Choosing the Pain You Didn't Choose: Matthew Hussey on Heartbreak and the Myth of "Right Person, Wrong Time"
Matthew Hussey
Jay Shetty opens the conversation by describing a breakup as a path that has to be walked. There is no way to speed it up and no deadline to set, such as deciding to be over it in three months. It is simply uncomfortable, a matter of sitting in discomfort. Shetty's question is what to do while sitting there. Matthew Hussey answers with a personal memory, a reframing tool built around a psychology experiment, and two arguments meant to loosen the hold a lost relationship can have: that anyone who doesn't choose you cannot be for you, and that "the right person at the wrong time" does not exist.
The Depths of Heartbreak
Hussey starts by noting that heartbreak has phases. When heartbreak is genuine and deep, there is a phase where a person questions their own existence. He recalls having his own heart broken and sitting on the doorstep of his house with a friend. With tears in his eyes, he told the friend that he felt he wasn't good enough. As he describes it, his deep belief at the time was that if he had been good enough, he would have been able to make the relationship work.
He calls that a horrible place to be and says it calls for self-compassion, because the experience is "brutally difficult." In that phase, he says, people need love, and they should celebrate small things: getting through another day, managing to get out of bed. He describes simply getting out of bed during that period as "a heroic act" for him.
Pain as a Source of New "Gears"
Hussey then describes a belief he holds about painful moments: they give us "gears" we wouldn't otherwise have had. He says the worst pain of his life gave him access to gears he didn't know he had. He acknowledges that nobody wants to hear this while they are in the middle of it, but he insists those gears turn out to be valuable.
To support this, he points out that people choose suffering all the time. Going to the gym, writing a book, making a podcast, or climbing a mountain are all chosen forms of pain, taken on because people know there are benefits to be had. Then he makes a stronger claim about his own experience. The benefit he got from pain he didn't choose has been no less valuable than the benefit from pain he did choose. He goes further and says the most valuable pain he has ever had was pain he didn't choose.
From there he offers an image: treat the worst moments of your life as "a menu of pain." Beside each item on the menu are the specific benefits that can only come from that kind of pain. Once you see it that way, he suggests, you can imagine choosing that pain retroactively.
The Rat A and Rat B Experiment
Hussey explains why he thinks retroactive choosing matters by recounting an experiment a psychologist told him about. He is passing on what he was told, not presenting his own research.
In the experiment, Rat A was on a wheel and could run whenever it wanted. Rat B was on a separate wheel connected to Rat A's, so whenever Rat A chose to run, Rat B had to run too. Both rats did the same amount of exercise. According to the account Hussey heard, at the end Rat A showed all the positive markers of exercise, while Rat B showed all the negative markers of stress. The only difference was that Rat A chose to run and Rat B didn't.
Hussey finds this profound. Nobody would choose to be heartbroken; he calls it "the worst," a terrible pain. But what if, inside that pain, you recognized something you could gain that you couldn't get any other way? Looking at the menu, this item might have remarkable benefits. He lists what those could be: who you will have to become to get through it, what you will have to learn, and how you will have to find comfort. He says even getting through a weekend alone during a breakup is "this unbelievable feat," along with learning to be comfortable in your own company and to sit with the pain.
If you decide those benefits are powerful enough that you would choose the pain to get them, he says, you turn yourself from Rat B into Rat A. At that point you are no longer a victim of the pain but "the beneficiary of these exquisite gifts that you could only get this way." Hussey presents this as one tool he has personally used to get through some of the worst pain of his life. He does not claim it is a complete solution.
"Anyone Who Doesn't Choose You Cannot Be for You"
Moving to what he calls the psychological level of heartbreak, Hussey shares a principle he often reminds people of: anyone who doesn't choose you cannot be for you.
His reasoning starts from what he considers the core of a relationship. Someone sees you, accepts you, and wants what they see, which he calls the most beautiful part of any relationship. If a person doesn't see you, accept you, and want you, the relationship is missing that core. In his view it has failed "the fundamental test of what makes a relationship worth having" and shouldn't even be desirable anymore.
He draws a distinction here. He is not talking about someone taken from us by life. He is talking about someone who is still alive somewhere, walking around, and choosing not to be with us. That situation, he argues, should lose its romance.
The "Right Person, Wrong Time" Story
Hussey then turns to what he calls another game people play: building alternative scenarios. If it had been a different time in life, if they had been a bit older, they would have been ready to commit. If they hadn't been so busy with work, they would have had room to give to the relationship. These scenarios, he says, force us into the "sad love song" of right person, wrong time.
He calls this a pernicious and dangerous story because it takes something that belongs to science fiction and brings it into our reality. His example is someone missing an ex from five years ago. That person is different now in many ways, and so are you. If you got together now, you would be two different people getting together. As he puts it, "You miss a ghost," and the person no longer exists the way you think they do.
He applies the same logic to the thought that "if only we had met five years from now, it would have worked." He asks: in what parallel universe? It didn't happen in this universe. Wishing for it means wishing for a world where all the dominoes fell differently. Getting out of that mindset matters, he says, because it buys you into a science fiction story that doesn't exist.
Hussey's Three Criteria for the Right Person
Hussey states plainly that he doesn't believe in the right person at the wrong time. In his definition, the right person has to meet three conditions:
- they are right in their personality,
- they are ready, and
- their life is compatible with yours.
If any one of those is missing, he says, it is not the right person. Having a great time together, liking who they are, great conversation, and great intimacy are not enough to make someone right.
He closes the discussion by saying we have to stop telling ourselves that someone who broke up with us, or where the timing was bad, is the right person for us. In his words, that is "just a story. It is not reality." His conclusion: "The right person is the person it happens with."
Let's talk a bit about breakups because it seems to be a path that you have to walk and have to take, and there's no real acceleration. As you said, there's not like, "I'm going to get over this breakup in three months," right? There's no timeline or deadline that you can set on it, but it's just uncomfortable, and it's almost like sitting in discomfort. What do we do when we're sitting in that discomfort?
Well, when you're in the depths of it, because there's different phases, right? There's certainly a phase of any heartbreak, when it's genuine deep heartbreak, where you are just questioning your existence. I remember having my own heart broken and sitting on the doorstep of my house with a friend of mine, and just with tears in my eyes saying to him, "I just feel like I'm not good enough." That was my deep sense, was that I am not good enough, and if I was good enough, I would have been able to make this work.
And that's a horrible place to be. We have to have compassion for ourselves in those times because it's brutally difficult. It's a time where we just need love, and we need to celebrate the fact that we got through another day and that I managed to get out of bed today. It was a heroic act for me to just get out of bed.
We then have to—I always think that all of these moments give us gears that we wouldn't have had otherwise. And the worst pain of my life has given me access to gears that I didn't know I had. And as much as no one wants to hear it when they're in it, those gears turn out to be really valuable. They really do.
We all choose suffering in our lives. We choose to go to the gym. That's choosing suffering. We choose to write a book. That's choosing a form of suffering. We choose to make a podcast, or we choose to climb a literal mountain. We choose pain in our lives regularly because we know that there are benefits to be had. I have to argue that the benefit I have gotten from the pain that I didn't choose has been no less valuable than the benefit I've gotten from the pain I did choose. In fact, actually, I think the most valuable pain I've ever had is the pain I didn't choose.
And when you realize that, you can almost, I think, look at some of the worst moments of your life as a menu of pain. And beside the item on the menu is the very specific, unique benefits that can only come from this kind of pain. And you can imagine yourself retroactively choosing that pain, which is a very valuable thing to do.
I was told by a psychologist about an experiment on rats where one rat was on a wheel and was just given free rein to just run whenever it wanted to run. There was another rat. This was rat A. Rat B was connected to that wheel. He was on another wheel that was connected to rat A's wheel. And any time rat A chose to run, rat B had to run. Right? So both doing the same amount of exercising, but at the end of the experiment, rat A shows all the positive markers of exercise, and rat B shows all the negative markers of stress.
Oh wow.
Same amount of exercise. What's the difference? Well, rat A chose to run. Rat B didn't. And there's something profound about that to me because if we can take a situation that we didn't choose—who would choose to be heartbroken, right? It's the worst. It's a terrible pain. But what if in that pain you did realize there is something here that I'm going to gain from this experience that I couldn't have any other way?
That if I look on that menu of pain, this one has some really good benefits. This one has some really amazing stuff. Who I'm going to have to become to get through this, what I'm going to have to learn, the way I'm going to have to get comfort even just to get through a weekend right now on my own is going to be this unbelievable feat. And to get comfortable in my own company and to sit in this pain, there are such profound benefits from that. What if I did actually look at those benefits and say they're so powerful that I'm going to choose this pain so that I can experience those benefits?
And so you turn yourself from rat B to rat A. And all of a sudden you're not a victim of that pain anymore. You're the beneficiary of these exquisite gifts that you could only get this way. And that's one tool I've used to get through some of the worst, worst pain of my life.
And then on a psychological level with heartbreak, what I always remind people is that anyone who doesn't choose you cannot be for you. If they don't see you—what is a relationship? It's someone sees you, they accept you, and they want that. That's the most beautiful part of a relationship. So if someone doesn't see you and accept you and want what they see, then this relationship is missing the most beautiful part of any relationship. It shouldn't be desirable at that stage because it has failed the fundamental test of what makes a relationship worth having.
We're not talking about a person who, in at least the case I feel we're talking about, the person who was taken from us by life. We're talking about a person who's just walking around somewhere, still existing on the planet, but choosing not to be with us. That should lose its romance to us.
And that's the other game we play: if it was a different time in life, if they were a bit older, they would have been ready to commit. If they had been in a different phase where they weren't so busy with their work, they might have had the space to really give to this relationship, but they said their work isn't allowing them to. We go through all these scenarios where it forces us into this sad love song of right person, wrong time. And that's a really pernicious story. That's a very dangerous story because it takes what belongs in the realm of science fiction and brings it into our reality.
When we're thinking about an ex from five years ago and we're like, "I miss them." I don't know what you're like. You don't even know who they are anymore. That was five years ago. They're a different person now in many ways. You're a different person now in many ways. If you got together now, you'd be getting together as different people. You miss a ghost. The person doesn't exist anymore in the way that you think they do.
And when you're saying, "Oh, if only we met five years from now, it would have worked." In what parallel universe? This is science fiction. It didn't happen in this universe. It is wishing for a parallel universe where everything, all the dominoes, unfolded in a different way. It's not this universe. So we have to get out of this mindset because it gets us bought into a science fiction story that doesn't really exist.
I don't believe in the right person at the wrong time. The right person is right in their personality. They're ready, and their life is compatible with yours. If you're missing one of those three things, then it's not the right person. The right person has to be more than someone who you have a great time with, and you like who they are, and have great conversation and great intimacy. That's not the only criteria for someone who's right.
So we have to stop telling ourselves the story that someone who broke up with us, or it was bad timing or whatever, is the right person for us. That is just a story. It is not reality. The right person is the person it happens with.
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