," while she knows they are struggling. Grace says she wrote it on a hard day. They had just had a good conversation about wanting a family and were fully aligned on it. But whenever she tried to talk about how to pay for it, Chris's reply was some version of "I know what the situation is, I just need to make more money." She described feeling like she was "crying for help on a sinking ship" with no one coming. Their day-to-day and monthly finances, she said, feel "chaotic and very unstable."
Chris accepted responsibility. They don't set plans or checklists, he said, and he doesn't know what to do or how to talk about it. Meanwhile they keep going out, Amazon packages keep arriving, and dinners with friends and family add up until they look back and realize they are "kind of sinking." Grace earns more than he does. He described his role as handing over money when she asks for it for taxes and bills, which makes him feel like "the side person."
Asked who created that arrangement, Grace said she did, because when she tried to sit down with Chris he wouldn't engage, so she decided someone had to manage it. Is it working? Grace said she is good with numbers and knows where money needs to go, but she is not good at saying no, and they prioritize social life and experiences beyond what they can afford. Chris agreed that Grace is excellent at writing plans and keeps spreadsheets, "this goes here, this goes here," but that "life happens." Ramit summed it up: planning is good, execution is poor. Both said they are not skilled with money, and neither could recall ever having a real conversation about it.
Avoidance, embarrassment, and the "man of the house"
When Ramit asked what was behind his deflecting, Chris said it was on him. He curls "into a little shell" and avoids the subject. He admitted he had probably never acknowledged this before. He tied it to embarrassment: Grace has always earned more, and as "the male in the relationship" that feels embarrassing, because he believes the man is supposed to take care of the house and, mainly, the bills. Asked what the woman does in that picture, he said he wants Grace to do whatever she likes: stay home, work, anything.
Ramit used a sports metaphor. Chris played baseball, basketball, and football growing up. On a baseball team, if someone asked what position a teammate plays, nobody would answer "whatever she wants." Chris agreed that positions depend on skills. Grace said she liked the metaphor. The income gap doesn't matter to her, she said, because "more and less put together" is one whole. Both agreed that the current arrangement probably isn't working.
In voiceover, Ramit calls this "a dynamic as old as time" on his show: a husband who disengages because his wife is "better at math," and a wife furiously tracking things in spreadsheets without really knowing what they add up to. Both say it isn't working, yet the roles never change.
Chris described a second pattern. He gets comfortable, dislikes change, and becomes complacent in his routine, and he said this is what frustrates Grace most. If he could change one thing about himself, he said, it would be this, because job interviews, conversations with strangers, and even this session are uncomfortable but move you forward. He had never told Grace this. Grace said she had long known it about him and that she believes he is very capable but "gets in his own way." She added that she is a helper who fills in his gaps, likes to step in when someone she loves is struggling, and is working on that in individual and couples therapy. By profession she is a therapist, and she said she is comfortable letting clients struggle in her work but not people she loves. Chris is a warehouse manager at an industrial sales company.
The baseball game
Asked for a recent clash, Grace immediately named a weekend when Chris's family was in town. Before the weekend they had agreed on how much of Chris's paycheck would go to taxes and monthly bills, which left $100 for the entire weekend. At the ballpark, where Grace said a beer costs about $25, she watched Chris buy beer after beer, including rounds for others. When they recreated the moment, Grace remembered asking, "that's your fourth beer, where's the money coming from? How are we going to pay for dinner tomorrow with your family?" Chris answered, "My family's in town and we're just having fun, so we'll figure it out later." Grace moved to sit with her in-laws because she didn't expect a productive conversation.
They never discussed how to pay for the next day's dinner. Grace quietly took money from a short-term money market account where she collects monthly savings for the annual property tax bill. They have no mortgage, but the taxes come due once a year. She admitted this is a pattern. She takes, for example, $150, and hopes the account's growth will make up the difference. Does it? "I don't know. Haven't checked."
Ramit pointed out that when Chris said "we'll figure it out," he gestured toward Grace. Chris agreed that "we" meant Grace. Ramit asked why Grace doesn't just tell Chris that he bought the beers, so he has to find the money. She said she gets anxious that it won't get fixed and will become her problem later. She also doesn't trust him to fix it, because he has never sat down with her to look at the numbers. How could he fix a problem he doesn't understand? Ramit replied dryly that maybe if she keeps handling everything herself, one day he'll "magically get it." Both said no. Grace said she knows the pattern but can't seem to change it.
How the money actually moves
Grace is paid monthly, and her entire paycheck goes to monthly expenses. Chris is paid weekly and his income varies. He transfers his pay to Grace, who distributes it, and gas and groceries come out of it. If his paycheck falls short, Grace protects the annual and monthly bills and cuts the grocery budget, which has meant eating Top Ramen from the pantry (she has "mastered it in a microwave"). They have a joint account, but it has been "on a hiatus" with nothing going into it for a while.
Ramit noted that Chris had been silent through this whole explanation. Chris said it was because Grace is more knowledgeable and he doesn't really know what he's doing. Asked what they noticed about their roles, both described them as individual, passive, and short on real interaction, and they attributed that to avoiding argument and disagreement. Grace said she realized she is more passive than she thought. She tries to plan and execute, but the follow-through is "kind of just in the clouds, hoping it works out." Chris said, "I have no idea what I'm doing."
Filling out the Conscious Spending Plan alone
Their homework before the session was to complete Ramit's Conscious Spending Plan (CSP) together. Grace filled it out while Chris "took a backseat," and she didn't ask for his input. Ramit described how each of them read the assignment: Grace thought we need these numbers filled in, I know them, so I'll do it, and Chris thought there's a money thing and she's got it. The real assignment, they agreed, was to sit down together, ask each other questions, and communicate. Ramit said he didn't care if a number was 50% off, since math can be fixed, but they hadn't talked at all. In his view the CSP is simple math, but it is revealing because of how a couple goes about completing it.
The headline numbers and a surprise about the neighbors
Grace read the summary: assets $390,000 (mostly the home), investments $119,500, savings $7,350, debt $22,483, net worth $494,367. She was disappointed by the debt. Chris liked the investment figure and blamed the low savings on not earning enough.
Their combined gross monthly income is $9,377, which Ramit put at about $112,000 a year. Grace felt they were "on the low side" for their area. Asked to guess the median household income in their neighborhood, she said $175,000–180,000 and Chris said about $150,000. Ramit told them it is about $113,000, roughly what they earn. Chris said he was stunned and concluded, "Sounds like we're not good with our money choices." Grace said it feels impossible to live where they live on their income, yet others clearly manage it, so there must be patterns and choices of theirs that aren't helping.
108% in fixed costs
Then came the line Ramit had flagged: fixed costs at 108% of take-home pay. Grace read it as spending more each month than they make on fixed costs alone. Ramit said that when you spend more than you make every month, "it is simply a matter of time until you are broke," and beyond that, until you lose everything. Chris said he knew it was bad and knew "enough" what it meant, but admitted he never told Grace they needed a red alert. Grace said she understood the number but didn't know how to act on it, and that she tried to push "but maybe not hard enough" because she avoids conflict. Ramit told them they were "skating on very thin ice," with one month of savings, still tiptoeing around each other, while planning a family.
In voiceover, Ramit explains why he pushes hard at this point. Guests apply, go through months of screening, and fly out, and then, faced with reality, often start minimizing: it's not that bad, we just need a budget. His invisible script, he says, is that "sometimes uncomfortable conversations are amazing," and he warns he will keep pushing through the entire episode.
He then went through the fixed costs line by line:
- Housing. Grace and her grandmother bought the house together in cash. The only housing cost is property tax, which Ramit calculated at 11.3% of gross income and called "super low."
- Utilities. $412.
- Insurance. $922, which Ramit called high. Chris had an insurance subsidy. When they married, Grace said, they didn't realize they would have to pay back the subsidy, and the premium skyrocketed. They are locked in until the end of the year. Chris's plan is to find a new job that offers insurance.
- Car. $502 a month for Grace's Ford Bronco Sport, bought within the past six months on what she thinks is a 72-month loan. She put the price at "30, 32,000" but wasn't sure. Asked why she chose that loan, she said "lack of knowledge" and that it sounded good at the time. The car loan wasn't included in their debt total, so Ramit added roughly $30,000, bringing total debt to about $52,000.
- Gas and groceries. A single $600 bucket. Grace has never separated the two. She guessed the real figure is about $800. Ramit, who says he always estimates conservatively, put it at $900 or more.
- Debt payments. $1,218 a month, all credit card debt from the wedding and house repairs: a burst pipe, an HVAC problem, and a bathroom flood that required a remodel. They have stopped using credit cards and now use debit. Grace has moved the balances to 0% promotional cards and plans to pay them off before the promotions end. She said this will work if they stick to the plan.
- Pets. $735 a month. One of their dachshunds has chronic pancreatitis and needs a special diet, a probiotic, and medication.
- Subscriptions. $167, including Spotify, streaming, fitness, iCloud, a dog tracker, a Ring camera, Amazon Prime, and a $20-a-month Cooper's Hawk winery membership.
- "Grace wellness." $662, covering a GLP-1 medication and hair extensions.
- Cleaning service and therapy. $280.
- Miscellaneous. The CSP adds an automatic 15%. Ramit thinks this is accurate and possibly too low, given everything they said they aren't tracking.
Ramit summarized: a couple with no kids, very low housing costs, and $112,000 in gross income has less than one month of savings. Chris said it sounded like they both lack knowledge, despite his repeated claims that Grace knows the numbers. Ramit agreed with his description of "blind leading the blind." He explained that avoiders use conscious and unconscious techniques to stay disengaged, and "my partner's just good at this" is one of them. He also told Grace she needs to acknowledge that she doesn't fully know what she's doing. Moving balances between 0% cards and taking a 72-month car loan is activity, he said, not results. Grace said she has tried, and gets "I just need a different job" in return. Ramit questioned the phrase "I've tried" itself: when you're going broke, you don't "try," you make it happen.
Chris said he needs to stop "shoving it all on her" and take responsibility, perhaps by offering to handle things or do them together. Ramit compared it to children learning to read. Nobody says mommy is better at reading so she should do it. Everyone is bad at money at first. Unlike cooking, though, where you can fall back on ramen, getting money wrong can mean being unable to afford children or, as Ramit put it, becoming homeless even though you own your house.
Where the $119,500 came from
Their current monthly investing is essentially zero beyond $136 into Grace's 401(k). They maxed out a Roth IRA for Chris this year with $7,500, because his job offers no retirement plan. The money came from Grace's inheritance of roughly $80,000 after her grandmother died. The rest of the $119,500 is Grace's existing retirement savings plus what they put into Chris's account. The house is held in joint tenancy with her grandmother and passed to Grace. Ramit's point was that these are real assets, but they came from an inheritance, not from the couple's own investing, which at their income is effectively nonexistent. Monthly savings are also zero. Guilt-free spending is listed at 13%, which Ramit said can't be true given the ball games and dinners.
Eating out 15 times a week, and everything else
They named other spending: dinners out, frequent events with Chris's very social family, and wine walks (about $50 each, where you wear a glass on a lanyard and taste wine from shop to shop). Ramit said he doesn't blame people their age for having fun. Grace added that she has been spending a lot on clothes, mostly from Amazon, because she recently lost a lot of weight. She said she doesn't track how much. Chris said multiple Amazon boxes arrive weekly, and three packages were on the doorstep when they left for the trip.
Asked how often they eat out, including coffee and every meal, Grace guessed twice a week and Chris guessed three times. Ramit ran what he calls his "law of eating out" audit, going meal by meal through the week, and they arrived at 15. Counting lunches Grace buys, Ramit later put it at about 20. Grace said she wasn't surprised because she knew she was a poor estimator. In voiceover, Ramit says he doesn't mind people eating out if they can afford it and love it, but wants people to stop lying to themselves about how often they do. He concluded that they are spending thousands a month on things that aren't really guilt-free, just discretionary. Both said they were very open to big changes.
Chris's childhood: fortunate and silent about money
Chris grew up with two parents who both had good jobs, in a house of about 3,000 square feet, with a sister and brother. He played travel sports and always had the right gear. There was little talk about money. The message he took from it was that he didn't have to worry, so as an adult he is "kind of chill" about it, which he now thinks is a bad trait.
Ramit pointed out that Chris had said "I grew up very fortunate" and "my parents never talked about money" in the same breath, and that 25 years later he still doesn't talk about money. When Chris said that framed that way, it sounds like there's no problem, Ramit asked who does have the problem. Chris: his wife, and therefore both of them, and therefore him too. Ramit suggested a different story: his parents did their best and gave him a great childhood, but never talking about money cost him, and now his wife feels she's on a sinking ship.
In voiceover, Ramit criticizes the idea that talking about money only happens when you're worried about it. For him money can also mean buying a phone, taking a trip, or getting Doritos. He argues that both Grace and Chris have been subsidized in different ways, through inheritance, a paid-for house, and someone else managing the money, and that being subsidized makes it hard to live in reality and to imagine doing things entirely on your own.
Grace's childhood: scarcity, then security, then protection
Grace grew up in the Midwest with a single mother who worked three jobs. There were times they paid the babysitter with food from the fridge, and Grace received free school lunch. Her mother didn't talk about money. Grace believes she was trying to keep adult problems away from a child, though Grace sensed from her mother's absences that life was hard. When Grace was 10, her mother remarried. Her stepfather had a good job and moved them to a nice home, and Grace called it "a total 180": she could do cheerleading and gymnastics and buy clothes instead of wearing hand-me-downs. She said she felt secure. She doesn't know how her mother and stepfather handle money today because they don't discuss it.
Her grandparents, including her grandfather, whom she described as a fantastic architect, left trusts for each grandchild's education. That covered her undergraduate and graduate degrees, roughly $230,000 in total, which she described as a gift beyond words. She wishes she had asked them how they managed their money before they died. She wants to do the same for future generations but doesn't know how, and she and Chris aren't having those conversations.
The message Grace carried into adulthood was "it'll all work itself out," which Ramit noted is true when mom and dad are the ones making it work. Asked who plays the protector role in her marriage, Grace said she does. She is shielding Chris from the struggle the way her mother shielded her, because she doesn't like seeing people she loves struggle or be uncomfortable. Ramit asked, sarcastically, whether she should do the same with their kids so that they can do it to their partners, for five generations. Chris cut in with a firm "No. No thanks." He said they have to break the cycle of not talking about money and not tolerating discomfort. Grace said this is their other recurring dispute: Chris is ready to change once a child arrives, but she wants to know why they can't change beforehand. Asked what she needs before having kids, she said she doesn't know yet and that figuring it out is part of why they came.
Defining a Rich Life
Neither of them had ever discussed what a "Rich Life" means to them. Chris said he doesn't need to be a millionaire. He wants to be stable enough to have a family, do things with family and friends on weekends, and say yes when his kids want to play a sport, giving them the childhood he had. Ramit called this surface-level, "literally just a recitation of how you grew up," and said "I want a comfortable life" is boring. Chris answered that he's a simple man. Ramit asked why he came on the show. Chris said Grace knew Ramit's work and her therapist suggested it. Ramit suggested that coming because his wife wanted to might be "the crux" of the problem: the avoidance extends even to his own Rich Life, and without knowing what each of them wants, progress together will be hard.
Grace thinks Chris wants more than he says. They talk about adding onto the house, for example. Ramit told Grace that because she dislikes seeing people uncomfortable, she can't set expectations and hold her partner accountable, so she fills the void. He proposed she rewrite that story: starting today she is "extremely good" at letting people she loves be uncomfortable, because the discomfort makes them stronger.
Grace's Rich Life was specific. She wants to try unique coffee shops without worrying about the price of a latte. At home she wants a fence so the dogs can run, a play area, an all-seasons room, and an expanded primary bedroom, since they plan to stay in the house. For the two of them, she wants date nights that continue after they have kids, intentional time for connection, the ability to afford childcare or work it out with their involved families, and possibly more travel. For herself, she wants to keep the self-care items on the CSP, such as certain medications and her hair care, which she said matter for her well-being and mental health. She also added a lawn service. Ramit joked that Chris clearly liked that one. Chris mows weekly with a push mower and won't make his future kids mow until 17 or 18, which Ramit said is far too late.
"If nothing changes"
In voiceover, Ramit says the difficulty is that this couple has never faced real consequences. They overspend but still have Spotify and premium dog food. He decided to walk them through what is likely to happen, though he wasn't sure it would land. Chris laid it out when pressed: they keep looking away, go broke, probably have to sell the house, sell everything until nothing is left. It would affect the relationship "terribly," he said, though he isn't going anywhere.
Both agreed they grew up with things but without knowledge. Ramit said that as adults, the information is on YouTube and in library books. Grace hadn't started Ramit's Money for Couples, because she wanted to read it with Chris and feared that if she started alone she'd end up doing it alone. She hadn't told him that beyond saying she'd like to read it. Asked what their future kids would learn, Grace said: how to avoid talking about money and hope it works out. Ramit described the lesson a child would absorb: moms freak out and handle money, dads are carefree and buy what they want. Both called that accurate. Asked whether they wanted a daughter or son to grow up with that picture, both said absolutely not.
Trying to cut: 113% to 104% to 89%
With the adjusted figures, fixed costs now stood at about 113%. Ramit told Chris to lead. He said chipping away at subscriptions, the usual approach for people above his recommended 60% for fixed costs, won't work here, and asked them to start from a blank page. Chris proposed dropping the $20 wine club. Ramit showed that it changed essentially nothing and told him to "think bigger and move faster." Chris suggested the GLP-1 and hair line. Ramit told him to ask Grace, and she said no, explaining that she has a condition involving hair loss and that addressing it matters to her mental well-being. Ramit said he hadn't known and agreed to keep it. Grace then asked to step out, and Chris joined her. In voiceover, Ramit says tears and breaks are fine, and discomfort may be a sign that things are sinking in, not a reason to stop.
When they returned, Chris suggested cutting cleaning and therapy. Grace said no. Asked what she would cut, Grace said she'd sooner take out food money. Ramit repeated back to her that she would cut food before a cleaning service, fitness, or Spotify. She acknowledged she was having a hard time compromising.
Ramit then gave Chris two minutes of "carte blanche" with Grace's support. Chris halved Spotify and streaming, cut cleaning and therapy, trimmed groceries and gas by $100, and chose cheaper pet food, then said he couldn't do anything more. Ramit reminded him of his earlier picture of the man who provides and asked whether such a man wouldn't just chop the numbers. Chris said, "Yeah, but I can't do that." Fixed costs went from 113% to 104%. Ramit said he suspected they wanted him to perform a magic trick without being willing to change. Chris said he could see how it looked that way. Next they zeroed out the GLP-1 and hair line, kept only one streaming service, and Grace mentioned a $360-a-month dog walker who comes three days a week, which went too. That brought them to 89%, better but still far from 60%.
Coachability and the "machete"
In voiceover, Ramit reflects on people who hunt for the perfect book, coach, or program but never ask whether they are coachable. He says everyone, including himself, has areas where they aren't coachable, and that becoming coachable takes practice. He describes three steps: fully acknowledge that there is a problem without minimizing it; accept that I need to change, not the world or even "us"; and take one specific action, such as asking your partner to lead money conversations because your way isn't working.
He then showed what an aggressive approach would sound like. Faced with 89% and no mortgage, he said, he would ask for "a machete." He would cap miscellaneous at $100 a month and review it weekly, which brings them to 79%. He would tell Chris the insurance can be afforded for a while but not beyond six months, and ask him for a plan and a report on the job search. They said they never talk to each other like this; they say "nothing." Asked how the ballgame would have gone under this approach, Chris said they probably wouldn't have gone. Ramit had them practice a script for turning down family: "Right now we're prioritizing paying off our debt," which he said is hard to argue with.
Asked where the costs of a child would fit, the answer was nowhere. Ramit said they couldn't even afford diapers, let alone childcare. Grace called the realization terrifying and sad. Ramit said he was deliberately not reassuring her, letting her "sit in it," because change comes from realizing how close you are to the edge.
The 15-month picture
The credit card promotions end in stages, some in 12 months and some in 15, around December and March–April 2027. Zeroing out debt payments brought fixed costs to 61%. Ramit spelled out what that would require: stopping GLP-1s and hair extensions now, no eating out for 15 months, halving pet food. All three agreed this is unrealistic. Grace offered some relief. The debt payments have been on track, and she will soon stop the GLP-1 anyway, saving about $450 a month. She gets 3–5% annual raises. Then she revealed a second job she hadn't put on the CSP, which brings in $8,000–10,000 a year. She called it "not a lot," and Ramit said that's a lot of money. She uses it to cover untracked miscellaneous costs and keeps it in a separate account. Ramit told her directly that she is not managing money effectively and not demanding enough of her partner.
Grace said being more direct would sound like: we're not going to the game, we'll meet the family at the house afterward; or, the wine walk is for your dad's birthday but we can't afford it right now. Chris admitted he would probably not take that well at first. Ramit appreciated the honesty and said nobody does at first. His advice was that if they keep operating individually, any change becomes an invisible tug-of-war ("just three more months," "the dogs are so cute," "it's my dad's birthday"), ending in resentment and a return to old habits. What they need is a shared vision strong enough that the outside world is no longer the priority, which is why he asks about a Rich Life. He said they can get there in 15 months, maybe sooner.
When he asked how they'd stick to it, there was a long silence. Grace said she felt overwhelmed. The items she's already kept are what keep her okay, and she has tried to cut as much as she can without making life miserable. Chris called the session eye-opening. His diagnosis was high costs they can't afford, and above all that they "dance around the bush" and hope it works out because it seemingly has so far, since they haven't lost the house. Grace said the second job lets her convince herself she has things handled when she doesn't, and that she thought she was more involved than she is. Seeing those patterns was what she had hoped to get from the session.
In voiceover, Ramit explains why he never got to retirement projections: with fixed costs above 100%, discussing investments 30 years out would be pointless and could even serve as an escape from the fact that their house is "burning right now."
What they committed to
Grace listed her plans. She will prioritize paying down debt, look at cheaper dog care and alternative food for the sick dog, eventually drop the GLP-1, and work more hours at the barn during summers, when she's off from her main job and where her hourly rate is higher but hours are usually scarce. She also wants to measure what they actually spend on gas and how often they really eat out, because, she said, "it goes into the cloud." Chris said he would fix the insurance situation, mainly through a new job. He mentioned having considered becoming a Starbucks barista because of the benefits, and Ramit encouraged it. He also said they would look at the numbers together at home and set a regular money meeting, suggesting Thursday evenings.
They planned to read Money for Couples a chapter at a time, like a book club, and discuss what each learned. Ramit added suggestions: start each meeting with a compliment, maybe bring a snack, use the book's agenda, and adopt core values such as "we make informed decisions quickly," meaning that if something needs to go, it goes immediately. He also told them to form a united front against outside pressure, which requires each of them to know what they want, and to rehearse what they'll say when family or friends invite them out. He said earning more is the natural next step and should not wait, and that the summer hours are "an absolute no-brainer." Both said they were on board. Chris said they are willing to collaborate instead of him taking a back seat and assuming Grace is handling it all.
Ramit's verdict and the follow-up
In his closing reflection, Ramit said he thinks it will be very hard for Grace and Chris to make these changes. He noted that before this session they had never had a substantive money conversation, and that appearing on the show was "the definition of uncomfortable" for Chris, so they have already taken a step. Will they follow through? "Probably not until their backs are against the wall," he said, since most people don't change unless they have to. He doesn't want them to have children and discover the next month that they can't afford diapers, but there is only so much he can do until they see it themselves.
In their recorded follow-up, Grace said her biggest surprise was how their different childhoods, and their parents' silence about money, shaped how they show up with money as adults. Chris's biggest surprise was how close their income is to the local median. Grace's main takeaway was wanting to change those patterns for future children through more open, proactive conversations. Chris's was that they need deeper conversations about their Rich Life. Their stated changes: read the book together and hold weekly finance meetings on Thursdays at 6.
I feel like I'm crying for help on a sinking ship and no one is coming to help me.
Whoa. What's that number, Grace?
Wait, do I?
108%. What does that tell you?
That we spend more a month than we make.
You have no mortgage.
Correct.
So, where's the money going?
We're going out. Amazon packages are coming to the door and we're going out to eat and then that just kind of stacks up.
We had a conversation. I need this amount and this amount for the taxes and the monthly bills from your paycheck. But then I'm watching them get beer after beer, buying other people drinks.
You two are skating on very thin ice. If I looked at these numbers, I go, "Give me a machete. I will cut this so aggressively."
I would try and sit down and have conversations about it, and he wouldn't engage in it.
I don't know exactly how to talk about it or what's really going on.
You all are on the path to losing what you've got and potentially having to sell the house in the future, but that still has not made you have honest conversations about money. And you're married and talking about starting a family.
Can I take a sec?
How many times have you watched couples argue about money on this show? Might even be the reason that you watch. And I don't mind because I think arguing about money is natural. It is the way that most of us relate to money. And I would rather have you disagree, even argue about money, than not talk about it at all.
Today I'm speaking to Grace and Chris. They are 30 and 29 years old. They've been married for six months. They want to start a family and they can't even bring themselves to have healthy conversations about money. They don't argue. They don't disagree. They simply do not talk about money at all.
I'm going to pull up their Conscious Spending Plan. Assets $390,000. Investments $119K at age 29 and 30. That's very good. Savings $7,350. That's lower than I want to see. Debt is $22K. Total net worth $494,000. Okay, so far so good. But look at the next number. Fixed costs 108%. What's going on here? Let's meet Grace and Chris.
Let me take a look at the application because Grace, you wrote something that caught my attention. You wrote, "We are unable to make big life decisions like starting a family because he refuses to engage or participate in any of the money management while I know that we are struggling and need to make changes." Do you remember writing that?
Mhm. Yeah.
What was going on at the moment that you wrote that?
That was a tough day for me. I think we had had a really great conversation about where we wanted our life to go next and that we are 100% on the same page about starting a family. But whenever I try and have conversations with Chris about it, it's usually, "I know what the situation is. I just need to make more money." And I feel like I'm crying for help on a sinking ship and no one is coming to help me. And it feels very chaotic, which causes a lot of stress. And then when you have a partner who isn't really ready or unable to have those conversations, it makes it really hard to kind of offload and partner on things.
You said it feels chaotic. What feels chaotic?
Our day-to-day living expenses, our monthly expense, just the financial aspect of our life feels chaotic and very unstable.
Okay. Chris, what's your take on what Grace just said?
We don't really set checklists. We don't really have plans. And I do take responsibility for that, too, because I don't know exactly what to do or how to talk about it or what's really going on. Then we're going out and doing this and Amazon packages are coming to the door and we're going out to eat and friends, family, and then that just kind of stacks up. And then we look back at it and we're kind of sinking.
Do you want to have the conversations about money?
Yeah, I'm very open to it.
Open to it or do you want to have them?
I want to.
Okay.
I want to. She makes more money than I do in our situations. So I feel like I don't have a whole lot of control in it necessarily. It's like, paycheck to paycheck, she asks me for money and I give it to her and that's kind of it in my role. I just feel like I'm just kind of the side person. She asks for what she needs for our taxes and our monthly stuff and I just kind of give it to her and that's just kind of how it goes.
That's the role, as you put it.
Yeah.
Who created that role?
She did.
Well, I did, but it was because I would try and sit down and have conversations about it and he wouldn't engage in it. So, I'm like, "Okay, well, if someone needs to figure out how to manage it, I'm going to manage it."
Is it working?
It's working in the sense I'm good at numbers and I know what needs to go where. It's not working in the sense that I know what needs to go where, but I also am not a good person to say no to things. And we also prioritize social and experiences beyond what we can.
What does that mean?
For example, we had family in town and they wanted to go to a baseball game and so we're like, "Yeah, let's go." Knowing full well, we had $100 to spend for the whole weekend and that was not going to cut it.
Oh.
And we still went.
How'd you pay for it?
I pulled out of the money that we used to pay our taxes at the end of the year.
Oh.
Yeah.
Okay. So, are you good at it?
No.
Chris, is she good at it?
She is very good at writing the plan. I see her do it all the time. She has her sheets out. This goes here, this goes here, this goes here. And life happens.
Execution is poor.
Yeah.
Planning is good. Execution—
Planning is great.
And then, are you skilled at money, Chris?
No. No.
Okay. When was the last time you talked about money in a substantive way?
I wouldn't say really ever. From my perspective, whenever I try and bring up, "Hey, I want to sit down and go over this plan. I'm stressed about this. I want to talk this through. This is where we're at." It's kind of like, "I know it's bad. I just need to get a new job with more money. It's fine. And that'll fix it." And I'm like—
What's behind that, Chris?
I think it's on me. I think I just kind of curl into a little shell and—
Mhm.
Don't talk about it.
Because?
Because I'm just avoiding it.
Okay.
I honestly, yeah.
Have you ever acknowledged that before today?
Probably not.
No.
I guess I just don't feel stable enough. Maybe it comes more of an embarrassment that she—
Talk to her.
Yeah. That you make more money than me and I'm lower than you on that pole. And yeah, it's kind of embarrassing as being the male in the relationship.
And that's something, sorry.
That's powerful. I appreciate that. Can I ask a couple questions about that?
Yeah.
Okay. Did you ever make more than Grace?
No.
And you mentioned it's kind of embarrassing as a man.
Yeah.
What's that?
You're supposed to be the man of the house, taking care of everything.
What does that mean? Taking care of what?
Bills and the house. The main thing is just the bills.
Okay. So that's what a man does. And then what does a woman do in this vision?
Well, she can. My goal would be for her to do whatever she would like to do.
Oh.
Stay home, have a job, do whatever. Just whatever she would like to do.
You ever play a sport? Soccer, football.
Yeah, I played baseball, basketball, football growing up.
Okay, that's a lot of sports. Now I'm like, I don't know anything about baseball.
Baseball was his main one.
Which one?
Baseball.
Baseball.
Okay, hold on.
Or football.
I know even less about football. Let me just put myself in the mindset. Okay, you all are on a baseball team and you play first base. She's on your team and I go, "Hey, what position does she play?" And your answer is, "I just want her to do whatever she wants." Have you ever heard that said on a team?
No. Because normally people have certain skill sets for different positions.
Agreed. So she's playing shortstop or she's outfield or whatever, right? Grace, what do you think about this team metaphor?
I like the team metaphor and that's what I want. And that was what I was going to kind of chime in. I'm not so much of, "I make more, you make less." It just doesn't really matter to me. I look at it as we're a team. So more and less, put them together, it's one whole thing.
Is this working?
Probably not.
This is a dynamic as old as time. We've seen it many times on this very podcast. We have a husband not particularly engaged with money. Whatever, she's handling it. She's better at math than I am. Then we go over to the wife. Wife is the one furiously keeping spreadsheets and doing random ways of tracking things. Does she know what it all means? Not really. But she manages the day-to-day. And when I ask them, "Is it working?" They both go, "No." But nothing changes. They have their roles and they are seemingly intractable.
How long have the two of you been together?
Seven years.
Seven years, married six months ago, right?
Yeah.
Congrats. Okay. I understand in your application there's been a discussion about starting a family.
We're kind of on the same page about starting the family. It really is just in the back of my mind, okay, we're on the same page of what we want to do, what we have in mind, what our family will look like, how many kids.
Two.
Two kids.
Two. Yeah.
Cool. And is there a timeline?
Soon. Yeah. Within the next year.
Cool.
Soon. Okay, everybody's on the same page. Great.
So, right, we're on the same page with these conversations. We have wonderful conversations. The idea is great, but then in the back of my mind, I'm like, okay, now where is any of the money going to come from to pay for that child's food and daycare? Daycare, oh my God. Things like that. So that's where the disconnect gets.
I think that we're very much on the same page. We want the same things with starting a family. The biggest thing with us is we just don't bring in enough money for what we want.
That's it. That's the problem.
Well, it's some of it, I would say.
What's the rest of it?
Just lack of motivation. And on my side of things, she's a doer.
Mhm.
I get very comfortable in my situations and I don't like change.
Uh-huh.
I think that's the big thing that she gets frustrated with me about.
That you're not motivated.
That I just get complacent and I just get kind of stagnant in my day-to-day routine.
How do you get connected about that? How do you reconcile that?
If I could change one thing about myself, that would be it. I hate not being comfortable, but nothing's comfortable. Going out doing job interviews is uncomfortable. This is uncomfortable. Talking to random people is uncomfortable. But those are just things that move you along and even make you a better person.
You talked to Grace about this. Have you told her this?
No.
No.
Grace wants to say, "I've been telling you this for years." Go ahead, Grace. Have your moment.
No. I have known that that is in there and I've known that that is the thing, right? I've known that that is his thing, is that he is so capable, but he just hates being uncomfortable.
I just think that I need to stop thinking about myself.
Mhm.
And I need to think more about our future. You would think that that would be enough to light the fire and to figure something out, but I'm just kind of stagnant sometimes.
Is this a thing where it's like, this isn't working. Let's have kids. That'll fix it.
No.
My team at IWT is fully remote and I love that. Because of that, we're constantly sending messages through Slack, through Google Drive, through all kinds of different technologies. And that's why my team is such a big fan of Wispr Flow. Wispr Flow turns the way you naturally talk into clean, ready-to-send text in any app on any device. I'm talking about Slack, Gmail, Notion, iMessage, even ChatGPT and Claude on Mac, Windows, and Android.
With Wispr Flow, you just hit a hotkey, speak, and the text appears way faster than typing it. Plus, it's smart, it's adaptive, so you don't send a block of huge incoherent text. And unlike other dictation apps, it corrects mistakes. It gets names right the first time and it can format bullet points and lists on the fly. I find that particularly useful.
So if you send tons of emails and messages every day, if you want to be able to capture your own ideas just by talking, Wispr Flow is a no-brainer. Get one month of Wispr Flow Pro for free at wisprflow.ai/ramit. That's wisprflow.ai/ramit, or click the link in the description.
It's kind of funny when I talk to small business owners who are super frustrated by the vendors that they work with because I'm like, you all know you're the boss, right? You can fire them. You can make changes today. So, if you don't like the platform that you are working with, move off of it. I've done it many times. If a CPA that you are working with goes dark on you after April, find somebody who's better.
And that is where our partners at Gelt come in. Gelt is a modern CPA firm that helps your business take control of your tax strategy year-round. By working with Gelt, you get access to one dedicated tax strategist with real human expertise powered by cutting-edge technology that handles the rest. And right now, they have two Q3 exclusive offers. Extension Rescue, where Gelt takes over your tax extension with fast onboarding and no stress, keeping you deadline-safe. The Retirement Catch-Up, where Gelt models your prior year retirement contribution opportunities to maximize what's on the table before October 15th. This offer is included for all new clients this quarter.
A great CPA is a year-round partner who stays in touch with you, and Gelt is taking on new clients now. Now is the time for business owners to get ahead. Not in January. So find out if you qualify at joingelt.com/ramit. That's joingelt.com/ramit.
I believe in him so deeply and I know he's so capable of moving on to the next thing, but he just gets in his own way of his own initiative. And I think that's what holds him back, is more of himself because it's not that he's not capable. It's not that he cannot move on to the next job or the next thing.
Do you find yourself encouraging him, giving him advice, if you just did this or if you say this at work, that kind of thing?
We're navigating that, I think. And that's something that we actively work on outside of here in our own therapy. Because yes, because I am a helper. I want to be a helper. And so I will admit, full stop, you watch me do it. I love to fill in his gaps because I know what I think he's trying to get at but not. And I know I need to control that better in myself. But I don't like to see people struggle or have people be uncomfortable. And so when someone I love is struggling and uncomfortable, then I want to step in.
What if I told you that I love that?
It's good to struggle and be uncomfortable and that's where growth happens and I know that. But it's easy for me to do that in my career because I do that all the time.
Which is?
I'm a therapist.
Okay. Amazing. And then you are in therapy as well, couples therapy. Okay.
And individual.
Yeah. Amazing.
All the things.
Okay. And Chris, what's your career?
I'm a warehouse manager for an industrial sales company.
Great. Okay. Is there a recent conversation where you can recall where you clashed or disagreed about money?
100%.
Go ahead.
It was just recently. We were at that baseball game and everybody knows you want a beer at a baseball game, you're running about $25 a beer. And we had a conversation prior to going into the weekend of, "Hey, I need this amount and this amount for the"
Taxes and the monthly bills from your paycheck. You've got a hundred left to spend for the weekend. Just know that. And we had that conversation. And then we get to the baseball game, and I want him to have fun. I want him to have fun. But then I'm watching him get beer after beer, buying other people drinks, and I'm like, "Okay, $100 is long gone. So what? Now we're supposed to go to dinner and do other things with this family all weekend. Where is that coming from?"
Where was the actual conversation? Where did that happen?
Miller Park.
Oh, yes.
At the game.
Okay. So, can we go through that? Can we actually recreate it?
I was like, "Hey."
Talk to him.
Hey, that's your fourth beer. Where's the money coming from for that? We had $100, and how are we going to pay for dinner tomorrow with your family?
I don't know. My family's in town, and we're just having fun, so we'll figure it out later.
And then I got up and walked away because I was like, this isn't going to go the way I want. We're not going to have a productive conversation. I'm just going to go sit by my in-laws. So, I moved seats.
What happened later as you went to dinner and paid for more things?
That's where I pulled from our annual funds.
You didn't talk to each other at dinner about, are we paying and how are we going to pay?
Nope. I had just moved some money and was like, well, I'll figure it out later.
Okay. So, that's interesting. So Chris, you said we'll figure it out, right?
Yeah.
And then who's "we" is going to figure it out? You're gesturing at her.
Grace.
Grace is going to figure it out. So really, it's you're going to figure it out later.
Yeah. Grace, where did you pull money from?
So we own our home. We don't pay a mortgage, but we have the taxes at the end of the year. And so we have a short money market account. And so what I do is I collect that money each month, and then I put it in there to grow.
Mhm.
So, this is a terrible way to think about it, and I know that this is a pattern, but I pull from that money because I'm like, well, I can just hope that the short money market grows enough to make up for the $150 I had to borrow from it.
Oh.
Yeah.
Does it work?
I don't know. Haven't checked. Haven't checked. Hope it works.
I actually love the answer. I love that you didn't even say no. You go, "I don't know."
I have no idea. We just pray it's working. I don't know.
Why not just tell Chris, "All right. Hey, listen. I understand you bought the beers. I wouldn't have done it. You did it. You got to figure out where the money's going to come from."
I don't know that it'd get done. I get anxious that it won't be fixed, and then it'll be a problem I have to fix later.
What if he has to fix it?
That would be lovely if I would not have a full anxiety freak-out about it. I'm a very, like I said, anxious, kind of type A. I don't know that I trust him to fix it because I don't know that he understands. He's not sat down with me to look at any of the numbers or anything of what I'm doing. So, I guess my thought is, how could he fix a problem that he doesn't even know exists because he doesn't know the foundation of the problem?
Maybe if you just keep figuring it out yourself, then one day he'll magically get it.
Oh, no.
No, no. Chris.
Yeah. No.
No. And this is the pattern, right? I know the pattern, but I cannot seem to change it.
Can you tell me how money flows in your relationship? Where does the money go? You both work. What happens to the money then, Grace?
Yeah. So I get paid once a month. He gets paid weekly. My paycheck immediately goes towards our monthly expenses, and that's pretty much it. So mine I don't really have any of after. Mine is put in and immediately distributed. And then his each week is distributed differently depending. And then also out of his paycheck is our gas and grocery money.
You mentioned his income's variable, right? What if he didn't make enough to cover groceries? What would you do?
I try to prioritize making sure those annual and monthly bills are paid, and then I lower the amount of money we have for groceries. So, you're just eating ramen out of the pantry.
Has that happened?
Yeah.
It starts to taste boring after a little bit.
Which kind of ramen do you get?
The chicken one.
Top Ramen. The orange one.
I love that. It's good. It's good. It's good. All right.
And I've mastered it in a microwave.
Oh, okay. Wow. All right.
But no, it's not ideal.
Is your money joint or is it separate?
So, it comes in separate obviously, but then he just transfers over to me, and I disperse it between our accounts.
Okay. So, do you have any joint accounts?
Yes, it's been on a hiatus for a little bit, so we have not been able to put anything in it for a while. But that's usually like, hey, let's put this much in, and he'll send it. We both have access to it, so we can send the money into it.
Okay. I noticed that when I'm asking about the account flows, Grace, you're talking. Chris has been silent for quite a while. Chris, what's going on with you?
I think just because she's more knowledgeable, and I don't really know what I'm doing, for the most part.
Okay. What do you notice about these roles that each of you are playing?
It sounds very individual to me. There's no teamwork. It's like, "Oh, hey, I'm going to do this." "Oh, okay."
They're very passive.
Yep.
There's not much actual interaction.
Why?
I don't know. Avoidance.
Yeah.
Avoiding argument, avoiding disagreement.
Yeah. What realizations are you having right now?
I thought I had a handle on it more than I even did. And now talking through this, I realize I'm much more passive than I thought I was. I try to be the planner. I try to be the executor and engage others.
Uh-huh.
But the follow-through isn't great. It's kind of just in the clouds.
Yeah.
Hoping that it works out.
Chris?
I have no idea what I'm doing.
Mhm. Okay. All right. So, there's work to be done.
Yes.
Let's put it that way. Okay. I'm going to put the Conscious Spending Plan up on screen. Before we look at the numbers, what was it like to do the CSP together?
I kind of took a backseat a little bit, and she filled out the numbers as usual.
She did. You pull out the computer, Grace, and start putting the numbers in?
Yes.
Uh-huh. And did you ask him for input?
No.
Let me tell you what I think you interpreted the assignment to be. Even though it's spelled out, Grace, you interpreted the assignment to be, we got to fill out these numbers. I know the numbers, so I'm going to fill it out. Hey, Chris, come sit down and watch, but I'm going to fill it out. And Chris, you interpreted it as, "Oh, there's some money thing that has to be done." And so, yeah, she's got it. She'll figure it out. And yeah, I'm here. Okay.
We misunderstood the assignment.
What is the actual assignment?
To sit down and do this together and really look at these numbers. Ask each other questions about things you don't understand or something that might not make sense.
Communicate.
Connect.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Communicate. I don't care if one of the numbers is 50% wrong. We could fix the math. But you did not talk about it at all.
No.
And I think this is true of different parts of your financial life. So this is something that we have to work towards. Okay. And the CSP is just easy black-and-white math, but it provides a very powerful instruction on how couples complete it. Okay, let's take a look at the numbers. Grace, can you read off the words in bold and then the numbers next to it for this entire box, please?
Assets, $390,000. Investments, $119,500. Savings, $7,350. Debt, $22,483. Total net worth, $494,367.
Okay. What do you think about the numbers?
Fine, I think. So the assets, a lot of that is our home.
Do you feel anything looking at these numbers?
I'm disappointed that my debt is that high.
Okay. Chris, what do you think about these numbers?
I like the investment number. Savings is just low because we don't bring in enough monthly to save.
Mhm.
But the debt's kind of a big one there.
Okay. Let's go down to the income. This time, Chris, can you read off your combined gross monthly income?
$9,377.
Okay, cool. So that means the two of you combined make about $112,000 per year. What does a couple who makes $112,000 do with their money living in the area that you live?
The median income, we are on the low side even with that $112,000 for the area that we live in.
Can I ask you to guess what the median income in your neighborhood is?
I feel like it's around $175,000 to $180,000.
Okay.
Per household, right? Are you talking per individual?
Per household.
Yeah. $175,000, $180,000.
Okay.
I think about $150,000.
$150,000. You know the real number?
I'm going to be really embarrassed. Probably.
$113,000.
You're lying.
Nope.
Oh, wow.
Wow.
What does that tell you, Chris?
I'm stunned.
Sounds like we're not good with our money choices.
How? Connect the dots for me. How did you come to that?
What did you call it? The average. The median is kind of right on par with what ours is.
Mhm. And so?
But yet we're struggling.
Yes.
This much. Yes. No kids.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we're going to go into some of your other numbers as well. Grace, what is occurring to you?
I'm just shocked.
Mhm. Why?
Because it feels impossible to live where we live and make ends meet with our income, but clearly everyone else can seem to do it. So, there must be patterns and behaviors and choices that we're making that are not helping that.
Let's keep going down the list. Fixed—whoa. What's that number, Grace?
Wait, do I... 108.
108%. What does that tell you?
Uh-huh. That we spend more a month than we make.
On just fixed costs.
Mhm. Yeah. It's not great.
You spend more than you make every single month. It is simply a matter of time until you are broke.
Mhm.
Beyond broke, until you lose it all. When you walked in here, what did you think the severity of the situation was? Chris, did you know?
I knew it was bad.
Did you know what that meant?
Enough. I knew enough what it meant.
Oh.
I think.
So then did you accordingly say to Grace, "We have to change everything. We have to light a fire. We have to red alert. We have to stop everything we're doing"?
No. I guess I didn't fully understand that then.
Feel like that's kind of a pattern here.
Mhm. And Grace, did you understand what 108% meant?
Yes. I understood it in the way of, I know what it meant but did not know how to take action. I don't know how to fix that.
But you didn't say to Chris, "Red alert, we're not doing this anymore. We're not going to spend this. Here's what's going to happen. This is what's going to happen. I am becoming coach of this team now."
I think I try, but maybe not hard enough or not as intense because I avoid conflict or disagreement.
You two are skating on very thin ice. You're close to losing a lot. You have one month's worth of savings here, but that still has not made you have honest conversations about money. You are still tiptoeing around each other. And you're married and talking about starting a family.
Yeah.
You might notice that I am pushing them. I'm doing this for a very specific reason. They are oblivious to the severity of the situation, and they are used to dealing in comfort. People will fill out applications. They will go through months of screening. They will fly here to meet me, and then suddenly, when presented with the reality of the situation, they will often revert back to the way they were. They will start to minimize. "Oh, it's actually not that bad. We're actually fine. We just need a budget."
I don't let that happen because if you went out of your way, you applied, it takes a lot of courage. I'm not going to let you go home just so that you feel comfortable. My invisible script is not "comfort is awesome all the time." My invisible script is "sometimes uncomfortable conversations are amazing." That is why I am pushing them to see what's really going on here. And I'm warning you right now, I'm going to keep pushing. In fact, I'm going to push harder, and it's going to happen for this entire episode.
How do you own a home at this young of an age?
I'm very fortunate. My grandma and I buy property together, and so she and I own our home together. So we bought it in cash.
Oh, you bought the house that you live in now in cash.
Correct.
All right. So, your property taxes are $1,067 a month. Wow, that's low.
Mhm.
Which means your housing costs are 11.3% of your gross income. That's amazing. Super low.
Yeah.
Which then raises the question, why is this happening? Let's take a look at the rest. Utilities are $412. Insurance is $922. That's pretty high.
Yeah. So, what had happened was he had a subsidy that was given to him, and we, being naive in understanding how marriage works, didn't realize that as soon as we got married, we would have to back pay any of the subsidy, and then the premium skyrocketed. But now we're locked into a premium that we didn't realize would skyrocket, if that makes sense, till the end of the year.
And then what's going to happen?
I'm just kind of hoping to land a new job that has insurance.
Okay. Car payments, $502.
Yep.
That includes gas?
No.
Where's the gas?
The gas is in our grocery and gas amount, and it's $600. And then we do not have an exact amount of what we pay for gas versus groceries. I just put $600 in that account. That's just, I guess, something I've never calculated, how much I spend in gas and how often I fill it.
Okay. I think it's probably higher than that. I always estimate higher because I want to be conservative in my planning. I never want to get to the end of a month or a year and owe money. Never. If anything, I want to have extra money. So, I always am conservative in my estimates. So, if this says $600, what do you think it realistically is?
$800.
Yeah.
Yeah. Maybe $800. Plus, gas right now where we live is insane.
Mhm. I think it's $900 at least. I think it's probably higher, but I'm going to go there. You spend it on a credit card?
No, a debit card. The debt we have is from credit card debt. So, we have ceased all credit card use. So, we are not...
People in credit card debt, use debit cards. Okay. All right. We were going to get there. Debt payments at $1,218 a month. How much credit card debt do you have?
It's all credit card debt.
All debt is credit card debt?
Correct.
What did you spend it on?
Our house, getting married, fixes to the house. When we moved in, we had a pipe burst. Then we had an HVAC issue. Then we had a bathroom flood. So we spent that on having to remodel the bathroom.
That debt's kind of old debt. It's been there a while. So what I've done is I've moved it to cards that have a 0% for X amount of months. That debt number payoff plan is to try and get that debt paid off within that increment so I'm not being charged the interest.
Is it going to happen?
If we can stick with that 112, yes.
Okay, that's a good answer. How much is left on the car?
His car is paid off. The $502 is my car. It's a newer car. We got it within the last six months.
What'd you get?
A Ford Bronco Sport.
Ford Bronco Sport. Like an SUV.
Yeah, like a little...
How much did that cost?
Love that car. $30,000, $32,000.
What's the real number? The way you say it made me question that.
I'm not really sure. I know that that's my monthly payment, and I'm on a 72-month something or other.
Why'd you do that?
Lack of knowledge. Sounded good to me at the time.
I note that the car payment is not included in your
Debt.
Oh, that would just be a misstep on not realizing that.
Okay, let's fix it right now. So, if it's 22 plus roughly $30,000.
Yeah, roughly 30.
Let's make it 52.
Okay.
Pets. What is this number?
It's a lot of different things. I can parse it all out for you, but it's a lot.
$735 a month on pets.
Yes, we have the cutest little dachshunds in the world, but one of them has two.
Okay.
Chronic pancreatitis. And so he has a very special diet and probiotic and medicine that he has to take in order to be okay.
All right. Subscriptions are at 167, which include—I like that you listed these off—Spotify, streaming, fitness, iCloud, Cooper's. What's Cooper's?
Cooper's Hawk.
Huh?
It's a winery. It's $20 a month.
Okay.
But it's, yeah.
All right. You are in for quite a bit of changes under my guidance. Hey Buddy, what's that?
That's our dog—if your dog gets lost, it's their little tracker.
Okay. Ring camera, Amazon Prime, fine. Grace Wellness, which includes a GLP-1 and hair extensions.
Yeah.
Okay. And that's 662 per month.
Yeah.
Cleaning service and therapy is 280 a month. And then miscellaneous, which CSP automatically adds for 15%, is 903. I actually think that is completely accurate and potentially even under because of all the things you mentioned that you are not currently counting.
All right. So, you all are at $7,868 per month. And just to reflect, you have less than one month's worth of savings as a couple with no kids, very low housing costs, who make $112,000 gross per year. Chris, what are you hearing right now?
That we both might have a little bit of lack of knowledge.
Yes. Because you've said multiple times today, well, she's really smart at this stuff. She knows these numbers. Does it sound like that?
No. This is blind leading the blind here.
I think that's a really apt way. Yeah. Not to be insulting.
No, I feel that way.
Yeah. Avoiders do this. They use a series of conscious and unconscious techniques to avoid engaging with money. And one of them is they say, "Well, my partner's just good at this. They're smart. I'm not so good with numbers." You are using that phrase to perpetuate this dynamic.
Yeah.
Now, at the same time, Grace, the fact that you've been unable to say, "I don't know what I'm doing," to actually even acknowledge that, like, what I'm doing, I'm moving money around, 0% transfers, 72 months for a car loan, but even acknowledging that activity is not the same as results. But you've got to be able to acknowledge it and then ask for help.
I've tried, and it's usually met with, "I know, I just need to get a different job." And then the conversation goes nowhere. So that's why I'm here. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what else to do anymore. I don't know how to ask for help. I don't—
I'm glad you're here. I'm going to try to help unravel some of this, but I just want to point out the language you're even using. "I've tried to have the conversation." For something as important as we are going broke, I don't try anything.
Yeah.
I make it happen.
Mhm.
Chris, you hearing this?
Mhm.
What's going through your head right now?
That I need to stop shoving it all on her.
And start?
And I need to start taking responsibility.
How would you do it?
By instead of just sitting behind her, maybe saying, "Let me at least try and handle this myself, or let me do it with you instead of just sitting there and watching."
What about actually doing it?
Yeah, give it a try. See how it goes.
You all mentioned you want to have kids, right?
Yeah.
When your kid tries to read, are they going to be good at reading? No, they're going to be horrible. They can't read a single letter. They don't know anything. So, are you going to say, "Mommy's better at reading, so let her do it"?
No.
No. That'd be absurd.
Yeah.
Yeah. We do it all the time as adults with money. We are bad at money when we start doing it. Of course we are, like anything else. Playing basketball, cooking, any of it. Now, cooking, you might be able to get away with it because you're just like, "We don't care. Ramen, whatever." Okay, fine. But money is unlike that.
Mhm.
Money isn't like we're going to have to eat ramen noodles. Money is we can't afford to have children, or we might become homeless even though we own our house. That's why I think it's different. What's your assessment?
I need to make some changes.
Yeah, this is pretty dire.
When I started I Will Teach You to Be Rich over 20 years ago, business organization platforms were not really a thing, especially for small businesses. Massive companies had big bespoke CRM software, but I was just a college kid trying to get to Taco Tuesday. Now, if you already have a business, you don't need to cobble together random tools like I did way back then. Instead, make things easier on yourself and harness the power of AI using NetSuite, this episode's sponsor.
NetSuite is the AI-powered business management suite that securely connects all of your data. And now you get extra advantages with NetSuite Next, which lets you automatically surface custom insights, use AI agents for routine tasks, and get answers to complex questions in plain language, just like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, it's time for NetSuite Next, where your business meets AI. If I'd had this system back when I was building IWT, it would have changed everything.
If your revenues are in at least the seven figures, get their free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI Is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/ramit. That guide is free to you at netsuite.com. netsuite.com.
You know this phrase, once the toothpaste is out of the tube, you can't put it back in. Same thing is true for your personal information. Once the internet knows your siblings' names or your address and how much your house cost, you can't take that information back. So, what do you do? Well, the best thing is go back 20 years in time and change your data practices. But that can't happen anymore. The second best thing you can do is use DeleteMe, one of my favorite tools to protect your privacy starting right now.
DeleteMe is a subscription service that removes your personal data from the internet. We're talking about things like your full name, email, phone number, address, even your parents' names, all found and removed. They've been the leading expert in personal information removal for the last 15 years. They were recently named Wirecutter's number one data removal service. And I personally use and pay for DeleteMe, and I love it, and I know you will too.
You'll get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to joindeleteme.com/ramit and use promo code RAMIT at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com/ramit, code RAMIT for 20% off.
Investments are at zero.
Mhm.
Which—
Zero added to the ones that are there.
Sorry. Yeah, you do contribute $136 a month to a 401(k).
Yes. And then we have maxed out his Roth IRA for this year. So we put in 7,500 for that. So we're not—
Where'd the money come from?
The passing of my grandmother. I inherited some things. And so that's what a lot of our investments are, is—
Oh.
Money.
I was wondering. Okay. So how much did you inherit?
I think it was like 80.
And you put some of it into investments.
Mhm. Okay.
And then started a retirement because he doesn't have any through his career.
I see. And the house?
We own joint tenancy, so it's—
So it falls to you.
Yeah.
Okay. So you had 80. Where did the rest of this investments of 119 come from?
That's including my retirement that I already have and then his retirement that we put in.
So a lot of the investments, while it's real money and it's your money, it came from an inheritance.
Correct.
What does that tell you?
You're not properly investing.
No, not for your income at $112,000. And we can see that because you're contributing zero.
Mhm.
Per month post-tax. Going on to savings at zero as well. And then finally, guilt-free spending at 13%, which we know is not true because you all are spending guilt-free spending, including ball games. What else do you spend money on?
Dinners.
Yeah, his family is very social, so we go to a lot of events. We just spend a lot of time with his family, and they like to do things. So we usually—
Ball game, eat out. What else?
Wine walks.
What's that? What's a wine walk?
It's like little—
They're really fun. They don't have them here.
No, like little towns.
You literally get a lanyard with a wine glass around your neck, and you get to go between shops, and they give you a little taste of wine, and it's the coolest thing.
And does it cost to get in, or do you pay?
Yeah, it's like 50 bucks.
All right. You all are 29 and 30. I wouldn't blame you for going out and having fun.
We enjoy them.
All right.
I have fun.
Okay. What else do you spend money on?
I will be transparent. I spend a lot of money on clothes lately. My body has changed a lot. I've lost a lot of weight recently, so I've had to buy a lot of clothes lately.
What are some of the shops that you shop at or places online?
I love Amazon.
Uh-huh. And how many clothes are we talking about?
Probably more than I could ever imagine because I don't really keep track of it.
Chris, you mentioned Amazon boxes earlier.
Yeah.
How many of those boxes are coming in the house?
Multiple weekly.
When we left to come here, I opened the door, and there was like three things on the front step.
Okay. What I want to know is eating out.
Yeah.
I just want a quick number off the top of your head. No calculation needed. Eating out, including coffee, lunch, dinner, breakfast, any of it. How many times a week do you think that the two of you eat out?
Twice.
Twice. Okay, Chris, quick number.
Like three.
Three times. Okay, great. Welcome to another episode of Ramit Sethi's law of eating out, where people tell me that they think they only ate out three times a week, and the answer turns out to be at least three times higher than whatever they told me. You've heard me do this on the podcast before, and I love this.
I ran Grace and Chris through my little audit. What do you all eat for Sunday breakfast? What about for dinner? What about for coffee? And the number we landed on was not two like Grace guessed. It was not three like Chris suggested. It wasn't 5, 10, or 12. It was 15.
What the hell is wrong with you, America? I don't mind if you eat out a lot. Fine. If you can afford it and you love it, God bless. But can we stop lying to ourselves? Can we stop saying, "Oh, I only eat out three times a week," and then by Tuesday, you've already eaten out six times a week? Come on, let's get realistic.
I want you to try this exercise yourself. Leave me a comment today on how many times you thought you ate out every week, including coffee, lunch, dinner, breakfast, a snack, brunch, any of it. And then tell me what the total tally is for the week. I bet you're going to be surprised.
15 times per week. What do you make of that?
Too much.
Yeah, it's ridiculous because we're drowning, and we should be making food at home and going to the grocery store. And—
Anybody surprised by the fact that you thought it was twice a week and it's actually 15?
Not surprised. No, I had a feeling that I was not a good estimate.
What do you make of this, that—
It's probably more than that too because I get lunch.
You all have concocted a reality that is not real. We are trying to get to the root of what's going on here. You eat out 20 times if we factor in the days you eat out and probably the stuff we didn't even count.
Mhm.
You said two, it's 20. So, you all are spending thousands per month on stuff that we would technically call guilt-free, but it's not. It's just discretionary. I think we can make some big changes.
Please.
Would you be open to it?
Very.
Yeah. Both.
Yes. Please.
I like that.
Yeah.
I like that energy. Okay, I need to understand how you got here, Chris. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were younger?
There wasn't a whole lot of talk about it. I was pretty fortunate growing up. My dad had a good job. My mom had a good job. We lived in a pretty decent-sized home.
How big?
3,000.
Okay.
Square feet. It was my sister, me and my brother. I was able to play sports, play on the travel teams where you had to spend a little bit more money to play, and I always got the glove and the baseball bat and the nice basketball shoes. And it was very steady for us, and I really had no problems growing up.
What money messages do you think you grew up with that you are now bringing to this relationship?
I didn't have to worry about it. So I guess growing up now, I am kind of chill about it.
Chill, what does that mean?
Yeah. I just didn't have to worry about that growing up. And I feel like that's a bad trait that I've taken as a kid. And it's—
But it's interesting because the way you describe it is, you said it in the first two sentences. You said, "I grew up very fortunate."
Yes.
"My parents never talked about money to us."
Mhm.
And here you are today, 25 years later, not talking about money. In fact, highly avoidant with money. You're still not paying attention, just as you didn't pay attention to money when you were a kid. What's the problem?
Well, when we say it like that, it sounds like there is no problem.
There's no problem for you. Yeah. Who has the problem?
My wife.
Yes. And if your wife has a problem, then who else has a problem?
Us together.
Yes.
So then I have the problem.
Yes.
As well.
Yes. If I were you, I might reinterpret the way I was raised, which is, look, my parents were awesome. They did the best they could. They gave us a great childhood. However, they never talked about money, and that has actually really cost me a lot. I never had to pay attention. I never even knew it was a thing. And now as an adult, I'm struggling to actually care about money, to talk about money. My wife is telling me she feels like she's on a sinking ship. And I think back, I wish my parents had talked about it. And I wish I had taken a little bit more interest in it. Do you see how reinterpreting your narrative, whether it's your childhood or adult life, can dramatically change the way that you look at today?
Yeah.
Yeah. I thought it was really interesting when Chris said, "I was really fortunate growing up. My parents never talked about money." As if the two go hand in hand. As if talking about money is a bad thing because the only way to talk about money is if you are worried about it. Look at my face. Do I look like I'm worried about money? No. I get the opportunity to talk about it. Money means, "Ooh, I can buy a new phone." Money means I can take a trip or buy some Doritos. Money is not simply a source of stress and overwhelm and guilt. But that is the invisible script going on here.
Now, not surprisingly, Chris did not talk about money, fortunately. And guess what? He doesn't talk about money today because, just like his childhood, somebody else manages it. Both of them have been subsidized in one way or another. There's inheritance, there's a home, there's somebody taking care of the money. And when you are subsidized, it becomes very difficult for you to live in reality and to understand what it would be like to have to do things on your very own. That's why this conversation is proving so challenging right now.
Grace, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?
There wasn't much talk of it when I was young. We didn't have a lot of it. I grew up with a single mom. There were times in my life where we were feeding or paying our babysitter with food out of our fridge. It was pretty dire in different ways. I was a student that was provided free lunch at school because we didn't have the money. My mom worked her tail off, three jobs, single mom. So money was not
Prevalent. What did she say?
She really didn't talk about it much. I think she really tried to be a protector of keeping adult problems an adult problem and not talking about it with a little kid.
You grew up in the Midwest?
Yeah.
How many siblings?
Growing up at that time, my mom got remarried, and then that kind of shifted also my financial experience too. But when I was little, I just have one full sibling.
One sibling. And then you mentioned your mom got remarried. What age were you when she got remarried?
I was 10. And my wonderful stepfather, he has a great job and he moved us to a nice home, a nice area.
Take me through that moment. So you were financially struggling until the age of 10. And then suddenly your stepdad has a stable job, etc. What was that experience like for you?
Total 180. It was like, oh, I can play sports. I can afford to be a cheerleader and take these gymnastics classes, and I can buy clothes and I don't have to take hand-me-downs from people.
What did it feel like?
Exciting. Secure.
What does that mean?
Just that I wasn't stressed or worried that my needs would be met.
Were you before?
I knew she was gone a lot. You can kind of read between the lines. You're intuitive, and I think I knew that. You're like, why does my mom have so many jobs, and why is she gone all the time, and why does someone have to watch me? So you kind of make your own narrative of maybe what's going on.
What was the narrative?
Just that life was hard and my mom needed to work a lot to make ends meet.
So age 10, your mom remarries, you feel more secure, you're able to participate in school activities. What happens in your teenage years with money?
My parents are divorced, and so I never lived with my dad, so I'm not sure. I know their financial aspect is a little different. But in the household I grew up, I never really wanted for anything. I never felt deprived of something that I needed.
Is your mom and stepdad still together, or are they separated?
They are.
Okay. How are they doing with money?
I don't know. We don't talk about it.
At all?
Not really. No.
Okay. Got it. Did you go to college?
Yes.
How'd you pay for that?
I was very fortunate. My grandfather and my grandmother had an inheritance, or a college fund, for each of the cousins.
Oh.
Yeah. We were—
What did they do to have all this inheritance? Quite impressive.
My grandfather was a fantastic architect.
Wow.
Yeah. And he and your grandmother, seems like they saved and invested a whole bunch to be able to pass that.
Trusts. Yes. For tests. Yeah.
So they paid for your college. Do you know how much approximately that cost?
My undergrad and my grad school in total was probably about $230,000.
Whoa.
Yeah.
That's quite a gift.
And I don't even have words to explain the gift.
Yeah. Okay.
I am beyond lucky to have had that privilege.
Do you take anything away from the example that your grandparents set by being able to give this money multiple generations later?
I would love to do that. I have no idea how they managed it. They seem to have had it really well figured out. My grandfather and my grandmother were very smart with their finances, and I wish prior to their passings I had taken more time to understand that.
Are you having those conversations in this relationship?
No. I would like to be, but I don't know how to start them.
Grace, what messages do you bring from childhood to this relationship?
I think it was, it'll all work itself out. So it'll all be fine.
It is fine when mom and dad are the ones doing it.
Yeah.
And you mentioned your mom was the protector when it comes to money.
Yeah. I think she put her head down and worked her tail off and was like, I don't want my kids to see me struggle, and I'm going to make happen what I need to make happen for them.
Who's the protector in this relationship when it comes to money?
Me, maybe. I don't know.
Yes.
I think I'm shielding him from having to know the struggle of it.
Yes.
God, you're good at that.
Yeah. No, that makes sense. And when your mom protected you from money, what was she doing in the moment?
I think the intention was good.
Which was?
To not feel the stress or the pain of struggling.
Because she doesn't like to see people she loves struggle.
Or be uncomfortable, which is what I don't like. And I don't want him to struggle or be uncomfortable.
Maybe you can do this with your kids, huh? Not see them struggle, not see them be uncomfortable. And then when they grow up, they can do it to their partners. And then for five generations, we can just carry this on.
No. No. No.
Huh?
No. No thanks.
No.
Wow. Chris, what was that? That was a real gangster attitude right there. No thanks, mother. Where did that come out of?
We got to break the cycle.
Yeah.
Got to break the cycle.
What cycle, though?
The talking about money, talking about uncomfortable things, being okay with being uncomfortable. I hate being uncomfortable.
So you're willing to do it?
Yeah.
Well, you are being uncomfortable by being here right now. I could tell.
Yeah. 100%.
And I appreciate that. This is not easy for anybody. So you are ready to change the cycle. That power you had when you said no, that spoke to me for the first time. It's amazing, Chris, that you are willing to kind of let this dynamic persist, the one where you don't talk about money, etc. But when it comes to a future child that's not even born yet, you are fierce about it not continuing.
That is a conversation that we've had.
Yeah.
Yes.
You have had it with him?
Yes. Because that's my thing, is this is the only other thing we dispute about, is why are you ready to make the changes when a child is here? But why can we not make them ahead of time to set ourselves up for that?
Okay. And have you said, this is what I need before we have kids?
I don't know what I need. I don't know. And I think that's part of it too, is why we're here. I need to figure out what I need for that to feel okay and ready.
You want to do it right now?
Sure.
Time like the present.
Yeah. Yeah.
I don't like homework anyway. Might as well just do it now. What do you think?
That's why I was—
By the way, correction for America. I don't like homework for me as a 43-year-old man who dominated homework. For the kids, you get the homework and you better do it. We're gonna find out what you both want and need. Have you ever talked about what your rich life is?
No.
Okay.
No.
Well, people who have talked about their rich life, they answer like that vaguely.
What's a rich life?
You tell me.
Because my rich life, I don't need to be a millionaire. I don't need to be a trillionaire. I just need to be able to be stable enough to have a family.
Okay.
Do things when we get asked to, or if we want to on the weekends with family and friends.
Be specific.
I want to make enough money to just be comfortable where we are. I want to have a family. I want to eat out 15 times a week.
That's fine. If that's what you want, tell me.
Sure.
Okay, great.
That would be great.
Great.
I would love to have for my kids, if they say, "Hey, Dad, I want to play this sport." Great.
You want to give them the same childhood you had?
Yeah.
Okay.
That would be awesome. That's it. That's the rich life.
That would be awesome.
It feels very surface level. It's literally just a recitation of how you grew up. If you don't like travel, I'm not forcing you to travel. That's your life, not mine.
I'm not a big traveler.
Food, leisure, convenience. For me to be able to treat my family because they live close by and they like going to a ball game, and gosh, once a year I sure would like to get box seats. That would be a rich life. But what I'm hearing is, I want to be able to live a comfortable life.
Yeah.
That's boring.
But I'm a simple man.
What I'm trying to get at is, is there something deeper here? And I think if you just wanted to learn how to save a little bit of money, there's plenty of places you could have gone. Why did you come here?
We came here because my wife, she knew who you were and knew what you were about. And her therapist wanted us to check you out.
You came here because your wife wanted to come here.
Sure.
I think that might be the crux of what's going on here.
Maybe a little.
The avoidance seeps into every part of your life. You're even avoiding talking about your own rich life. I didn't care if you came to me and said, "I want to buy $150,000 worth of shoes." I would be like, "God bless. Let's figure out how to do it." But if you can't even do that, your rich life, not even hers, yours, it's going to be very difficult for you two to make progress together. I want you to think about that.
Grace, I want to ask you about your rich life. Actually, before I get to that, what did you notice as I was speaking to Chris about his rich life?
I think he wants more than he's saying.
Oh.
I think he has more rich life ideas that he's just not saying.
Like?
We want to add onto our house, and we talk about that and growing, and how he wants, just in more detail. I think he could say in more detail what he wants. I know he says he's simple, but I think in his head there's more detail than he's saying.
Yeah. Sometimes I don't articulate the best.
Yeah. It is nerve-wracking here. We got a bunch of lights and all that stuff. Fair enough.
No, he's just a man of few words. He has such great ideas and things that he wants, and I just don't think maybe you describe them in the way that you want.
Grace, are you okay being with a man of few words?
Sometimes.
Because I'm struggling to find out what your rich life is. And I know how to do this. What I want is change. And sometimes, Grace, the way to do that is to set an expectation and hold the partner accountable. But because you don't like to see people uncomfortable, you are currently unable to do that. And so you fill the void. All these are just stories you tell yourself.
What if you just changed that? What if you flipped it? Oh, as of yesterday, I was not good at letting people that I love be uncomfortable. But starting today, I am extremely good. In fact, I love it because I know that every second of their discomfort makes them stronger. I wonder if we could just change our narrative.
Grace, what's your rich life?
I love coffee shops and going and trying unique coffee shops, and I would love to go and try as many coffee shops as I want and not worry about how expensive the latte is. We want a fence in our yard so our dogs can run around, and we want to put a play gym or whatever we want to put back there, and have an all-seasons room, and we want to add on to our primary bedroom. So I would love to add on because we do plan to stay in that house. We love our house.
What about for the two of you?
I would love for us to be able to still have date nights after having children.
Nice.
I would love to really be intentional about time for connection with each other. I would love to be able to afford child care if needed, or figure out how to navigate that with our families, because we do have families that really want to be involved, which is wonderful. But also, if they're not available, I want to figure that out, about how you financially work all those things out. I'd love to travel. We don't travel a lot, but if we had the means to travel, I think we would more.
Okay. What about for yourself?
There are some things that are also on our Conscious Spending Plan that I do, like better self-care, and that are important to me. So some of the medications I take or what I do with my hair, that is really important for my overall well-being and mental health, and so those I'd like to keep intact.
Great. Chris, what do you hear when she describes her rich life?
I feel like hers was more home oriented. We do want to put on a three-seasons room. We do want to fence the yard.
Yep. It actually told me a bit of who she is. What I heard in that was, "Oh, she loves coffee. Okay, that's interesting. She's a coffee lover, and she'd like to be able to do date night with the two of you." And then there's something about child care and expanding the—like, "Oh, okay. I kind of get who she is." That's what I want to know. When I ask people about their rich life, if you asked me, I would talk about hotels and travel and convenience, and you'd be like, "This guy is a little weird, but I can tell the kind of guy he is." The more that the two of you are specific about it, the more that we can rework some of your numbers.
I would also love to add, if we could afford to have a lawn service.
Yeah.
To where they could take care of our landscaping and that.
See, I knew you would like that one. I knew that would get—Chris just goes, "Yeah, get those lawn guys out here immediately."
Talking about, he knows it's in his head. He just doesn't think to say it. But we have to—
Kids and lawn care. Is that your thing?
Yeah. I mow the lawn once a week. I got my little push mower.
What age are you going to make your own kids mow the lawn?
Maybe like 17, 18.
That's too late. What are you talking about? 17 years old to mow a lawn.
16.
I thought you were going to say six. I was like, "My man."
17 for a push mower.
Bro, I was out there at age, what, 10, 11, mowing that.
This is honestly pretty hard, especially because they have never faced actual consequences for their financial behavior. Sure, they spend more than they make, but they still have Spotify. They still buy all this cool dog food. So how am I going to get through to them? One thing that I can try to do is show them what is reasonably likely to happen if they make no changes. But I don't know if it's going to really land or not. I'm going to try my best.
If nothing changes in your finances, if nothing changes in the way that you communicate, what's going to happen?
She's going to keep looking away. I'm going to keep looking away. We're not going to be on the same page.
And then?
And then we're going to be broke. And then that's it.
No, keep going. It's important that you actually understand what's at stake here.
And then I don't know, probably have to sell the house.
Yes. And then?
Sell everything. Get rid of everything until there's nothing left. And then you have nothing.
Yeah. How would that affect your relationship?
Terribly. I'm not going anywhere with her, but I'm sure it would be not ideal.
Is it possible that the environment you grew up in was not particularly healthy for money? Even though you all had a pretty nice upbringing for your entire childhood and after the age of 10, is it possible you may have had things but you did not learn knowledge?
100%.
100%.
I always say these are the things I wish they taught you in school.
You all are adults now. It's on YouTube. The freaking books are at the public library.
It's on my dining room table.
Did you read it?
Not yet. I wanted to read it together. So I haven't started myself because I figured if I started myself, I would do it all myself. It's Money for Couples, not money for one.
Did you tell him that?
I told him yes, I'd like to read it, but it didn't really go past that.
Okay. You all walk around eggshells for—
The rest of your life, right into being, right into losing the house.
And the future family that you mentioned about having a child or multiple children, what will they learn about money if nothing changes?
Not good things, not good habits, not good patterns.
What will they learn?
How to avoid talking about money, how to just hope it all works out.
Chris, we're good people. I think our kids are going to grow up and see that we're good people. But if we keep going on this path, our kids for sure won't learn anything.
They'll learn watching the two of you. If nothing changes, moms are the ones who should be freaking out about money. Moms are the ones who try to convince dad to participate, but dad doesn't want to because dad wants to buy the things he wants. And then mom is the one who figures it out. Not sure if mom's even good at money, though, but we got what we wanted. We were very fortunate. They observe dads are the ones who are carefree, chill, easygoing. How's that strike you?
Accurate.
Yeah. Very.
You all want to let your daughter grow up thinking that mom is the one who has to take on all the burden and dad gets to do whatever he wants?
Absolutely not.
And a son?
No.
No. So, let's change it. We're going to look at your numbers. Chris, I want you to take a leadership role in this. You all are on the path to losing what you've got and potentially having to sell the house in the future. I need you to make changes.
And I'm going to give you a little suggestion. Typically, people who are spending more than the 60% I recommend for fixed costs, they chip away by, let's cut Hulu, let's cut this, let's cut that. That's not going to work in your situation. You can't. So, I want you to actually start with a blank page, and I want you to tell me, what do you envision the kind of lifestyle that you want right now? It can't be the lifestyle you have.
Well, I feel like the pets is pretty—can't mess with that one. Phone's pretty stable. Maybe take out the Cooper's Hawk wine subscription.
That's $20.
Yeah.
You want to see what the effect of that is?
It's nothing.
I'll just show you. So, instead of 60, we're going to make this 40. And watch this number up here, this 113%. It drops to—
Nothing.
Nothing. Think bigger and move faster.
The 662, hair and GLP-1. That's kind of a cosmetic thing, but I know it makes her happy. But maybe if we take that off the board, something might happen.
Ask her, is she willing to make that change?
She's not.
Then ask her. How do you—
Are you willing to make that change?
No.
Okay.
Yeah. That's my mental well-being. When you have a condition where hair loss is a thing—
Okay.
Taking care of that is something important.
I was not aware of that. Thank you for clarifying. Let's keep it.
Can I take a second?
Yeah, of course.
Want to join her?
Sure.
I don't mind that my guests sometimes cry. I don't mind that they get uncomfortable. I don't mind that sometimes we have to take a break and they leave the room because these are very, very overwhelming feelings to encounter. Chris and Grace are actually discussing money in a way that they have never done before. And yeah, I am pushing because I need them to see the seriousness of this situation.
I totally respect and appreciate that she's taking a second, and I want to keep going with them because discomfort is not necessarily a sign to stop. Might just be a sign that things are starting to sink in.
Welcome back. Welcome. Okay. I'm glad we got a chance to take a break. How are you both doing?
Good.
Good.
Yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you for letting me know. I appreciate that. I was not aware.
Yeah, because it is a cost. It is an expense and a cost, and so—
I appreciate that. Thank you. Okay, let's take a look at the numbers. Tell me what you would like to do next.
Maybe take the cleaning, therapy out. It's 280.
Ask her.
Are you cool to take that out?
No.
Okay. What else?
The subscriptions are kind of irrelevant.
It's tough, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
What would you do? What would you like to do?
I personally would just be like, "Okay, then we don't have gas, or we will just take out all the food money because everything else I don't—"
You're going to take out food before—
That's—
I just want to point out what you're saying because I want you to hear it out loud. What you just said is we will take out food before we take out a cleaning service. Before we take out fitness, Spotify, pets, we'll take out food.
Yeah, I'd lower it.
You can lower it by $100. Not going to change a thing. What are you realizing? I just gave you the opportunity to cut from 113% to 60%, and you got—
Nowhere.
Nowhere. What are you realizing?
I'm having a hard time being willing to compromise on this.
Yes. Flip it. From now on, Chris, for the next two minutes, you are completely in charge. I give you carte blanche. Do whatever you want, and she will support you. Just for the next two minutes. Go ahead.
Probably the first easy ones would probably be Spotify, streaming.
Just tell me the number.
Maybe cut it in half.
All right. What else?
Maybe cleaning and therapy. Just scratch that.
Okay.
Maybe somehow cut groceries and gas in half.
No, not really. I'll cut it for 100 bucks, though.
Sure. Maybe pets.
Uh-huh. Cheaper food.
Yeah.
What else?
That's about it.
All right. So, we drop it 100.
Remember, you currently have a magic wand. You can do anything you want. You have 30 more seconds.
That's probably all I could do.
All right. So—
I can't do anything else.
That's it?
Yeah. I can't.
Not because—why?
Just can't.
Didn't you tell me at the beginning, "I want to be the man of the relationship, and the man is the one who provides," etc.?
Yeah.
In that prototypical way of thinking about life, doesn't the man, especially when somebody like me is like, "You have carte blanche, you could do anything you want. Magic wand." Aren't they just like, "Mother—these numbers," and they just chop it out? Isn't that what the man does?
Yeah, but I can't do that.
Why?
Because I can't.
Okay. The number is you went from 113 to 104%. You all are broke. That's simply unsustainable.
Yeah.
I think what's happening here is you all want me to do some magic trick for you when you all are not even willing to make the changes yourself. Is that what's happening?
I could see how it could look like that.
Scroll down. You got to take out the GLP-1 and the hair.
Okay, zero that out.
Maybe only a streaming thing to watch TV or something.
Okay, great.
Yeah, I don't really know what else to do.
We pay for dog walking services. It's like—
Oh yeah.
360 a month.
What the—350 bucks a month for a dog walker out of 635?
Only three days a week. It's crazy. Dog walking is expensive.
So, in theory, yes, that could—
That could go. Okay, goodbye dog walker. All right, you're at 89%.
It's better.
Nice.
But not enough.
What does the number need to be to not—
60.
60. Okay. I find this very peculiar phenomenon, especially in self-development, where people are obsessed with finding the perfect book, the perfect coach, the perfect program, and they almost never take a look in the mirror and ask themselves, "Am I coachable?" And that is what I am seeing here. Are they ready to change? I don't know. But it's pretty difficult for me to get them to see it.
Now, that doesn't mean they are uncoachable forever. We all have parts of our own life right now, today, that we are not coachable in, including me. But there has to be a day where, if we want to make a big change, we are coachable. So how do you become coachable? It's hard. It takes practice. And most of us have systematically shut that skill set down as we become adults because it's uncomfortable. It makes us feel bad. I don't want to do it. I'll avoid it, or if the situation comes, I will just lie.
Here's a different way to look at it. One, deep acknowledgement that I have a problem and I need to change. No minimization, no equivocation. Second, we need to make a change. Not the world, not somebody else, not us, me. I need to make a change. And then third, even the simplest specific tactic. From now on, I am going to ask my partner to lead our money conversations because I have been trying to do it my way and it's not working. That's just the basic scratching the surface of how you become more coachable, which is a huge skill to develop.
You have to remember you're at 89% with effectively no mortgage. This is not acceptable. If you had a mortgage, it's one thing. Even still, it would be unacceptable. You have no mortgage.
Correct.
So, where's the money going? Look, miscellaneous is $89. No way. But no one here said anything because both of you fundamentally don't believe you have control over your money. If I looked at these numbers, I'd go, "Give me a machete. I will cut this so aggressively. There's no way on this planet that we allow $89 in miscellaneous to happen. I'm going to fix it."
I'll go, "Okay, wow, cool. You're telling me like that? What are you going to do?" "We're going to be in control of our numbers. We're going to download it every week. We're going to have a conversation." "Oh, wow." "We're going to give ourselves only $100 a month so that this number becomes in control." And suddenly, we're down to 79%. That's better, but it's still not enough.
Insurance, that needs to be fixed. Chris, I need you to find out about this different job. I need you to find out what's going to happen. We can afford this for a while, but we cannot afford this for more than six months. What are you going to do? What's the plan? Give me a report on it. Chris, I need you to take control because I don't want to be looking over your shoulder. This isn't the way the two of you talk, right?
No.
What do you say instead?
Nothing.
Yeah. In a future like the one I was just describing, where I'm aggressive, how would that ballgame conversation have gone differently?
We probably wouldn't have even gone, to be honest with you.
Bingo. My family calls me. "Hey, we're going to the ballgame. It's a special occasion." What would I have said?
No thanks.
Yeah, I wish I could. I love you guys. Right now, finish the sentence for me.
Right now, I can't afford it.
Right now, we are prioritizing paying off our debt. Right now, we need to focus on saving money for the two of us. Hard to argue with that. "Oh, come on. Come on. We love you. It's okay."
Yeah.
That would have got you, right?
Oh, yeah.
But until you can prioritize this relationship, specifically the finances and the connection, you will simply continue sinking underwater. And isn't that what you described this financial arrangement right now? You said it's a sinking ship.
Mm-hmm.
Finally, where would expenses for a kid go?
Great question.
Nowhere. There's no money. We're not even—diapers, couldn't even afford that, much less child care and all the massive costs that come along with one kid.
What's happening right now? What are you both realizing?
It's terrifying.
Good.
Yeah, it's terrifying.
Good.
Sad.
Yes. Notice my reaction. Am I trying to assuage it? Am I trying to make you feel better right now because I don't like discomfort?
No.
No. What am I doing?
Letting me sit in it.
Yeah. You earned it.
And the only way you change is you realize how close you are to the edge of disaster. I have questions. The debt payments, when are they over?
Some are 12-month and some are 15-month. So, some should be over by December, and some should be over by March, April of '27.
Can we look? I'm just going to zero this out to see what happens.
Yeah.
Okay. Fast-forwarding, you're down to 61% when that debt is paid off.
Wow.
That's pretty amazing. That's a stark difference. But I want to paint the picture for you. At 15 months, if you were to execute this plan flawlessly, which I think is unrealistic. Would we all agree?
Yep.
It would mean that the GLP-1s would stop today. Hair extensions would stop today. Eating out, there would be no eating out for 15 months. Pet food cut in half. Does this sound realistic?
No.
Both saying no.
No.
What's the solution here?
At least do something.
We've been pretty—the debt payments are something that have been consistently being paid off, so they are on track to be paid.
Okay.
In regards to my medicine, I am almost where I will be stopping anyway, so that will be about $450 a month that will be cut out soon.
What about earning?
Yeah, I get an annual increase every year.
How much?
It varies between three to 5%.
Okay, fine. Chris, bottom line?
I would probably just have to switch my job because mine—
I didn't even put this in here, and you're probably going to freak out. I have a second job, but it doesn't bring in a lot of money. It brings in about eight to 10 grand a year.
Oh, wait. That's pretty good. What? 10 grand is not a lot? That's a lot of money.
Well, I use it to pay off all the miscellaneous things and the inquiries and the stuff you don't count. So, it kind of just sits in an account, and then I pull from it. So I don't really disperse it anywhere because I try and hold on to it until I—
Grace. Grace, listen. You're not managing money effectively, and you are not demanding enough of your partner. What are you hearing me say?
That I'm not managing my money effectively, and I'm not demanding enough of my partner.
How would you do each of those in turn? Be specific.
Well, I would start to be more direct in my conversations and in my approach and my tone and my tenacity about it.
Yeah. For example?
Hey, even if we have this $100 left over, we're not going to the game.
Correct.
We're not going to attend that. We can go and hang out at the house when they're done or whenever they get back, but we can't go to that event. Or, yeah, I know the wine walk is for your dad's birthday, but we can't afford it right now.
Great. I love that. Chris, how would you receive that?
Probably not well, to be honest with you. But seeing this, there just needs to be a change or else we're just not going to survive.
Yes, I appreciate your honesty, actually. That's pretty cool of you to just be like, "Yeah, I wouldn't take it well." Nobody does the first few times. And let me give you a little suggestion as to how to get to the point where you do receive it.
If the two of you continue individually, then if you try to make a change, you are each going to invisibly tug, like a tug-of-war, and it will be impossible to change. You will go right back to the way you were. So, "I'll just do this for three more months. It'll be fine. Oh, the dogs are so cute. We can't do that. What if they don't like the food?" Etc. "The beers? Oh, come on. It's just my dad's birthday. It's once a year." And you will resent each other. It's a horrible place to be.
What the two of you need to do is to find a vision together where you are both like, "This is what we're doing. The outside world is not relevant to us. We are the most important ones here because if we don't do this, we're going to be stuck in this forever, and then we're going to pass on to our kids for the one, two, third generation and maybe more." You have to find your why. That's why I talk about a rich life. You can get there in 15 months, maybe sooner. Thoughts?
That sounds good to me.
Yeah, that sounds great. We just got to stick to it.
How are you going to do that?
A lot of silence here. What's happening? Remember, I'm here to support you. I'm not here to tell you to do something you don't want to do. Grace, what's going through your head right now?
I'm having a hard time with the idea of cutting and thinking about the fixed cost and the thing. I think that I've tried to eliminate things as much as I could thus far without making my life miserable. Those things are all, to me, things—
That keep me okay in life. I think I'm overwhelmed.
Yeah. That's pretty self-aware to be able to call that. Chris, how about you?
Yeah, it's very eye-opening, I would say. Just not really realizing what the situation was at hand.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think it's just very eye-opening.
Yeah, and actually kind of diagnosing what's actually going on.
Yeah. What would you say you see as the diagnosis? What is going on here?
We have a lot of high costs.
Mhm.
At the price that we can't really afford.
Mhm.
Kind of bottom line.
I think it's apparent that we just avoid it and we just kind of dance around the bush all the time but never really get close to it. We just are like, "Well, it'll be fine as long as you don't touch it, aren't you?" And you just kind of hope that it'll all work itself out because seemingly it has, quote unquote, right? Like, haven't lost our house yet.
And I have my second job, and that brings in, and then that kind of sits on the side. So I'm like, "Okay, that subsidizes whatever I can't account for." And so you mentally convince yourself that you've got it handled, and you don't have it handled.
Yeah. So I think I just realized that I thought I was more involved and taking care of it than I really am. And this is what I'd hoped to get out of it, too. That it shined light on my patterns and my behaviors that I think I have under control, but clearly not. And bringing awareness to that.
I actually love realizing that I have been doing something wrong. When you're not getting the outcomes you want and you're like, "God, what's wrong? Is it me? Is there something genetic?" And then somebody comes along and says, "Let's break down exactly what you're doing. Oh, you thought you're eating out twice a week. You're eating out 20 times a week. You thought you were spending this much, but you actually did not include XYZ, ABC." And you go, "Oh, it actually all makes sense." Not that it's good, but at least it makes sense. Because once something makes sense, then you can start to make changes.
You might be wondering why I did not get to how much they're going to have in retirement or even contributing to their investments. That's intentional because we couldn't even get fixed costs below 100%. For me to talk about investments 30 years from now would be absolutely pointless. In fact, it would be an escape valve for them to focus on something else instead of the problem of their house burning right now. That's why I didn't talk about that stuff. Sometimes you got to focus on what is in front of you and nail that before you can go to the next step and the next and the next.
Based on what we've talked about today, what do you think you are going to do?
I think prioritizing getting that debt paid down. I think figuring out where we can flex cost. So, for example, maybe we flex how much the dog care is. I look into other options for his food if that's possible. Eventually taking at least the GLP-1 part of my wellness bracket off.
Increasing income would be nice. In summer, I'm off on summers, so maybe I can take on more hours at the barn. I actually do make a better hourly rate there than I do at my current job. It's just the hours aren't there. So at least in the summer, the hours are available. So maybe I could do that to bring in some more income.
Really actually trying to sit down and look at—I want to actually understand how much we spend on gas and what that really is a month and actually do the numbers. I also would like to look more into how much we really are eating out and what we actually are doing, because I think we just do it and it goes into the cloud and you think it never happened.
Chris, what about you?
I just think trying to cut down where we can. I think a big one will be me with the insurance. That'll kind of cut down costs for us. And I know we can't cut it all back. That's not totally realistic. But when me and her go home, we're definitely going to start looking at things together and trying to figure out where we can and can't and trying to come up with a plan for that.
Okay.
Set a more regular time that we talk.
What time would that be?
Like a Thursday evening or something.
Okay. And what are you gonna do in this meeting?
First, we should read your book.
Yeah.
Start with reading the book and follow the steps.
Maybe that's part of the meeting.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think we could read a chapter and then kind of reflect on it. So, what did you learn? What did you learn? Any ideas from this or any ideas from there? And just collaborate.
So you're going to come to the meeting both having read chapter one.
Yeah.
Like a book club.
It's a book club. But the two of you are going to be having these meetings probably for the rest of your life.
I hope so.
Yeah.
Great.
I would like to talk about this frequently.
I like your reactions. So let's find a way to enjoy it. We might have a little freaking snack at the beginning. We have an agenda in Money for Couples that you can use. We always start with a compliment. It always feels good when we start our money meetings. We start with a compliment. It's cheap. Costs nothing. It's amazing. You choose which book you want to start with. It's up to you, but you should read both of them.
Yep.
Okay.
You may want to create a set of core values, and one of them is we make informed decisions quickly. That's one. So if something needs to be cut out, you cut it out immediately.
Next, another skill you'll need to work on is creating a united front together against the rest of the world. You can't be united together unless each of you knows what you want. If each of you knows what you want, then you can be united as a team. That takes work. And then being united despite what the world says to you, that's a skill. So when family calls, both sides, when friends call, you two should practice and rehearse what you're going to say. And if you need help, ask your partner.
And the other thing is not avoiding the hard discussions. There are a lot of tough discussions ahead of you. I don't look at them as a bad thing. The most important things are hard.
I know that we're willing to do that, and we need to do that, but I know that we're willing to collaborate more instead of me just taking a backseat.
Yeah.
And me thinking that she's just handling it all.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think that we know what we need to do from here on out. I think so.
Oh, I like that.
Yeah.
Earning more is the natural next step. You both are young, you have time, but I would not wait. Increasing your income will dramatically affect affordability for the two of you.
Mhm.
Like the summer opportunity you mentioned, to me, that is an absolute no-brainer. It's a yes. There's no discussion about it.
Thought about being a Starbucks barista.
Why not?
Love coffee.
Why not?
Got great benefits.
There you go.
Thought about it. Might as well go do it.
It's time to start taking the decisions again. We make informed decisions quickly because we have a bigger vision than the two of us are going to be comfortable. We talked about what happens if you make no changes. That's not an option.
Yeah. Not an option.
You have to make changes, big changes, and they have to happen fast. Are you on board?
Yep.
On board.
Okay. I think it's going to be really hard for Chris and Grace to make the changes that we discussed today. But let's remember that before today, they had never had a single substantive conversation about money. Let's also remember that Chris does not like to be uncomfortable, and being on this show was the definition of uncomfortable for him. So they've already taken a big step.
Will they do it? Probably not until their backs are against the wall. Most people do not make self-development changes unless they have to. I don't want them to have one or two kids and suddenly realize next month we can't afford diapers. I don't want that. But there's only so much I can say or even do until they realize it for themselves.
So I want to thank Chris and Grace for coming on this show. It was not easy. This is a major opportunity for you to change your entire dynamic. I really hope you do it. And now, let's take a look at the follow-ups.
This is our reflection from our time with Ramit. Our biggest surprise from the session, mine was probably related to our different childhood experiences with money and how our parents talked about money or lack of conversation around money, and how that has translated into our adulthood and how we show up for ourselves and in our relationships in relation to money.
And my biggest surprise was how close our income is to our neighbors and the people locally here in our town.
And our biggest takeaway, my biggest takeaway probably ties into my biggest surprise. So realizing those patterns and how I want to take those patterns, and I know my husband wants to take those patterns, and change those for future children and kind of alter those in a more positive way. So having more positive conversations around money and open conversations and being more proactive and changing the patterns that we noticed about our childhood and how we got here.
And my biggest takeaway is knowing that we need to have more in-depth conversations around our rich life and how we will get there someday.
And our changes that we would like to make. I think we both agree that we are wanting to, one, read the book, but two, have more weekly set meetings on Thursdays at 6 about our finances and moving forward in a positive direction. Thank you.
If you want to know the exact month and year that you will have $100,000 in your investment portfolio, sign up for my new program, Road to 100K. I'll help you hit that number fast.
Article published · Updated