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"We Make $150K… So Why Are We Broke?": Ramit Sethi Pushes a Couple With ADHD and $93,500 of Debt Toward Their Real Numbers

I Will Teach You To Be Rich · ▶ 1:28:32 · 32 min read
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Overview

Lauren (34) and Mick (36) have been married for seven years and have two sons, ages five and two. Their household earns about $150,000 a year gross. They wrote to Ramit Sethi's I Will Teach You To Be Rich podcast saying they have "so much debt" and struggle with their spending, and that they would like a third child and a move to a three-bedroom apartment, condo, or house. Sethi's question is how a couple that says it has a spending problem can plan a housing upgrade in the same breath. His position, stated before the conversation starts and repeated throughout, is that dreaming about a richer life is good, but at some point a dream has to become a plan or it stays "a random fantasy." The conversation does not end in agreement, and the couple's follow-up videos push back on much of what he said.

32 min read

The Numbers Before the Conversation

Before meeting them, Sethi reviews their Conscious Spending Plan (CSP), his budgeting framework. It shows $20,000 in assets, $89,000 in investments, $5,000 in savings, and $93,500 in debt, for a net worth of $20,500. Their combined gross monthly income is $12,470. What stops him is the fixed-cost line: 89% of their take-home pay goes to fixed costs. "Why are we talking about a new house right now?" he says, adding that some people "just need to be told no." He then says he still has to work through the process and wants to understand how the fixed costs got to 89%, whether it has always been this way, and how they could move somewhere bigger when they already spend more than they make each month.

When the couple read the numbers aloud, their reactions were milder. Lauren said the debt is high, but she is "kind of impressed" they have a positive net worth at all. Mick said he had joked about the same thing. They acknowledged the positive number exists only because of their 401(k)s. Lauren has a 401(k) through work. Mick has an old 401(k) from a previous employer that he can no longer contribute to. After reading Sethi's book, Lauren urged him to convert it to a Roth IRA, which he did. She also tried to get him to contribute $20 a month, and he eventually set that up.

What They Wanted and How ADHD Shows Up

Lauren said money makes her "really stressed out," especially when she has to think too hard to make things work. As "the keeper of the calendar," she feels most of the responsibility for paying bills on time falls on her, and she doesn't feel she can keep up. Both of them made poor decisions in their early twenties, Lauren said, especially with credit cards, and they believe they are now on a better course. But they live in an expensive city, and she wishes there were more room for a third child or a bigger place. From the conversation, Lauren wanted "a game plan… something that we can stick to that's not hard." Mick wanted confidence that what they had already done was on the right track. He described the last few years as "two steps forward and one step back."

Both of them have ADHD. They said they are being treated, including with medication, and that they need "dopamine hits" to get through because they are both "really burnt out." So sometimes, when they want something badly enough, they buy it. Lauren described a pattern of getting about 80% of the way through a plan and then stalling. She said she hyperfocused on Sethi's book and podcast for about six months, opened accounts, and then gave up when she got to figuring out savings and investments.

Mick described the administrative side. Lauren keeps a good calendar, he doesn't. The day before the recording, she told him their electric bill was past due, and he hadn't known. He tries to automate payments, but he called automation "a double-edged sword": autopays fail when the right account doesn't have enough money, or when a card expires and he forgets to update it. Many of their subscriptions still charge his personal card instead of the shared account. He knows moving them sounds easy, but he said that for people with ADHD, "sometimes just doing something is not just doing something."

Sethi's response set up the rest of the episode. He said he is not an ADHD expert, but he knows it shows up in money a lot, and he was glad they were getting help. Still, he said, "I don't need to fully understand how ADHD works with money, but I need you to find a solution to these problems." Even if it is harder for them than for others, they have to use every resource they have, because they cannot go through life without solving this, especially with kids.

The Pillow, Legoland, and the Birthday Party

The impulse purchases came up quickly. That morning, Lauren took their five-year-old to Target to deal with a broken toy. He pointed out a K-pop Demon Hunters pillow, and she thought, "All right, I need this." Sethi assumed she had bought it for her son. She clarified it was for herself.

When Sethi asked about a recent disagreement, Mick brought up their sons' birthdays, which fall in the same week. They took a Legoland trip. Lauren wanted to stay at the Legoland hotel and "do the whole nine yards." Mick asked about a cheaper hotel, and they settled on the less expensive option. They then made "a lot of impulse buys at Legoland." Lauren called Lego "our whole personality now," and Mick called it their latest hyperfixation.

For the party, Lauren chose a venue at $15 per child that saved her the legwork, and she asked guests for Legoland gift cards instead of presents. She described it as crowdsourcing extra spending money. It brought in close to $200. The trip itself was harder to total. They gave figures of about $700 for two nights at the hotel and $110 per person in admission, and they estimated the total at about $1,500, possibly more. Sethi was surprised it ran for two days. They had the money only because Mick had just received an unexpected bonus. Without it, they said, they would be struggling more.

Roles and a Marriage With Separate Finances

Mick called himself "the person that executes." Lauren called herself the planner. Sethi pointed out that if Lauren has to tell Mick when a bill is overdue, she is also the reminder. Lauren said she struggles with the big picture but tries to track which bills are due on the 1st and which on the 15th. She said "somebody" has been slow to move bills from his personal account to the shared one.

The couple still hasn't fully merged their finances. The first time they made a CSP together, a few years into the marriage, neither had ever seen what the other owed. Lauren had about $20,000 in credit card debt and Mick about $18,000. They had a shared account for rent and some bills, but they never sat down to review everything together. Lauren thought Mick had been embarrassed. Mick said he probably was, and that he would have felt better knowing they were "in the same boat."

Sethi asked why Lauren had to "convince" Mick to set up a $50-a-month Roth contribution. Mick called himself stubborn and said that if something isn't in front of him and he says "I'll do it later," he doesn't do it later. Lauren couldn't do it for him because she doesn't have the login. Mick added that they hadn't really thought about the questions Sethi was raising.

"Do You Respect Money?"

Sethi asked whether money is important in their relationship. Mick said it probably isn't, noting that when Lauren met him he didn't have a job and was broke. Sethi then asked whether they respect money. He compared it to food: people who respect food think about what they eat, choose ingredients, talk about meals, and prepare them with their kids. They are methodical, thoughtful, and planful about it. Lauren answered: "No, I don't think we do. I think it's something that we only think about when we need to." Mick agreed.

In commentary, Sethi said he believes Lauren and Mick have an external locus of control: they feel life happens to them and their job is to react. He said this is common among people who grew up with little control over their environment, where every bit of savings was wiped out by a broken boot or a flat tire. He thinks this is "virtually impossible" to change in one conversation. It can change with practice, he said, starting with something like a $20 monthly automatic savings plan that shows $200 after ten months. But he considers real change unlikely because it is very hard.

Job Loss and the Spending Rebound

Lauren said they had been motivated to clear their debt and think about retirement until Mick was laid off a couple of years ago. He was out of work for about a year. Since then, she said, they have been on an "emotional roller coaster," dealing with the trauma of the layoff and the toll of a scarcity mindset. Their money eventually ran out. When Mick found a new job, "we can finally spend money again and then we went a little too crazy." Asked how much they overspent, Lauren said she couldn't quantify it.

Mick described the rebound as a return of "breathing room": more restaurant meals, toys they had denied the kids, a video game console or a new Kindle for themselves. They felt they had deprived themselves, and then the opposite happened. Because the layoff interrupted their progress right as they were getting on track, what they had learned from Sethi's book became a low priority while they tried to survive.

Sethi said in commentary that he noticed they have a reason for every behavior. He was willing to discuss the cost of living or a year without work, he said, but he would also be clear about what is outside his expertise, and ADHD is one of those things.

Why 89% Fixed Costs Changes Everything

Back to the CSP. Mick read out 89% and said it means most of their money goes to bills. Sethi called it "the ballgame." Almost every dollar of take-home pay is spoken for before savings or fun. Savings were listed at 3%, about $300 a month, yet they had only $5,000 saved, which Lauren said came from Mick's bonus. They explained that the $300 is supposed to go toward a car payment, and that they end up pulling money out of savings to pay bills. Investments were at zero. Guilt-free spending showed 8%, or $713, and everyone agreed they actually spend more than that.

Sethi asked what it means that they spend more than the CSP says they have. Mick said it just increases their debt. He framed their problem as largely administrative: things aren't set up, and without visibility they make poor choices. Sethi called that "partially true."

Breaking Down the $93,500

The debt has three parts. The first is a Ford Mustang Mach-E, bought for about $35,000 with about $28,000–$30,000 left on the loan. They started at roughly 9% interest and refinanced to about 6%. The second is a leased Honda CR-V. They leased it because it was new and had a lower monthly payment. The third is a $35,000 consolidation loan taken out in January at about 8%, used to pay off credit cards charging about 26%. Lauren said she wanted to "completely shut down any credit spending." They said they are no longer using credit cards, except that they recently charged the Legoland hotel.

Lauren said the interest rates stood out to her after reading Sethi's book, and the consolidation was meant to save on interest. Sethi asked about the decisions that created the debt. Lauren said much of it came from decisions they made when they were younger. Sethi then asked which poor decisions they still make today. Their answer: "Not having a plan and spending it on things that we probably don't necessarily need."

Sethi said this is essentially what they did before, except the debt is now consolidated. They are still spending more than they have on discretionary and fixed costs, with no plan. Consolidation "is just buying you time," he said. Even if they pay it off, they will go back into debt unless they fundamentally change their relationship with money and with each other. Lauren replied that they have been doing much better about not using credit cards.

In commentary, Sethi described the pattern he sees: every suggestion is met with over-explanation of how they got here and how far they have come. He said he could listen to those stories for five days and they would get nowhere, and that unconsciously they bring up old stories so they don't have to change. What interests him is whether they acknowledge where they are now and what it will take to move forward.

Money as Something Abstract

Mick said the problem might be that they don't respect money and don't talk about it, not just with each other but with anyone. Sethi said he didn't think Mick thinks about money at all, and Mick agreed. Lauren summed it up: "We're not mindful with money."

Sethi described how their money talk sounds to him: something abstract, to "break in case" they need it or even just want it. Legoland happens regardless of the numbers, and if it adds to debt, "it's fine." That, he said, feels very detached. A plan, by contrast, is "deeply real and local." It shapes what you eat, where you go, and what kind of birthday party you throw. Asked how living with such a plan would feel, Mick said it would eventually feel good, and Lauren added that at first it would feel scary and uncomfortable. Sethi said he wanted to make their money simpler, noting that his own finances are simpler than theirs, which "should not be the case."

How They Grew Up With Money

Mick said he learned little about money growing up. His father's parents were fairly well off and gave his father money but didn't teach him about it. His father is now broke. His father also refused to spend on almost anything, yet was a gambler; Mick confirmed it was a real addiction and said he is fortunate not to have inherited it. His mother was a stay-at-home mom who never entered the workforce, and he thinks she doesn't always understand what earning money takes. His parents didn't share information about money with each other. As a teenager, when bills moved online, Mick was the one setting up autopay and bill pay for them, without knowing where the money came from. In his early twenties, with no student debt, he discovered credit cards: "Oh, I want an Xbox. Like, yeah, let's go buy it." He didn't understand interest, minimum payments, credit scores, savings accounts, or 401(k)s, and no one explained them. He understands them now and wishes he had learned sooner.

Lauren's mother has run her own business from home for more than 40 years and often bought courses and coaching. Her reasoning was, "I'll put it on a credit card and then I'll go make the money to pay off the credit card." Lauren's father handled the bills, and her mother didn't even know how to pay them. When her father inherited money and wanted to buy a house, they went to open houses, but her mother kept saying no, and the money went to other things like trips. Her parents later divorced and declared bankruptcy after running up more than $140,000 in credit card debt. Because her unemployed father's information went on her FAFSA, Lauren received grants that covered all of college and graduated without loans. As a teenager, she said, she saw herself as "a great manifestor of money" who always figured something out. Asked what she took from all this, she said money lets you enjoy life, "but it's not something you should ever really have to think about." Sethi called that insightful. Despite watching her parents' experience, she still went into credit card debt, and when she couldn't pay more than the minimum, she moved balances from card to card to get zero-interest periods, so the debt stayed put instead of shrinking.

In commentary, Sethi said Lauren tries to game the system but ultimately games herself. Legoland and the FAFSA story, he said, together suggest she looks for ways out of any constraint. A turnaround plan requires full buy-in: "this is my plan. It is, by definition, constraining me and I love it." Until she has a powerful vision for what she and Mick want, he believes they will keep looking for ways around a plan.

Preschool, Two Cars, and Staying Behind

Sethi asked about the $1,100 a month for cars and gas. Mick said they need both cars: he has a long commute, and Lauren works hybrid, in the office one day a week, and needs to pick up the boys. The CSP had no childcare line because a grandmother lives half a block away and helps a lot, and Lauren works from home. But preschool is coming, a co-op costing about $480 a month. Asked where that money will come from, Lauren's reaction, in Sethi's words, was "we don't know." Mick said part of it would come from lower debt payments, and otherwise, "we'll figure it out."

Sethi said they have been "behind the eight ball" for about 15 years, reacting to money even when a cost like preschool is months away and certain. He asked what reason could be powerful enough for them to change. Mick said their kids: if he doesn't set an example, they will end up in the same situation. They agreed the current example is that you don't talk about money, you react to it, and that you don't need to worry because you can do anything you want.

Mick said he never wants to tell his kids "we can't afford that." Sethi objected to the phrase itself. He said kids internalize it without understanding "afford," and he described guests who come on the show with $4 million and still feel they can't afford things. But he said he loves saying no to kids. Mick said they do say no but don't stick to it, and connected this to their broader problem: they don't hold boundaries with themselves, so how would their kids learn to? Sethi called this "the crux of today": if you can't hold boundaries with yourself, you can't hold them with your partner, and if a couple can't hold them together, they can't hold them with their kids.

Watching the Percentages Move

Sethi then changed the CSP live. The debt payment of $980 is set to drop by about $300 to $680, bringing fixed costs to 86%. Lauren said this is where they get stuck: they already switched phone providers to save $100 a month, their car payments are fixed, and they drive an electric car. Sethi said 86% is still far too high and needs to be 60% or lower. Adding the $480 preschool pushed fixed costs to 92%. He pointed out that in their heads, they would tell themselves they are doing well because they cut the phone bill, but "that story is at odds with reality."

In commentary, he said he wasn't sure they live in any kind of financial reality, partly because they haven't felt real consequences. Consolidation bought time, and neither the power nor the cable has been shut off. He used a deliberately absurd metaphor: someone rubs butter on their feet every morning, slips into a tarantula's web, asks how it happened, and does the same thing the next day. People rarely address the root behaviors that got them into debt, he said, and without that they are likely to end up back there.

The Apartment: Rent Control, Roaches, and Mold

When Sethi asked where the third child and the three-bedroom appear on the CSP, Mick said nowhere, and that there is no feasible way. Lauren said they still want it. Their current two-bedroom is rent-controlled, in the location they want, and fairly large. But for months they have had a serious cockroach infestation shared with the downstairs neighbors. Exterminators have come twice, the landlord has sealed cracks, and they emptied their kitchen and both bathrooms. Lauren said it's unhealthy and she's "over it." There is also a leak every time it rains, which has gone on for three years, and now mold is growing. Sethi, who usually pushes people to lower fixed costs, said staying with two kids amid mold and roaches seemed "crazy" and asked why they weren't being decisive.

They said they feel stuck. Moving would mean going far away, and they don't want to leave their son's school or the grandmother nearby, who won't move and lives with Mick's or Lauren's brother. Sethi told them to decide either way and stop saying "we want this, but we can't because of that." Mick said he would stay. Lauren said she needed more time, first mentioning two years and then agreeing to "next year if we can make it work." Mick pointed out they don't even have enough savings to move.

Sethi then modeled a move. Mick estimated $4,200 for an apartment; Lauren wanted a house, about $4,500 for a townhouse in their area. At $4,500, fixed costs rose to 112%. Sethi said it is impossible for them to increase housing costs in the next two years. "You are almost homeless. I don't know if you realize that," he said, adding that the luxury they want "is not available to you anymore. You have spent too much money." Lauren said she doesn't think about such things because they seem impossible. Sethi responded that ignoring them just means waiting for life to force a decision.

A Crack in the Team Story, and a Reframe

Lauren said she had realized something during the conversation: they present themselves as a unified team, but there are "a lot of kinks in the communication." They don't take time to talk about money or plan, their spending has been reactive, which she links to the trauma of Mick's layoff and "one thing after another," and they lack confidence. "I don't believe that if I set a plan that I would be able to actually carry it through," she said. She makes a plan, gets excited, and then something happens and she drops it.

Sethi offered a reframe of the same facts: we were deeply in debt and have come a long way, which deserves celebrating, but to get where we want to go we need to level up how we think, talk, act, and feel about money. Instead of "one thing after another," the idea becomes that life will always throw things at us and we will be strong enough to handle each one. Asked what they noticed, the couple said it used all positive language, acknowledged that they are working on it, and was about moving forward rather than staying stagnant.

Can They Earn More?

Mick said he thinks Lauren in particular could earn much more, and that he has stopped pushing because she hasn't acted. Lauren's title is special projects manager, and her boss calls her the office's "Swiss Army knife." She does web development, accounting, and event planning, and the company is paying for her project management certification. She has worked there for 16 years, since college, and she is hourly. She gets about 2% raises a year, plus one raise of about $6,000 after she asked for it. The company matches her 401(k) up to 4%. She said her boss has encouraged her to look for higher-paying work, but she finds working with nonprofits fulfilling, sets her own schedule, and can get overtime when she asks. She believes she could "easily" earn six figures with her skills, while adding she isn't sure about the current job market, and she said leaving her only job is scary. Sethi said they both seemed very comfortable.

Lauren said she is pursuing more overtime at events, including a conference the next week with 12-hour days, and could realistically earn about $5,000 more a year without burning out. Sethi estimated that at about $350 a month. With the house scenario, it lowered fixed costs from about 111% to 108%.

Mick is director of fundraising at a base salary of about $80,000, with up to $20,000 in potential bonuses. He received about $5,000. He said that as a fundraiser he has to justify his own role by bringing in money, so he won't feel comfortable asking for a raise until he produces results, and he is "100%" sure a request now would be refused. He said it would probably be two or three years before he tried, and that he hadn't thought about it because it seemed impossible. When Lauren asked how she could help him earn the full bonus, he said he didn't know that she could. Sethi concluded, "So, it's not happening." Mick did acknowledge they may not be ambitious enough in their careers, and noted he can't relocate because his job isn't remote.

Cutting, Fear, and "Nibbling Around the Edges"

Returning to current rent brought fixed costs to 88%. Sethi then cut the 15% miscellaneous category, about $1,000 a month, to $250, saying a couple in their situation shouldn't spend $1,000 on miscellaneous. That brought fixed costs to 79%. When he asked how bold they wanted to be, he said he didn't sense they wanted to be aggressive. Lauren said she was "so scared" of their lifestyle changing considerably. She does the grocery shopping and meal planning, and at home all day with their two-year-old, convenience foods are essential "for my mental health" because she can barely think about what to make for lunch.

Sethi said he was about to say something uncomfortable. He said he can't fully appreciate how hard it is to be home with a two-year-old, but the money they have now isn't working: "You will end up without a house. You will end up without enough money in the bank. It will be gone." Next to the family's financial health, he said, the need for prepared food is "irrelevant," and he stressed he wasn't calling her a bad person, only asking her to find a solution. Mick said the cuts on screen were reasonable, but there aren't many cheaper places nearby. Sethi asked what happens if they only nibble around the edges. His answer: they slowly drain savings, tap investments, go back into debt, and eventually "it gets dangerous."

In commentary, Sethi called this a frustrating conversation. He sees many ways out, but said he can't make them see it, and if they can't see it, they can't do it. Listing seven steps would go "right over their heads," so he was deliberately going slow and "sitting in the frustration," hoping they would reach the conclusion themselves. The problem, he said, is that they weren't willing to take an honest look at where they are. "I am not going to save you. You two will save you or you will sink."

A $200,000 Household and Sethi's Options

Asked what they would do with more money, Mick named two things: a bigger apartment and more savings. Sethi said an extra $2,000 a month couldn't cover both. He said there is no clear vision, just a vague sense that things are bad and "random jabs": you should earn more, no, you should. If they understood the severity and had a path, they would agree that "one way or another, we as a household need to make $200,000 a year." Mick suggested setting a goal with a timeline. Sethi said the timeline is now: increase household income and push expenses lower, while their life is set up for costs to keep rising, with preschool and difficulty saying no to the kids. Staying where they live, he said, means doing "50 things right."

He laid out the options as he saw them. One or both could get a raise or change jobs. An extra $30,000–$40,000 combined would help "a lot." Savings need to grow from $5,000 to about $42,000, and he wouldn't consider moving until they had about a year's worth, roughly $70,000. In their position, living in a rent-controlled place in a neighborhood they like, he would stay, press the landlord harder, and document the roaches and mold. The alternative is a much cheaper place, which he said probably means leaving LA. Either way, he said, a three-bedroom house is off the table "for the next 5 to 10 years." He described the mood of the conversation as "a bit of a sitcom environment" with a lot of jokes, and said "it's not that funny, actually."

Lauren proposed next steps: set a time to finish combining their accounts so both have full visibility, build a new CSP with lower expenses, and decide guardrails in advance because "sometimes we forget where the line is." Sethi said he loved guardrails, clear lines that make something a yes or a no without deciding in the moment. Both would ask for raises and look elsewhere if they didn't get them. Sethi said household income has to rise until fixed costs are at or below 60%, and that "easy" moves on food, possibly one car, and more need to be made decisively. Lauren said even preschool is hard to cut because the co-op is already the cheapest option. Sethi said they have structurally locked themselves into high fixed costs. Even with low rent, everything around them is expensive, so if they choose to stay, they have to earn more, even if that means working weekends and being tired.

Lauren asked what comes after they get out of this. Sethi said for parents of two, the first priority is stability, meaning a large savings account built in stages of $10,000, $25,000, then $70,000, to handle medical bills and surprises. They don't need $70,000 right away, he said, but they need a plan with a date for reaching a 12-month emergency fund. Everything else comes later.

Speaking to viewers, Sethi said the podcast isn't about "math magic" and dramatic transformations. Sometimes couples make big progress and sometimes none, and he suggested judging an episode by what you learned, not by how much progress the couple made or how much you liked them. He said Lauren and Mick are in a serious situation that will require big changes, made quickly.

The Follow-Ups: Weekly Talks and Clear Disagreement

About a week later, Lauren reported that they had started weekly conversations about upcoming bills and savings goals. Through those conversations, she said, they realized the numbers used on the podcast weren't entirely accurate. They don't consider the 15% miscellaneous figure real, and after reviewing subscriptions, they cut several and found they had been overestimating, lowering that category by about $200 a month. She also said the conversation "lacked a lot of context," and that they don't agree with Sethi's solutions and don't think they're realistic for their situation. They felt he didn't give enough weight to their ADHD diagnoses and were disappointed by what she called his lack of homework on ADHD, given how many millennials it affects and that they are his target audience. They are building their own plan, and her main takeaway is to keep talking about money and not treat it as taboo.

Mick thanked Sethi and called the experience eye-opening but more intense than he expected. The biggest positive, he said, is that they now make consistent time to talk about finances. After reviewing the details, they were pleasantly surprised to find their fixed costs were lower than they had estimated both before and during the show, and they cut some things they didn't need and didn't know they were paying for. He wished the ADHD discussion had gone deeper, since people with ADHD or other forms of neurodivergence have distinctive spending patterns, and he felt that part was "a little bit glossed over and dismissed." He also felt topics around parenthood and pets weren't portrayed realistically. He said moving to another neighborhood or earning more money would be great but aren't entirely realistic for them. Instead, they set their own goals, doubled down on what was working, and cut spending they hadn't noticed.

Sethi's Response

Sethi thanked them for the follow-ups and the changes they had made, and called it courageous to come on the show. He agreed they have a point: with ADHD, things others take for granted are much harder, and many people look down on them with "why don't you just do this?" He said he was surprised by some of the feedback. He reiterated that he isn't an expert in ADHD diagnosis and never will be, but he acknowledges it affects how people manage money, which is why he invited Dr. Christine Hargrove to speak about ADHD and money in his coaching program. His conclusion: managing their ADHD is their responsibility, not his. Some people have traits that make money, health, or family connection harder, he said, and those traits must be acknowledged, but pointing to ADHD as the reason they can't manage money "just doesn't fly with me." Help may come from doctors, coaches, or other resources, and he hopes they adapt what they learned on the show to their own situation. He closed by saying he wants to see them make big changes, because the situation is serious, and that those changes have to come from them, not him.

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