"We're Worth $1.5M but I Refuse to Buy New Pants": Ramit Sethi on a Couple Frozen by Scarcity
I Will Teach You To Be Rich
Mikaela and Dave are 33 and 32, have a four-year-old and a one-year-old, and earn about $278,000 a year. Their net worth is nearly $1.5 million. Mikaela still wears workout leggings with a hole in the knee. Dave works every day in a chair that hurts his back. On this episode of his podcast, Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You to Be Rich asks why two people this financially secure can't bring themselves to spend.
Sethi opens by addressing viewers who say couples like this are "unrelatable." He argues the topic matters because anyone who follows his system will likely end up with more money than they expected, and he calls it "a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to." He wants viewers to learn from couples still stuck in scarcity so they can change sooner.
The Numbers, and a Hole the Size of a Hole Punch
Sethi reads from the couple's Conscious Spending Plan (CSP). They have $545,000 in assets, $1,032,000 in investments, $106,000 in savings, and $195,000 in debt, all of it mortgage. That puts their net worth at $1.488 million.
He asks for one thing they wanted to buy but couldn't. Mikaela names her workout leggings. She has worn them for about four years, and the knees have worn through. She stands up to show the camera. Sethi describes the hole as roughly the size of a hole punch, right in the middle of the kneecap. Buying new leggings went on her "mental to-do list," and then she would ask herself whether she really wanted to spend $55 or $65. She waited until they were half off and paid about $25. She hopes the new pair lasts another four years.
Dave says he is "probably worse with clothes," but his example is his office chair. He works from home and sits in it all day. Over about four years it has become uncomfortable on his back and hips. He still won't spend $100–$150 on a replacement, let alone "splurge" on a good one. He feels he has to "make the value stretch." Both agree this is very much at odds with their finances.
"Hoarder's Mentality" and the Need to Work Hard
When Sethi asks what's stopping them, Mikaela points to "the unknown of the future and the expenses that could come with that." Dave calls it "a bit of like hoarder's mentality": planning and over-planning for retirement. He enjoys researching investment vehicles. He also says he recognizes "the opportunity costs" of not enjoying life now, while he can still move the way he wants. Sethi jokes that a person worried about saving too much who reaches for the phrase "opportunity cost" is revealing a lot.
Mikaela also likes planning for the future, but not the next two to five years. Her mind jumps to the kids in college and the two of them retired, and even that picture is fuzzy. When Sethi asks whether it's the idea or the feeling she's drawn to, she says she doesn't know what it would feel like to not work so hard for what they have. Both agree that working hard gives them purpose and drive.
Sethi then asks, "Aren't you guys pretty rich?" Both hesitate visibly before saying yes. Mikaela adds that "anything could happen at any point, and that's what scares me."
Two Health Crises in a Short Span
The couple then describe the events behind that fear. Dave has always been driven by purposeful work. He says he doesn't relax or read books, and he is always "analyzing and optimizing to make the right choice." He was hospitalized for a week with heart problems: his heart rate dropped far below normal and his mental state declined. The surgery, procedures, and medications that followed, combined with time away from work, sent him into what he calls "a mental spiral." He says he could almost argue that not working drove the sickness. Mikaela was five months postpartum at the time. She describes the shock of so many doctor appointments at their age.
Dave says the episode drained his confidence and felt like "a large step back" from the direction they had set as a family. Talking about it aloud, he realizes it pushed him toward the here and now, toward "we build from here" rather than a focus on the far future. He is progressing but says he has "a long journey." About two weeks before the recording, a dermatologist told him a cyst might or might not be cancerous. He is trying not to worry until they know, but he says it "compounds everything."
When Mikaela was about three months pregnant, her mother was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. It is rare and slow-growing, so there is no timeline, which Mikaela says is both good and hard, because her mother lives in pain for a long time. She estimates her mother has good days about 60% of the month and very rough days the other 40%. Her mother is the only member of her immediate family still alive, so the responsibility falls on Mikaela. Her mother lives three and a half hours away and plans to move closer within the year so Mikaela can care for her as she declines. The couple doesn't pay anything toward her support yet. But her mother didn't save for retirement, so they expect to help with rent, doctor's appointments, and transportation. Mikaela expects to be the primary caretaker while working full-time, probably with a visiting nurse eventually.
Dave sums up how they've reacted: "We've kind of been frozen." They know something is coming but not what, so they hold back on spending in case there are bills for her mother or for his own care.
Sethi's "Don't Freeze" Lesson
Sethi pauses the conversation to comment. Any one of these events is hard, he says, and together they are "devastating." He recalls a trauma and disasters class he took at Stanford and a study from his social psychology coursework. In the study, smoke fills a restaurant, people take their cues from the diners around them, and they keep eating even as the smoke gets so thick they can't see their hands. His takeaway was: don't freeze. Move, even if it feels like an overreaction.
He says he applied that lesson when COVID hit. He watched the numbers compound, and he and his wife left New York City the next day, before most people did. Friends in a WhatsApp group asked if they were sure. By the following Friday, he says, the situation was very serious. He thinks of that class when he meets couples like Mikaela and Dave. In his view they are not lazy or irresponsible, just frozen, which he calls "deeply human."
Where the Frugality Started
The couple's first substantive money moment came when they moved in together. They shared a three-bedroom, two-bath apartment with another couple, and Mikaela's first thought was how much they'd save by splitting rent four ways. Friends call them "frugal" and "bargain hunters," not cheap. The last time they bragged about a deal was probably within the past week. They bought their older son a bike for about $60–65 on Black Friday. On Cyber Monday, Dave checked whether the price had dropped and suggested they could buy it again and return the first one.
Mikaela says she doesn't want to be cheap. She wants to spend without guilt. But she feels stuck in the mindset from when they started dating with nothing and made careful budgeting work. When Sethi asks why they don't use their money, she lists what-ifs: a random doctor bill, one of them getting sick, the kids missing daycare, her mother needing help.
Sethi asks how much is in savings. The couple guess $20,000, then $80,000–90,000, then $120,000. It's $106,000. He points out that a $6,000 medical bill could simply be paid, or negotiated down and then paid. Each fear has a simple answer when the money exists. Mikaela says her mind "has not come to terms" with how much they have. Dave calls it living as though money were a scarce commodity.
Five Years Without a Vacation
Their last vacation just for themselves was five or six years ago. Even that was a trip to meet one of Mikaela's friends in Colorado. Mikaela wishes they traveled more. She says life and timing are unpredictable and she wants to make memories while they have their health and the money. She admits she gets jealous of friends without kids who travel constantly.
They used to take small weekend trips. Asked what changed, they say kids and different priorities. They get so "head down in the day-to-day" that six months pass, and when they do start planning a trip, they end up asking whether it's really what they want. Sethi argues that when a trip or a pair of leggings is treated as a to-do-list obligation, of course nobody wants to do it or do it well.
He notes that "kids" and "priorities" are the reflexive answers many Americans give. He doesn't minimize two young children. But he finds it telling that someone earning $40,000 with two kids and a couple earning this much give the same reason for not traveling. Mikaela says she handles the details of the kids and Dave handles prices and logistics. When Sethi asks who is handling the details of their rich life, they admit neither is. Dave focuses on investing and saving, which Sethi describes as "just accumulating money," not a vision.
Asked what happens if nothing changes, Mikaela says she fears that "blink of an eye, we're 65, 70" and they never did anything with the money. The kids would be fine, but she wonders whether they'd have enjoyed life, and given the recent health scares she hopes they even make it to 65. Dave foresees burnout, friction, and stress within five years. He pictures reaching retirement too old to use the money, with it going to health bills like knee and hip replacements, and still not knowing how to spend it.
Invisible Labor
While describing how they filled out the CSP, Mikaela says Dave handled the investment accounts and "big number" accounts, while she added subscriptions, daycare, and similar items. Sethi pauses here. He says that when he asks women on the show about their role, they usually say "everything with the children," and Mikaela agrees.
He asks how her days feel as she juggles her sick mother, the kids, work, and Dave. She says she is "on autopilot all the time for other people," and that her only "me time" is sitting at her desk at work, which she calls "a little pathetic." She has never told Dave this. When Sethi invites her to, she says she does a lot for everyone, it gets to her, and she needs a break sometimes. Dave says he doesn't want her to feel that way and wants her to feel comfortable asking him to step in.
Sethi says that in most households he works with, visible financial labor goes to the man and invisible labor to the woman, without anyone deciding it. He cites a quote he attributes to Jeff Bezos: if you're stressed, hire someone to help. The more successful you are, the more you can use money to solve problems. He suspects Mikaela hasn't let herself ask: "I've worked this hard, I've held a lot of this together, what do I get?"
Not Knowing Their Own Income — by $100,000 or More
Reviewing the CSP, the couple say "amazing" when asked how the numbers make them feel, which Sethi welcomes. They also realize they undercounted assets by about $30,000–40,000 by leaving out their vehicles, a Toyota and a Hyundai. Sethi approves of the brands and bumps assets to $570,000.
Both say they reached where they wanted to be for their age: finances, family, house. Dave says he registered it briefly and moved to "the next firecracker." Mikaela mentions paying off their student loans a year early and then hitting another goal. She says she is "living the rich life that I never thought was possible as a child," but wonders about "the next level." Dave says their goals have been so purely financial that they never considered the next step of a rich life, and that they still scrutinize spending because it slows those goals.
Mikaela then reads their combined gross monthly income: $23,186, or $278,228 a year. Earlier that year she had believed they made about $170,000. When Dave filled out the application, she got angry, thinking he'd inflated the number so much they'd have to email the show to correct it. They checked last year's taxes and found he was right. She says her "heart dropped." She was shocked and grateful, then asked, "but what now?" For months she has been trying to figure out how to change her rich life without feeling guilty.
Sethi tells her this is common and that asking for help is what's rare. It gets more complicated: Dave had told a producer he thought they made closer to $380,000, and their taxes showed about $340,000 for the previous year, which he attributes to stock allocations. His pay includes commissions, a stock purchase program, and stock grants. Mikaela says his compensation confuses her, so she stops at knowing he earns more than she does. Dave says he has explained it, but their conversations usually reduce to whether the budget and bills are covered.
Sethi calls this "interlocking": everything about how they handle money reinforces frugality, down to a bar as low as "can we keep the lights on." He asks, "How could you dream if you don't even know within $200,000 how much you make per year?"
He asks Mikaela why she never pressed for a clear number. She says she trusts Dave after ten years together. Sethi offers a comparison. He describes stories of husbands who never ask about their wives' medications or OB visits, and asks how it would sound if Dave said "I trust her" when asked why he never looked into her 20 medications. Mikaela says that would not go over well. She concludes she's comfortable letting "the money guy" handle it while she focuses on the kids. But she thinks she would celebrate more if she understood the numbers, because "stocks that are vesting" means nothing to her.
Sethi says he isn't being condescending. Talking about basics like income isn't juvenile. The couple may have expected him to just say "buy the leggings," but he sees his job as unwinding an interwoven set of beliefs and behaviors. With a solid foundation, he argues, decisions about leggings or an extra few days in New York become easy. Mikaela says she's willing to "start from ground zero" to feel freer. Dave says it could let them define a rich life together rather than separately.
Daycare, a Surplus Emergency Fund, and the Word "Need"
Their fixed costs are 60% of income, which Sethi finds high for their earnings. The explanation is daycare, almost $50,000 a year, which they put in the mortgage line. Dave thinks of it as rent for the kids' space. Mikaela's car was just paid off.
Sethi notes that $106,000 in savings covers more than 12 months of expenses, yet they still add $1,500 a month to their emergency fund. Mikaela says they haven't decided what to spend on. They could splurge on "stupid stuff," but they want quality time and quality things and are stuck, so the money defaults to savings. Dave agrees they have too much in savings. Sethi guesses Dave is about to suggest moving it to investments and says the answer is spending. People come to him, he says, specifically to learn how to use money for a rich life.
Mikaela says their vision is about experiences, not things. But whenever they start planning, the question becomes "do we really need that?" Sethi answers: no, they don't need any experience. He didn't need a pizza tour in New York or the museum he visited that weekend, but he went. Mikaela says she wants to be satisfied at the end of her life, and that making memories with her kids matters so much "because I didn't have that as a child."
Mikaela's Childhood
Mikaela tears up and briefly leaves the room. Sethi explains that guests sit in separate rooms for audio, so couples sometimes step out to hug.
When she returns, she says money was always stressful. Her parents divorced when she was about eight, and her mother filed for bankruptcy during the divorce. Her father ran a construction company with seasonal ups and downs. She never heard a positive conversation about money, and she remembers her mother taking only one or two vacations after the divorce. Since getting sick, her mother has said she regrets never doing anything fun for herself. Mikaela doesn't think more money would have changed that. Both parents had addictions and, in her words, spent frivolously on things that weren't needed.
Her lesson was "if I want something, I have to do it myself." At 14 she worked under the table. She was told to choose between softball and a job, so she quit softball to pay for car insurance, gas, and movies. She lived mostly with her father, who started asking her to pay the cell phone and cable bills, so she moved out early. Her father spent what was left after bills on socializing at the neighborhood bar and didn't care about vacations. He died six years ago. Her older brother died at 24, when she was 19, almost 11 years ago. She says it showed her that life can end instantly. Her father told her she grew up very fast that year.
Asked whether she remembers having fun as a child, she says mostly not, apart from bigger moments like Christmas. She felt she had to parent her parents and still does. She worked full-time through college and couldn't consider study abroad, which Dave did. Now she says she is having more fun than she imagined, but she feels guilty for wanting more than simply not struggling.
Sethi says she did what she was supposed to: she watched her family struggle and made sure it wouldn't happen to her. But unlike a child who outgrows clothes, money offers no obvious signal that you've made it. Scarcity instincts that once helped her are now hurting her. Mikaela says it explains why she is the way she is, and that she doesn't want to stay serious and consumed by household checklists forever.
Lofty Goals and Small Pleasures
Asked what she wants, Mikaela names a one- to two-week trip to Europe. When pressed for more, she struggles. She mentions that they discussed a vacation home, then explains why she doesn't want one. Sethi asks why she's describing what she doesn't want. She says she has been negative-minded most of her life. She would like a massage every month or two instead of once a year as a gift, but buying one for herself triggers "I don't need that."
Sethi argues that people who struggle to spend often give very ambitious answers. After six years without travel, a two-week Europe trip is like someone who hasn't worked out in 20 years saying they want to play in the NFL, which he sees as another way of deferring the dream. He'll help them get to Europe, he says, but sometimes the goal is simply ordering appetizers at lunch or getting a massage.
His one directive is to ban the word "need" from their household. He suggests making a ritual of it: both write "need" on paper, have the kids film it, and burn it. Asking "do we need this?" makes sense at $35,000 a year or with $250,000 in student debt. At ten times that income, he says, it makes you play small.
Dave's Upbringing and the "Supercharged Scarcity Couple"
Dave grew up middle class with two working parents. He doesn't remember deep money conversations or much hesitation around spending. As a small child he once sold his stuffed animals door to door for $5 each, and his parents made him return the money. He had a newspaper route around age 10 and hoarded the cash. His biggest purchase was a bike. Much of the rest sat in a shoe box for a long time before going into a savings account.
Sethi says cash in a shoe box usually indicates a scarcity mindset, often from growing up poor or with immigrant parents. When Mikaela and Dave found each other, he argues, the instinct doubled: "1 + 1 = 10 on the scarcity scale." Most people never change their financial scripts even as their balances grow, and the real question is whether this couple can give themselves permission to believe they have enough.
Both describe their shared money identity as "save as much as possible." Dave says he has thought about when to stop but never acted on it. Sethi asks again whether they're rich, and both say yes. He argues that identity naturally shifts with income, parenthood, and health. American culture praises staying "true to your roots," he says, but you can keep core values while no longer spending three hours hunting a discount on a chair. Mikaela recognizes that they believe every purchase requires the best deal. She notes that Dave takes a yearly golf weekend with friends, which she loves for him, but she has nothing equivalent for herself.
Asked where they feel supremely confident, Mikaela says parenting. Dave says parenting and finances. Sethi challenges the finances answer and tells them that to reach the next level, they'll need to become "a failure at saving." Mikaela says that will be very hard after so many years. Dave says just hearing it, "the stress kind of melts off."
Speaking in Positives
When Sethi asks what an amazing relationship with money would look like, Dave begins with what he won't do: not limit date nights, vacations, or experiences. Sethi asks him to state what he will do. Dave describes being proactive about family activities and scheduling weekly date nights, such as a cooking class or bowling. Sethi suggests date nights every week or two that are each "magical," whether that means cheesecake or something extravagant once in a while. Dave adds a World Cup match, a trip for just the two of them at least once a year, and redecorating rooms so they are enjoyable to live in. On furniture, Sethi says people with money are decisive: if a headboard doesn't work, donate it and buy another, because any complex system has some waste.
Mikaela still hears hesitation from Dave. Sethi predicts both will hear an inner voice saying something is too expensive. His advice is to take money out of the first step of their thinking: first "we want this," then logistics like childcare, and money much further down the list.
For home life, Mikaela notes they already hire a cleaner once a month, funded by her bonus since before the baby. She'd like to go biweekly. Sethi suggests framing wishes as "Imagine I wake up every Monday morning and our house is clean." Dave wants a real office with better lighting, a better background, and a better chair, instead of a room that doubles as a guest room and storage. Mikaela first describes their closet as a chaotic two-year to-do item. Sethi stops her and asks for the positive version. She describes an organized closet with shelving where everything has a place and she's in and out quickly. Sethi says focusing on negatives is another interlocking way to avoid spending, since nobody wants to dwell on unpleasant things, and the closet could be done in seven days. Mikaela also wants a better coffee maker, an "elevated Ninja" rather than an espresso machine. They have recently started buying better coffee beans and can taste the difference.
Planning the Europe Trip
They mention Spain, Portugal, and Italy. Dave describes relaxed breakfasts, good Spanish coffee, and lunch at a vineyard. For a two-week trip, the kids would have to come, though Mikaela wants a focused family trip. They could invite Dave's retired father and his girlfriend for part of the trip, perhaps the last four days, and have them watch the kids for a full day.
Sethi offers options. One is a short trip for just the two of them, even a two-day US getaway to "get your feet wet." Another is staggering family help so grandparents overlap for a few days while the couple goes off alone. A third is a travel nanny, hired at home or at the destination, which involves trust. Mikaela says these are more options than she thought possible, especially the travel nanny. She likes the idea of paying the in-laws' expenses in exchange for their time.
They estimate the trip at $10,000–12,000, then $14,000–15,000. Sethi asks what if it's $25,000. Dave says that's "high in my head," but it's fine as long as they get the experiences, and "25's the number." Sethi says he's impressed, given how long they've lived otherwise.
Rewriting the Spending Plan
Their plan has fixed costs at 60%, investments at 17% (almost $6,000 a month including pre-tax), and savings at 13%. Asked how he'd feel if they stopped saving, Dave says he'd need a plan for the money. He admits his discomfort with their large savings is about lost returns. Sethi calls this the wrong frame: savings are meant to be liquid. He recalls COVID-era readers who were afraid to use their emergency funds to stay home and protect themselves or their elderly parents, and calls that personal finance "gone very, very wrong."
Their vacation line is currently zero. Mikaela suggests at least $1,000 a month. Sethi proposes moving the entire $1,500 emergency-fund contribution to vacations. Mikaela first targets travel in about two years. Sethi pushes back, saying people with money don't wait, especially given their health situation. They settle on early summer next year, before their oldest starts kindergarten, about six months away. Sethi suggests shifting more money: cut the $2,000 monthly investing line (distinct from the pre-tax contributions) to $1,500 and raise vacations to $2,000. As an illustration, he even drops a line to $500. He says pulling another $5,000 from savings for the trip would be fine.
Their "guilt-free spending," about $1,400 a month, currently goes to Target and Amazon. Sethi says that should be for themselves, not diapers or household items. They add date night every other week at about $250, including a sitter at $20 an hour, around $80 a night. Mikaela adds a monthly massage and a cleaner every other week. Dave adds golf and a weekly sport.
$18.2 Million, and Embarrassment
Asked what they'll have at retirement, Dave guesses $4 million and Mikaela guesses $2–2.5 million. They've never run the calculation and have only tracked milestones. By Sethi's projection, at their current pace they would retire with $18.2 million.
Mikaela says she doesn't want that. She wants to use the money throughout her life. Dave says, knowing it may come out wrong, that he feels embarrassment at how little they've given themselves and others. He wonders what they'd even do with it, "pay for a cyber body?" They don't plan a large legacy beyond some generational wealth. Sethi says that admission takes courage, especially for a man in charge of the finances. Mikaela, tearing up, says the number gives her relief. Caring for her mother next year won't need to be stressful.
Sethi gives concrete suggestions. Move her mother closer now instead of waiting for her to get sicker, and be generous. Start with a staycation, then take the kids somewhere next time. Book the closet work and the cleaner. Set a deadline for the office. Use a travel agent for Europe if needed. He calls this "lean forward in your rich life, not back."
He adds one more figure. If they stopped all retirement contributions today, roughly $6,000 a month, Mikaela guesses they'd have $2.5 million at 65. Sethi says it would be about $9 million. Mikaela says that is still more than they'll ever need. Sethi says it's now part of their job to spend responsibly and meaningfully, perhaps through charity or giving to their community. They could have found this number at any point, he says, but scarcity kept them from looking.
Dave Steps Up
Returning to Mikaela's "autopilot" comment, Dave says it's demoralizing and makes him feel he has fallen short as a husband. He notes that she gets up earlier to prepare the day and puts the kids down when he works late. He offers to take on meal prep or order DoorDash and handle dishes so she can watch a show. Sethi points out they could increase spending by $5,000 a month and still have more than they'll ever need. He adds that "you don't have to go to Disneyland to have a magical experience": a clean house and relaxed parents count too. Mikaela says the conversation surfaced struggles they'd had unconsciously for years, and "there's no other way to go back."
In his closing reflection, Sethi says scarcity will quietly talk people out of new leggings, a cleaner, a vacation, or an espresso machine while convincing them they're being responsible. He says what the couple needed wasn't a better spreadsheet but someone telling them they were okay and safe. He doesn't expect overnight transformation, maybe moving from "level 10 scarcity" to level nine or eight. He hopes that one Monday they wake up to a clean house and wonder why they waited so long.
Three Weeks and Six Months Later
Right after the call, Dave said the biggest surprise was how emotionally freeing it was to lead with vision instead of cost. He planned to treat cost as roughly the fifth consideration and to be intentional about guilt-free spending. Mikaela was most surprised by the retirement projection and realized they had "been kind of working together against ourselves."
Three weeks later, Dave said they call each other out when they slip into negatives or say "need," though much of their thinking is still cost-conscious. Mikaela said she's trying not to check the price first, and she has booked a deep clean followed by regular cleanings.
Six months later, they sent a video from Valencia. They had booked a 10–12 day trip to Spain covering Madrid, Barcelona, and Valencia. They brought the kids and invited family along, as Sethi suggested, so they could have some date days and dinners alone. They visited almost no museums but saw lots of architecture and ate a lot. They weren't watching bills or prices, and the kids had ice cream and churros almost daily. They said travel used to be "what if" wishing, and now they asked themselves what they were waiting for. They also reported averaging 19,000 steps a day.
It gets to me sometimes. I feel like I need a break.
I don't want you to feel that way. I really don't.
Aren't you guys pretty rich?
Yes.
Yeah. We have money, but both of us have a hard time with just spending. It's probably a bit of hoarder's mentality. We don't spend it, and we don't really have a plan to spend it. I'm scared that Lincoln and I were 65, 70, we never did anything with the money. The kids are good, but did we enjoy life?
Sometimes on this show, I like to show you what happens when people earn high incomes, but they struggle to spend their money. And I always see the comments. People sometimes complain about these couples. They say they're unrelatable. But I want you to know that this is an extremely important topic to cover, and it's important for you because if you follow my system, you will likely have more money than you ever thought possible.
I want you to learn from these types of couples who are still stuck in scarcity mode so that you can make changes now. In my opinion, it is a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to, and I am determined for that not to happen to you.
Today, I'm talking to Mikaela and Dave. They're 33 and 32 years old. They have two young children, and they earn $278,000 a year. That's a great income for any age, but especially impressive for someone's early 30s. So, why do they struggle to spend money? So much so that Mikaela wears clothing with holes in it because she can't bring herself to spend money. That's what I want to talk about today, and remember, I want you to apply the lessons to your own life. In fact, I think as you go through today's episode, you're going to be surprised at the reasons for being frugal. So, make sure you stick around.
Now, I'm looking at their Conscious Spending Plan, or their CSP. If you want my help with your Conscious Spending Plan, join my money coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching.
Assets $545,000, investments $1,032,000, savings $106,000, debt $195,000, which is their mortgage. Total net worth $1.488 million. Dollars. They have a net worth of nearly $1.5 million in their early 30s. Now, if this were you, what would you be doing with your money? Ask yourself that. And ask yourself why Mikaela might be wearing clothes with holes still in them. Let's get into it, beginning with our conversation now.
Help me understand a little bit about your day-to-day spending behaviors. What is something that you wanted to spend on or started to talk about spending on, but you just couldn't bring yourself to do it? I'm not going to judge you, I promise. Go ahead.
Just workout leggings. My leggings have holes in them in the knees from just years of use, and even trying to buy new leggings, I couldn't do it until there was a sale.
This is an amazing example. First of all, are those leggings in the room that you're in right now?
I'm wearing them right now.
Can we see? Okay. Okay, she's standing up. I'm going to describe what I'm seeing. Come closer to the camera. This is amazing. It's actually quite a modest hole. It's like the size of a hole puncher, and it's directly in the middle of her kneecap. It's like somebody punched a hole. Did your little 4-year-old punch a hole with a hole puncher in that?
Who knows at this point? It might have been a pinch from him.
I have so many questions. How long have you had those leggings for?
Probably 4 years.
This is amazing. I couldn't script this. I love my life. So, one day you said, "I'm going to get some leggings." Walk me through that. What happened?
Yeah, it's like a mental to-do list. Add it to the list, I guess. And then I'm like, do I really want to spend that?
And how much are we talking about?
$55, $65.
Why don't you just wait till the whole thing freaking tears apart? Why not?
That or a deal.
And how much did you get these beautiful leggings for this time?
I think half off. 25.
Wow.
And hopefully it'll last me another 4 years.
This is amazing. Dave, care to comment? What are your thoughts?
I'm probably worse with clothes. But if you were to say the item, it's actually this chair that I'm sitting in.
What? That chair looks like Batman's chair. What are we talking about?
I work from home, so it's a chair that I sit in all the time. It's grown very uncomfortable on my back, tight. My hips aren't sitting well into it. And I've had it for, I don't know, 4 years. And I don't know if it's purchased or worse, so I have to make the value stretch, but I won't go buy another $100, $150 chair, or splurge and get one that I'll sit in every day.
All of this is a bit at odds with your own financial situation. Would that be fair to say?
Very.
Yeah. Yes.
You want to spend more. My first question is what's stopping you?
I feel like just the unknown of the future and the expenses that could come with that.
Dave, what about you?
It's probably a bit of hoarder's mentality. Just planning and overplanning for retirement, what could be in the future.
You like that?
Yes, I enjoy it. Looking at investment vehicles and those kind of pieces, but at the same time I recognize the opportunity costs of what we could be doing. What we could do to enjoy now versus when I'm older and can't move the same way.
Probably a good sign that someone might be a hoarder is when they're talking about saving too much money, they use the word opportunity cost. I think we're onto something here. I think I get it. Mikaela, do you also enjoy planning for the future?
Yes, but not even the future a year from now. I can't think of the next two to five years. It's more so jumping to our kids are in college, we're retired, and even that is still kind of fuzzy. It's the idea more so than concrete details in place.
Is it the idea or the feeling?
The idea more so just because I don't know what the feeling would be, not working so hard for what we have.
Oh, right. Meaning, it's supposed to be hard. We are supposed to work hard.
Mhm.
If we didn't work, what would we be?
What would we be? Yeah. Purpose.
Yeah. Purpose and drive.
Aren't you guys pretty rich?
Not so-so. Yes.
Yeah. Wow. Talk about an uncomfortable reaction. Let's try that again. Maybe we can get it in slow-mo. Aren't you guys pretty rich?
Yes. Yes, we have money, but I feel like anything could happen at any point, and that's what scares me.
Well, I understand that you've had some recent life events that have really shaped some of your pivotal views on money. Would you be comfortable sharing a little bit about that?
Yeah, I'll share some. We kind of talked about a little bit of a lack of purpose. I've always been very drawn to work and purpose-driven work. And I think a lot of that, along with surgery procedure, medications, put me into a bit of a mental spiral. It's an overwhelming place. Time not driven to work, time not driven to purpose.
Can I read between the lines? Do you mean that you have always been driven, your identity has been part of work? When you were sick, you couldn't do that, and it made you question, what is my purpose?
Yeah.
Okay.
I'd almost say not working drove the sickness and lack of doing things. I'm always doing something. I'm always analyzing and optimizing to make the right choice. Were these the right three variables to pull on? Those kind of pieces. That always happens, since Mikaela and I met and even long before. I've always been very active, and I don't relax, read books, those things.
All right, that's quite interesting.
He was in the hospital for a week and had some heart issues, and that was scary just for the age that we are.
Yeah, that is scary.
And it was just very sudden, so it was just a lot of doctor appointments and trying to get him healthy again to just get back to our normal day-to-day. So, it was just a shock. I was 5 months postpartum, so the stress of new baby and, yeah.
That's scary. It's scary on so many fronts.
Mhm. Heart rate dropped very below normal. Mental state not up to what it was, and was ultimately hospitalized for a week as we worked through this. And then even coming back, for me it was a bit of a confidence drain.
Totally. Yeah.
Especially with working so hard financially, but also for the family and where we want to go. It felt like a large step back. And for us to kind of reset and—
A step back from where? What do you mean by that?
It felt like we had direction where we wanted to go financially, where we were going as a family, but being in that situation mentally and physically, it felt like, okay, there's this focus on—now I'm saying it aloud—it's the focus on the here and now and the, hey, we build from here rather than super focused into the future.
Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that, Dave. And Mikaela, what about you? I understand there was an illness in your family as well.
When I found out that I was 3 months pregnant, my mom was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. So, yeah.
I'm sorry to hear that.
We don't have a timeline because it's just a rare cancer, so it's slow-growing, which is good. Kind of bad because you're just living with the pain for so long.
Yeah.
But also tied into Dave's hospitalization earlier this year and just the unknown of that, it just really freaked me out on top of everything because just another person getting sick. She's the only person that is still alive in my immediate family, so it all falls on me to make sure that she gets taken care of.
How is she feeling day to day now?
Good and bad days.
Yeah.
Yeah. I'd say 60/40. 60% of the month, she can move, walk around and stuff, but 40%, she has really rough days.
Yeah. I'm sorry to hear that. I'm really sorry. How have the two of you reacted to Dave, your health scare, and Mikaela, your mom's illness, her cancer?
We've kind of been frozen. At least what I would say is we've kind of been frozen, and we're not sure what happens next. We know something's going to happen, but we don't know. Time is the most elusive and yet most valuable thing we have. We're stuck in where we are because we're not sure what tomorrow looks like.
And I think for a lot of reasons that's impacted a little bit of strain and stress on what we do, where we do it, how we do it, who we communicate with, but also what we do with our money. What do we spend it on? Knowing that there could be other bills that we're potentially going to have to look after her mom, or for me with doctor's appointments, or just with the family, more check-ins, etc.
What about for you, Mikaela?
Yeah, a lot of stress on the foreseeable future. I know my mom lives 3 and 1/2 hours away right now, but we talked about a month ago, and her plan is to move closer to us within the next year just because we will need her close to be able to take care of her when things decline more.
So, right now we aren't paying anything for her. However, she did not save or do anything really to set herself up to retire regardless of this illness. So, we know in due time that we will definitely have to pitch in to support some sort of lifestyle, whether that's the higher rent around our area for her or doctor's appointments, transportation, etc. So, it's just the stress of the unknown bills and budgeting that, and how do you live your life and enjoy it versus staying strapped and making sure that you're financially still saving for the future, but paying for these things in the now, I think.
Will your role in her care be her primary caretaker?
Yes.
Okay.
Probably. While working full-time. I mean, we'll definitely, when we get to that point, when the health declines, I assume we will need a nurse that comes around to make sure that she's getting the care she needs.
But Dave, what about your health? How are you now?
Progress. I wouldn't say I feel more confident, feeling better, but also still kind of recognizing that I have a long journey.
Okay.
And respecting my own health and keeping up with it.
Okay, got it. Got it. Day-to-day basis, are you able to work? You're able to be mobile?
Yeah.
Okay, good.
Yeah, day-to-day's really no change. It's more of the foresight, doctor's visits and continued checkups. I'll even expand and say, even last 2 weeks, went to the dermatologist because I have a cyst, and they're saying maybe it's cancerous, maybe not. So, it adds to a little bit of the stress, and I'm trying not to worry about it until we find out versus worrying about what could be. But I think it just compounds everything.
And of course, I'm stressing about that on top of—that's just another health scare that it's like, you've got to be kidding me.
I want to stop here for a second because Dave was hospitalized in his early 30s. Mikaela's mom has a stage 4 cancer diagnosis delivered while Mikaela was 5 months postpartum. And now on top of everything, there's another potential health scare for Dave. Any one of these things is difficult. All of them combined, compounding, it is devastating. It's almost incomprehensible what they've been through.
When I was at Stanford, I took a class on trauma and disasters, and I remember this example that I had also studied in my social psychology coursework. And that was how people take their cues from other people. There was a study where they have people eating in a restaurant, and smoke starts filling the room. And people are sitting there not moving, and guess what other people do? They just keep eating. At a certain point, the smoke is so thick, you can't even see your own hands, and people are still eating their food. It's almost unbelievable. But that is what happens.
The lesson that I took away from that trauma class is, don't freeze. If something bad is happening, don't worry what other people are doing. Move. Even if it feels silly, even if it feels like an overreaction, you got to move. That's why when COVID hit, my wife and I were living in New York City, and I looked around and saw what was happening with the compounding numbers, and I said, "We are out of here tomorrow." We left immediately before others left. And I remember our friends were on a WhatsApp group, and we told them, "We're leaving tomorrow morning." And they were like, "Really? Are you sure?" It felt like an overreaction. By next Friday, it was a very serious thing.
And I think about that class every time I meet a couple like Mikaela and Dave. People who are not lazy. They're not irresponsible. People who are simply frozen. That doesn't make them bad people. It's actually deeply human. So, right after this, I want to help them start moving again.
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When did money come up for the first time between the two of you in a really substantive way?
The one thing that I can think of is when we first decided to move in together, we had another couple that was close friends. So, the four of us moved into a three-bedroom, two-bath apartment. The first thought that I can think of is, "Oh my God, how much money we are going to save because we're splitting it four ways."
Holy. Who around you has called one or both of you penny pinchers or cheap?
Not the word cheap, but definitely frugal and bargain hunters.
And friends, family?
Friends.
Yeah. When was the last time that you told somebody how good of a deal that you got on something? I'm going to guess it's in the last month.
Probably the last week. Probably Black Friday sales. For our oldest son, he's getting a bike for Christmas. It was like 60, 65 dollars. And then Cyber Monday rolls around and Dave goes, "Hey, how much is it now? Can we get a better deal?" And he was like, "We could buy it again and return it."
All right. Well, you guys want to be cheap?
No, I mean, it got us to where we are, but no, I want to be able to spend our money and not feel guilty about it. I just feel like we can't get out of the mindset of when we first started dating and had nothing. And we made that work so well, budgeting and getting to where we are, that it's so hard to get out of that mindset of we have the money, why don't we use it?
Answer the question for me. Why don't we do this?
Because what if something happens? What if we get a random doctor bill or one of us gets sick or the kids can't go to daycare for a week for some odd reason or my mom needs it or something else?
Pause, pause, pause, pause. Let's take it step by step. How much do you guys have in your savings account?
Isn't it like 20,000 or—
80,000, 90,000 maybe.
Oh, I thought I was just talking about mine. Sorry.
That's also not the number. It's higher than that.
120,000.
It's $106,000. 106. You get a $6,000 medical bill, you write a fat check. Here, take it. Get the out of my life, medical industry. Or even better, you call them and negotiate it down and then you write the check for $4,000.
Yeah. What's going on that in each of these examples the answer is actually quite simple if you have the money, but the fear of it, the idea of it seems to be quite overwhelming? What do you think's going on there?
Like I said, my mentality is still stuck in the we just are in the grind of it and we don't have the money. My mind has not come to terms with how much we have saved and invested and come to have at this point.
It's a frugality mindset and living as if it's a scarce commodity. Like we don't have the number in our bank account. We couldn't cover that cost.
Yeah. When was the last time you took a trip?
It's been 5 years since we've done a vacation just for us. And even that was us going and then meeting up with one of my friends in Colorado, which was great. It was fun, but it's not just us. So approximately 5 or 6 years ago.
And how do you feel about that? Some people are perfectly fine traveling once every 5 years, some are not. What's your take on that?
I definitely wish we were traveling more. Life and timing is so unpredictable. You don't know how long you have, so while we have our health and the money, I would love to start making those memories together for us and our family and enjoying it before it's too late.
I appreciate that.
Yeah. I got jealous of my friends that travel constantly, but they don't have kids, so it's a little easier for them.
Is the reason that you don't travel kids?
I'd say partial, just because child care.
Dave, what's going on in your head? I can see you're thinking right now.
That's what we used to do in the past. We would just build, not necessarily a big vacation, but just weekend and things to do.
What changed?
Lack of fun.
Maybe, but what changed? Why?
Now, kids, different priorities, and we were putting our priorities into different places.
Yeah, and I feel like we get so head down in the day-to-day that you look up and you're like, "Oh crap, 6 months have gone by." Just this year it's like, where did the whole year go? Did we do anything for ourselves? And then even if it's with the kids, once we start planning it, it hits a point where it's just like, not that is this even worth it, but it's like, is this actually what we want to do?
Do you see why? If you approach something as a to-do list, whether it's buying new leggings or taking a family trip, if you approach these things as an obligation, as an "Oh God, we got this family trip. Oh God, I got to get new leggings," then of course you're not going to want to do it or do it well.
Yeah. It just becomes one thing that's just relegated to, "Oh God, add it to my to-do list." I have things on my to-do list that have been there for like 3 months. Deep down, I just don't want to do them.
I think that was quite illuminating. Okay. When I asked you why did you used to do that, but you don't do it now, the answer that you gave me was almost reflexive. It is what so many people in America say. What was the answer?
Priorities and kids.
Kids. Now let's not minimize kids. It's a 4-year-old and a 1-year-old. That's a lot of work. And you love your kids. You want to be with them. I understand that. But it's quite interesting that people making $40,000 a year with two kids would say kids. And then we have a couple like you making way more money and your answer is the same for why you couldn't take a trip in the last 5 or 6 years.
I feel like I get in the details of our family and all of the XYZ of the kids and then Dave gets on the details of the price and sorting all of that out.
Who's getting on the details of the two of you having a rich life?
Neither one of us have focused on it.
Yeah. I feel like financially Dave focuses on making sure that we invest right and we save and everything, but as—
A rich life. That's just accumulating money.
Yeah. A rich life is having a vision. So here you are today. You've made a certain series of decisions, interlocking. And you got money. I want to look at your numbers in a second. But I'm just wondering if none of us change on this call today, if the two of you don't change a thing, what happens?
I'm scared that we, blink of an eye, we're 65, 70. We never did anything with some money. Yeah, we have a great retirement, I hope. The kids are good, but did we enjoy life?
Or I hope to God we even make it to 65. With all of the health scares that we've encountered this year and last year, I'm terrified that we don't use it and something happens to one of us and then we don't get to share those memories together, and that's really scary to me.
I'm almost more short-sighted and I could see the burnout, the friction, the frustration, the stress that happens if we don't really start thinking about this in the next 5 years. We're going to have money in retirement, not be able to use it because we're old. This is just going to go to hospital bills or health bills or whatever. Check in, knee replacements, hip replacements.
Yeah, and then we still don't know how to use it in retirement. So then we just have so much leftover money that that's amazing for our kids, but I would like to use it and create these memories while they're young, while we're young and healthy. So that's where my fear lies.
I think both of those are real. I would like to understand a little bit about your numbers. So a couple of questions, what was it like creating the Conscious Spending Plan together?
That stuff is a little more confusing for salary-wise, so it took a little longer on that end. But for the most part the investment accounts and all of the big number accounts I feel like were on him, and then I came in with the subscriptions, what we pay for daycare, things like that.
That's, yeah. Don't. Mikaela, I was trying to get to the numbers and now you diverted me and now we have to talk about this. Mikaela, have you heard me talk to men and women on this podcast and then I'll ask the women, "What is your role in this relationship?" And what do they always say?
Everything with the children.
Exactly. On a given day, Mikaela, when it comes to thinking about navigating your mom who's sick, your kids who need attention, work, Dave, all of it, how would you characterize how that feels?
I feel like I'm on autopilot all the time for other people. I feel like my me time is when I'm sitting at my desk at work and that's a little pathetic. Because it's like I'm doing that for my family as well.
Have you told Dave this?
No.
You want to tell him?
I feel like I do a lot for everyone and it gets to me sometimes. I feel like I need a break once in a while.
I don't want you to feel that way. I really don't.
I know you don't.
That's me stepping up, but I also want you to feel comfortable in sharing and communicating this, too. When you need a break, "I'm going to go sit down. I need you to do this."
Yeah.
I see this a lot. In most households I work with, the financial labor is divided the same way. A lot of visible labor goes to him, a lot of invisible labor goes to her. Nobody ever sat down and decided this, it just kind of happened. And it shows up in the small stuff. Who's handling the pediatrician appointments? Who's tracking what they need for groceries? That's Mikaela. I suspect this hasn't been brought up at home. And there's a lot of discussion happening these days about invisible labor. I think it's an important topic to have.
On the financial side, it reminds me of this famous quote that Jeff Bezos once told his senior executives. He said, "There's no reason for you to be stressed out. If you're stressed out, you should hire someone to help." And his point was, the more successful you get, the more you can deploy money to solve problems. For somebody making $278,000 a year with $1.5 million in the bank, they can afford to solve some of these problems.
And I think there's a question underneath all of this that she hasn't let herself ask it. I've worked this hard, I've held a lot of this together, what do I get? That is what I want to show her today. We're going to get into the numbers right after this.
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Here we go with the CSP. Holy, there's a lot of zeros on this CSP. Okay, hold on. Dave, can you read off the word in bold and the number in full next to it for that entire box, please?
Assets, 545,000. Investments, 1,032,000. Savings, 106,000. Debt, 195,000. Total net worth, 1,488,000.
Okay, well done. What do you think about those numbers?
They're amazing.
They are amazing, and I also realized that we shorted assets a bit.
545,000 of assets, $1 million in investments. You all are in your early 30s. Incredibly impressive. And I also love that both of you said, I said, "How do you feel?" You said, "Amazing." That is awesome. That is appreciation for what you have clearly worked very hard for.
Where we are is where we wanted to be. We're okay with this forever versus, hey, let's plan for the next thing. That's where I think we're lacking.
You made it to where you wanted to be in terms of your finances. Is that what you're saying?
Yep, finances, family, house.
Well, for this age, yeah.
Great. Congratulations. That's really cool. Did you stop and kind of recognize what you've achieved?
I think for me quickly and then just kind of like, "Okay, we're there. Now, what's the next thing? Put the next firecracker out there."
Okay, I get that. I totally understand and connect with that. Mikaela, what about you?
We recognize the milestones that we've hit. Like even
When we paid off our student loans, we paid them off a year before we wanted to. We were excited. Like, "Wow, we actually did it." And then we came up with a new goal, hit that recently. So it's like, "Wow, we did that one now, too. So what's next?"
I feel like how we have acted financially back right after college, it did help us get to where we want to be. But now I feel like I am living the rich life that I never thought was possible as a child, and I love that. But now it's like, well, do I want to stay content like this, or wouldn't it be more fun, or have another vision laid in place for the next level of that rich life?
I think a lot of our goals have been so financially based that we haven't thought about the next step of rich life. We just hit financial goal, financial goal, financial goal.
Well, why don't you guys just keep doing it for the rest of your life? Come on. That's what they say, right?
How fun we are talking about the plan. I think that's it. We question and analyze spend as we won't hit that financial goal as fast.
Now, how much did you short your assets by?
I would say probably 30 to 40,000. Didn't really account for the vehicles in it.
All right, I'll add it. Wait, what kind of vehicles? Because if they're vehicles I don't like, I'm just going to leave them out and keep them out. What are they? What brand?
Toyota and Hyundai.
Oh my God! I love it. Okay, I'll add them in. 545,000 turns into, what do we say, 570? How about that?
Yeah, 570's good.
Let's do income. Mikaela, can you read off the combined gross monthly income, please?
23,186.
Great. So combined, the two of you make $278,228.
Last we spoke earlier this year, I thought it was like 170, which I thought was amazing. And then I was like, "Oh my God, we make that much?"
What is this? People coming on and not realizing by $100,000 how much they make per year. What world am I in?
She actually got mad at me and thought that I overinflated our numbers so much that I had to email you all to change it. And then we looked back at our taxes last year and confirmed that we weren't that far off.
Wow. Mikaela, what did it feel like when you realized your household makes an extra 100k per year?
I felt like my heart dropped. I was just like, holy... I was shocked.
Finish the sentence, holy what?
I never thought that was possible.
Okay, and then?
It's amazing, but what now?
Well, tell me, what is the answer to that?
That's kind of why we came on the show. And then not just that, but I've been the last few months trying to cycle through my head, I need to change my rich life. How do I do that without feeling guilty? Even seeing that big number, and I know how amazing it is, and I'm absolutely grateful because, like I said, I never thought that would be possible in my lifetime, to be as fortunate as we are. But now I feel like I'm so stuck at a certain level that I can't elevate and not feel guilty about wanting to spend our money.
Yeah. That's really common. It's really common. You're not alone, you're not weird, you're not broken. That is very common. What is rare and what I think is really impressive is that you are asking for help. Okay? It's not a topic that's talked about a lot. It's quite taboo. "Hey, we make a lot of money, more than we ever thought possible. In fact, oops, I underestimated our household income by $100,000. What do we do now?" The typical advice in America is, just count your blessings and save it because you never know what's going to come around the corner.
And I feel like we're there now because we have a lot of hardships that have happened and are still to come.
But can I make a point to you that you would be doing the same thing if you had no illnesses in your family?
Yeah. It just heightens it more, I think.
Yeah. But you know that before you received the news about either of these things, this is what you were doing with your money. You're doing exactly this.
Yeah, because even last year, the numbers might not have been as high, but I could think of something like we were about to have a baby. So it's like, oh, well, we can't do anything because all of these expenses with a new baby. So I feel like there's always an excuse.
Yes. Yes. This is a little challenging for some people to hear because for a lot of people those are major expenses. Having a baby is expensive. Buying a house or buying a car or a medical expense is expensive, no doubt. But one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you and one of the reasons that I make it a point to find people from all different backgrounds, financial, income, socioeconomic, racial, all of it, is that there are different groups in different times in life where we actually do act differently, or sometimes we have to act and think differently. This is probably one of those times.
Let's keep going. So on the application, you listed 270k, but you told my producer that you thought you made closer to 380k. What happened there?
So we looked back on taxes, 340 for last year. And that is, I think, because of some stock allocations.
Hold on. I need to mentally digest what's happening here. Mikaela thinks that you made 170k, then turns out you made 270k, but actually you made 340k. Am I being punked right now?
I feel like his job confuses me so much that I know he makes more than me, and that's essentially where I stop at.
Okay. So you get paid like what? You get a bonus and commissions and stuff like that?
Yep, commissions.
It's irregular.
Yeah, it's mostly predictable. There's also a stock purchase program that I take part in, as well as granted some stock.
Have you communicated how your income works to Mikaela?
Yes.
Why do you say it like that?
I say yes, I've communicated how it works, but it's also at a point where our question just goes to, okay, well, are we covering our budget? Are we covering our expenses? And then it's, okay, well, then we should be good.
As long as the budget and the bills are getting paid, we can do our day-to-day, buy the things we can for the kids and stuff. I'm not thinking a higher level than that.
Look at my hands. Look at my hands. It's interlocking. Everything about the way that the two of you interact with money is interlocking on the frugality basis. Even knowing your household income, do we cover our budget? Can we keep the lights on? That is how low, I think, of a bar that you are setting. You think I'm walking around like, ooh, do we have enough money in our checking account to cover our electricity bill? No way. That's not a concern. I've accepted that I'm never going to be concerned about our electricity bill, ever. I'm trying to elevate myself.
So the way that you two even talk about your income is interlocking to force you to not even dream. How could you dream if you don't even know within $200,000 how much you make per year?
I think it goes back to just living well below the means and staying below the means in order to be able to do other things with money.
Can I ask you a question? Why never did you probe him and say, "Hey, I don't understand all these vesting and this and that. Give me a number"? Why did you never say that to him?
One, because I trust him, because we've been together for 10 years, and...
Have you heard these stories and videos where women notice that their husbands never ask about their medical conditions? A woman might be taking medication, or she might see an OB, and husbands are just kind of like, whatever, you take care of your medication. Whereas wives are often making sure their husbands are taking their medication, supplements and stuff. Have you heard this before?
Yeah.
Okay. How about if that were happening here and you were taking 20 different kinds of medications because you were sick and stuff like that, and then I ask Dave, "Dave, how come you're never curious about it? How come you never asked Mikaela?" And Dave goes, "I trust her. I trust her. As long as she's alive, and I trust her." How do you think that would have been received?
Not good at all.
I'm like, why? You love her. Why aren't you looking into the details more?
Yeah.
So what do you make of this? Why have you not asked those questions? Think hard.
Because I'm just comfortable with him doing it and doing it for us.
Yeah. He's the money guy. I focus on the kids. And that's it.
I feel like if I understood the numbers more and have clear numbers put to them, I think I would be celebrating more or being like, "Wow, that's awesome."
Yes. Great.
Whereas when he says, "I have stocks that are vesting," I'm like, "Okay. What is that?" It means nothing.
Now, guys, I want to point something out to you. I respect you a lot. I am not meaning for any of this to be condescending. I think both of you are very intelligent, obviously very successful. So the way that we are talking about this, it might seem like we're bringing building blocks, when we're playing with these very juvenile building blocks. It's actually not the case. It is not juvenile to connect with your partner, even the simplest thing of, "This is how much I make." That's not juvenile. It's not pandering or condescending. We need to start at the basics, and maybe the person gets it. Okay, cool, then we move faster.
Mikaela, in part you came on here because you're like, "Why do I feel this way about leggings and travel? And we struggle to spend money, and we want to live today and tomorrow." And a lot of people, maybe including both of you, thought that I would wave a magic wand and go, "You should just buy the leggings. It's okay, you have a lot of money." Maybe, but that's so simplistic. You already know that. What is really going on is we are trying to take this interwoven set of beliefs and attitudes and behaviors that you have put together, and we're trying to unwind them. And you can see how far you have to go back. You don't even talk about your income.
And so this is the level of rebuilding that we are doing, and I hope you can see that when you start to build this solid foundation, things like, should we buy a watch or leggings or take an extra few days in New York, become quite easy. How does that strike you?
I would love to get to a level like that. And if it means that we have to start from ground zero again and try to work our way back up there, I'm willing to do it if it means that we can feel freer with spending and not question every purchase that we're doing for ourselves.
Fantastic. And Dave?
Yeah, I can see how it unlocks the future of us actually planning and getting descriptive about what the rich life is for both of us, and then getting invested in each other's rich life. Not just, here's our rich life individually, but also here's our rich life together and how they can join.
Yeah. Amazing. Can we go through some of the rest of your numbers? Okay. All right.
Again, I want to reiterate, you have a net worth of about 1.5 million, early 30s. Of that, 1 million is invested, which is really, really impressive. So we already know that this will turn into a lot of money. Very good. This is not just a high quantity of money, but it's a high quality of money, the way that you have apportioned or allocated. Very well done. You also have an extremely high income. That's fantastic.
And let's take a look at the rest here. So your fixed costs are at 60%. That's a little higher than I would have thought for a couple with a very high income. Let's dive in here. You got your rent. Is it rent or mortgage?
Mortgage.
It's mortgage, but I will say for that category, we included daycare on that because we didn't know where exactly to put daycare. So our mortgage is not that high.
Oh. How much is your daycare?
It's probably almost 50k a year.
Yeah, I think for me, I categorize it as a rent payment. It's almost like how you're renting for four years, the space for your baby.
All right. I think there's something there, but I don't know what it is, but whatever. All right, moving along here, your car payment is zero. What's the story with that?
We just paid mine off.
Great. Yep. I'm sure your gas is quite nominal. We can add it, it will make a zero difference, but you have $106,000 in savings, which is great. That's more than 12 months of emergency fund, but I notice that you are still saving $1,500 a month towards an emergency fund. What's behind that?
Just haven't thought of what to spend, not what to spend the money on, but because, yeah, we could go out and spend it on stupid stuff any time we want. We could splurge and get a whole new wardrobe or on our children and do some insane stuff, but it's actually spending it on quality time and quality things that we want. We're stuck in that, so it's just going to savings.
It's a lack of vision and leftovers. Do you appreciate that there's a point where you do not need to keep saving money?
I do. I actually think it's far too much in savings.
Okay. Yeah. Wait, is the next line that you're about to say, "I think we should move it to investments"?
That's always what Kristen head. Yes. Absolutely. Forehead. Spending.
The reason that you came to me, because there are a lot of other people who can tell you to invest more and be more frugal. There's a lot of people out there. You came to me. And so you know that I specialize in showing people how to use their money to live a rich life. So I know that neither of you have said, "Hey, spending it is something we've thought about. These are our three things. What do you think?"
It just kind of feels like you're like, "I don't know. We have this extra money. We haven't really thought what to do with it. We have all these reasons we don't want to spend on 'stupid stuff.'" But what about actually spending it on cool stuff, meaningful stuff?
Yeah. I feel like our rich life, the one vision that we have is it's not really things. It's experiences. But we're stuck on trying to create that experience because once we actually start planning, it's like, "Well, do we really need that?" I don't know. We just still get hung up on the money.
Can I just answer the question? No, you don't need that. You don't need any experiences. So there's your answer. What do you think is behind you asking the question? Because the answer to that question is very obviously no. I don't need to take a pizza tour in New York. But I did. I don't need to go to the museum that I just went to over the weekend. But I did.
I ultimately still just look back. Am I going to feel fulfilled at the end of the day, at the end of my life? Am I going to be satisfied with just working my ass off for—not for nothing. We have a beautiful life, but my whole thing with our family and our children is doing as much as we can with them and making those experiences and memories because I didn't have that as a child.
Can I understand a little bit more about how you grew up, Mikaela? I think it would help me understand your views on money today. So if we go way back to when you were a kid. One sec, one sec. I notice you're already tearing up.
Yeah.
What's going on?
Well, it's just stressful to look back. It just brings up a lot of emotions because, like I said, I'm very grateful for what I have now because I came from nothing.
Do you mind if I ask you a few questions about it?
Sure.
If you need to pause it or there's anything that comes up.
Let me get a tissue really fast. One moment.
I'm pausing to give her a hug as well.
Okay.
Little peek behind the curtain here at Money for Couples. We ask our guests to sit in separate rooms so that we get clean audio and separate camera feeds. But it also means that when things get emotional, they can't just reach across the table and hold each other's hands. So sometimes they leave the room to hug each other, to hold each other. And it's actually one of the most touching moments between couples because it's almost like there's an irresistible magnet bringing them together. They're putting each other first, not this podcast conversation. So I especially appreciate it.
Now they're back. Listen in as Mikaela shares her story.
What do you remember about growing up when you were young? What did your family say about money?
It was always
Stressful. It was always a stressful topic. My parents got divorced when I was in fourth grade, so like eight or so. My mom had to file for bankruptcy during the divorce. My dad had his own company, a construction company. So it was very up and down depending on season and everything.
What do you remember your mom saying about money as she was going through that financial hardship?
She was always stressed. There was never a positive conversation about money because it was always paying something off, paying bills. After my parents got divorced, I can only think of one or two times in her life she ever actually took a vacation. So that's, I think, another reason why I look at our life, especially now that she's sick. I don't want to look at myself at 65 and think I never traveled, and then I'm too sick to actually do these things.
When you say she never took a vacation, was that a sore point with her?
Yeah. Especially after getting sick, she has definitely said she regrets wasting time and that she never did anything fun for herself. And financially, I don't even know if she budgeted to even allow herself to do those things.
Do you think that if she had had a little bit more money, she would have traveled?
No. Yeah, I agree. Why do you think that is? What would she have said?
She would have spent it on something else. They also had addictions and stuff, both my parents, so they spent frivolously on things that I don't think were needed.
It's quite interesting. What kind of messages, looking back, did you take away from your upbringing with money?
If I want something, I have to do it myself. Okay. I had to get a job at a young age. I was 14, my first job working under the table. My ultimatum was, I played softball growing up, and it was either choose softball or get a job. So I stopped softball and I got a job to pay for car insurance, gas, going to the movies or something.
And then it trickled into—I lived with my dad mostly full-time when they divorced, but it turned into my dad saying, "Well, can you pay for your cell phone bill? Can you pay for cable?" So I moved out early because I'm like, "Well, if I'm going to pay for these things, I'll pay for myself and be independent."
Is your dad still with us?
No, he passed away six years ago.
How was he with money?
I would say a little better than my mom, but it was essentially, as long as he has money to budget to pay his bills, the rest of it he's spending on himself, essentially with his friends at the bar. That was his social. He didn't really care about vacations. It was more so the social aspect of the neighborhood bar hangout.
What part of the country did you grow up in?
The South. Any siblings?
I had an older brother, but he passed away when I was 19, so almost 11 years ago.
I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, thank you.
Did your dad's passing and your brother's passing, did that affect the way that you look at life?
Absolutely. There's no way it would have not.
In what ways, if you can share?
My brother passed away when he was 24, so I was 19. You're already going through a huge transition anyway because you're independent, college, trying to find yourself. So I think it just really shook me and made me realize that life can be short and it can end instantly. So that kind of freaked me out. But I do remember my father saying when my brother passed away that, maturity-wise, he said I grew up very fast that year. He could tell how fast I grew up.
When you think back, when you were younger, when you were a little girl, do you remember having fun?
I think of more of the negative than the positive. I feel like a lot of the positive I can't remember because you think of the negative more. Yes, there's bigger moments like a Christmas or something here and there, but for the most part it was very stressful. Right. And I felt like I had to be the parent to my parents more. So I was doing that from a young age and still continuing to this day. I feel like I am more of a parent than the parent.
You've heard the phrase parentification? Mhm. And I think about it as a young girl, and then as somebody who watched their parents get divorced when you were young. Mom struggles. Get older, got to get a job or play the sport you love, and then continuing on to your brother tragically passing away, your dad passing away. Now your mom is sick and you are the primary caretaker. That's pretty serious. It's quite striking that when I ask, "Do you remember having fun?" you essentially said, "Not really."
Yeah. Because I always had a goal in mind. I had to get this done. It was on me, and I'm fine with that, and I am the person I am today because of that, which is good. But it's like, "Oh, I want to go to college. I need to do it myself. I need to work full-time the whole time."
I remember in college, people going—even Dave went to a different country to study abroad for a semester. That was never an option. It was like, "I can't afford that. I have to do this and this to have the life that I want." And it was always just making sure that I'm good and in a place, because if it's not me, who's going to do it?
And now that you have reached the life that you never even dreamed of, do you have fun now?
Mhm. It's sad because I'm having more fun than I imagined I would, I guess, at the time. But I know now that I'm in a steady place where, at this income, we have been for a few years. It's increasing, if anything, which is fantastic. But now it's like, "Okay, well, what's next?"
And then I even feel guilty a little bit that I'm not happy with being at this place, because I am. I'm so happy that we aren't struggling, but there's got to be more than just being happy that we're not struggling. Yeah.
She's right. There is more. Mikaela did what you're supposed to. She watched her family struggle, she took notes, she made sure it would never happen to her. But in the same way that a child grows up, their voice changes, their height, everything, it becomes immediately obvious when their clothes don't fit anymore. But with money, there is no such signal. You can go from struggling to having a lot of money, but there is no direct signal that you have made it.
How many couples have come on this podcast and they have tons of money in an investment account or savings account, and the couples that I speak to still cannot internalize the idea that they're doing okay? Here we see her money psychology still stuck in a scarcity mindset. Remember, those scarcity instincts worked for her in the beginning. They got her to where she is today. But those very instincts are now harming her. That is what we are here to change.
Here now, we fast forward several years. Quite a few similarities here. What do you take away from those?
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense as to why I am the way I am, but then it's a little upsetting because it's like, well, I don't want to always be like that. I don't want to just be serious and always thinking about keeping the family household running and all of the checklists, just the day-to-day of our children. I want to experience life as well.
One of the big trips that we want to take, that both of us has talked about and just never implemented, is a Euro trip. At least a week, two weeks, Europe, traveling, seeing things.
What else?
That's the hard part. I feel like I'm still trying to envision what that could be. At one point, Dave and I were like, do we buy a second property? Do we buy a vacation home? And the more I thought about it, I was like, no, I don't think that's really what I want my rich life to be. It's great that we have brought it up a couple times now, but I don't think a second property would make me—
Why are we talking about what you don't want?
I don't know. I feel like my whole life I've been more so negative mindset than the positive. There's things that I won't buy for myself. Let's say a massage. I like getting them as gifts because buying them for myself, I'm like, I don't need that. But knowing we have the income, why can't I get a massage once a month or once every two months instead of once a year? I feel like it's almost uncomfortable for me to try to overarch and get into a new mindset of a rich life.
I'm glad to hear you expressing. See, what you did was quite typical, which is people who struggle to spend money, when I ask them what they want to do, they give me very lofty answers. I want to travel to Europe for one to two weeks. If you haven't traveled for six years and you don't take any trips, that's almost like me saying, I haven't worked out in 20 years, I want to play in the NFL. It is so unlikely that it's just another way of deferring my dream. Yeah. What would be much more reasonable would say, I'd like to be able to go to the gym once a week for one hour. Yeah.
So I can get you to Europe. If you want to go to Europe, I will help you do it. No problem. But sometimes it's as simple as I want to go to lunch and be able to order appetizers. And it seems so silly to say, I want to get a massage for myself. We make $278,000 to $340,000. Okay. But it's that N-word. Oh God, I'm going to get canceled again. It's the N-word you said, need. Do I need it?
If I can offer one piece of directive advice, it would be, in my opinion, that word should be banned from your household.
Probably, yeah.
It should be banned. And I would make it a whole theatrical thing. I would take a piece of paper, I would write need, Dave would videotape it. Well, Dave, you say it too. So both of you should take it. Let your kids videotape you. And you both write need, and you put it over the fire, and you rip it apart and throw it in the fire, and say, that was our past chapter where we had to ask, do we need it? When you're making $35,000 a year, or you have $250,000 of student loan debt, that is a question you would need to ask. Do we need this? But when you make 10 times that, it's actually causing you to play small.
Yeah, I want to get out of that mindset, for sure. Okay.
Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it, and I'm also sorry for a lot of the things that you have gone through. Dave, can we talk about your upbringing with money? What was your family socioeconomically? How would you describe them?
Middle class. Middle class, all right. And did you grow up with mom and dad? Yep, mom and dad. And did one work or both work? Both worked.
If you go back in time, when you were young, what do you remember your family saying about money?
Early days, there wasn't a deep conversation about money. I don't think I paid attention to it much, but there also wasn't any hesitation around it. I think the earliest thing that I've kind of caught from them is they were talking about money, and I grabbed a bunch of stuffed animals and went around the neighborhood trying to sell them, $5 to the neighbors. I came home, and they made me go back, give all the money to them and get my toys and stuffed animals. But there wasn't a deep scarcity.
What age did you get your first job? I'm guessing young.
Yeah. First job was, I think, 10 years old. Maybe earlier than that, doing a newspaper route. Would just kind of hoard the cash, trying to milk it as long as I can. Wouldn't really go out spending it, but started getting early days.
Well, what does a high school kid spend their money on anyway?
Yeah, well, there wasn't much. A soda to drink or candy, that kind of stuff. The normal stuff I'd get. A new bike, that was the biggest splurge that I can remember putting the money to.
So what did you do with the money? Did you save it? Invest it?
Saved quite a bit of it. A lot of it. The cash sat in a shoebox for quite a long time. The rest of it just went into a savings account.
Whenever I hear about someone stashing cash in a shoebox, it tells me a lot about how they grew up. There's a scarcity mindset that makes people feel money needs to be held tightly, where you can see it or even physically touch it. Typically, people who grew up with these beliefs either grew up poor or they grew up with parents from a different country.
David and Mikaela came in with that instinct. And what's interesting is that when they found each other, this scarcity instinct doubled. They're like a supercharged scarcity couple. One plus one equals 10 on the scarcity scale. And they've spent years actually building impressive wealth, but neither of them has let themselves enjoy the money.
They're still operating with that same mental script. Most people never change their financial scripts. They just keep going and their account changes, but it has no correlation to how they think or feel about money. The question now is not just, "Hey, do you have enough?" They have more than enough. It's obvious. The question is whether they can give themselves permission to truly believe it.
Until now, what has your money identity as a couple been?
I'd say save as much as possible, for retirement.
Okay. Dave?
Yeah, long-term planning and save, save.
Did you ever think about when you would stop? Yes. Yes. What? Really?
I've thought about it, but never executed on it.
Aren't you the guy who has $102,000 in your savings account and you're still contributing $1,500 a month to that emergency fund? Yeah. You all are rich, do you know that? Yeah. Yes. Wow. Okay, cool. That's cool. Even though it's a little painful for you to say, I love that you both said it. That's great. Yes.
I'm just telling you that as you change, as you start to make more, as you change socioeconomically, your attitudes and behaviors often shift. And that's not a bad thing. In fact, it's quite counterculture because in America, we really regale those who are like, they stayed true to their roots. They didn't get too big for their britches. We've all heard these phrases.
The idea that your identity would change? Of course your identity will change. Your identity changes when you become a parent. Your identity changes with your health as you get older, if you get super fit or the opposite. Of course your identity changes. And so, wouldn't naturally your identity change as well? You can still retain some of your core values and you can perhaps adapt. Maybe you don't want to spend three hours looking for a discount deal on a chair or a shirt. Maybe you want to travel a little bit easier.
So what do you think about that? Both of you kind of smiling and nodding. I'm curious. Dave?
It's strikingly accurate.
Yeah, I feel like we are in the mindset of, well, if we're going to spend, we have to get the best deal. And it's like, why are we living, like you said, why are we living in that mentality still when we can afford the things that we want? So why are we so hesitant to pull the trigger on that?
Like you said, if we want to start doing these trips or even smaller things, Dave always goes on a yearly golf trip, and that's something that he really enjoys. And so he's been doing it for five years now with some of his buddies. They go for a weekend-long golf trip, and I love that for him. I don't have a mindset of something that I do for myself like that. And why shouldn't I find something that I want and not have to second-guess the budget or second-guess the price on it before just saying, "Yeah, I'm going to go for this"?
Is there a part of life where you're both really confident, supremely confident? You don't second-guess yourself, Mikaela?
I feel like being a parent. I feel like I am a good parent.
Wow. That's power. I love that. Okay. And Dave?
Yeah, I would say finances, but also parenting.
And wait, finances? What do you mean? You told me you second-guess. You didn't tell your wife your income. You're planning based on logistics.
I feel like Dave and I perhaps have more—
Well, that's actually quite intriguing.
Because in order to get to the next level of personal finance, you're actually going to need to radically change your relationship with saving. You're actually probably going to become a failure at saving.
That's really, really hard, especially since we've been in this mindset for so many years. Yeah. Yeah, even just you saying that, the stress kind of melts off, like, "Oh, that's going to be just different, not seeing it kind of get socked away."
But you're actually going to build something amazing. What would it be for you, Dave? If you're going to build something amazing in terms of your relationship with money, what would it be?
If I'm building something amazing in terms of my relationship with money, it's being a better husband and parent in the freedom of finances.
Okay, keep going. So, not worrying, not limiting the experiences, not limiting date nights, not limiting vacations, not limiting things that I was blessed enough to experience myself as a kid, not limiting our kids in the opposite.
I don't want to hear what it's not going to be. I want to hear what it is going to be.
It's going to be being proactive in finding things to do with our family. Being proactive in scheduling weekly date nights. Just go to a fun cooking class or go bowling. Do something that we used to do as teens and fun and—
Great. Here's how I would describe it. I want you to start using language that is intentional. So, instead of saying, "I am not going to want to be stressed out by my—" I don't care what you do not want to do. We're taking that out of our vocabulary. We're going to talk about what we do want to do. What we do want to do, perhaps, is, "I want to be consistent. We are going to have a date night every week, every two weeks, and each date night is going to be magical."
Now, magical could be we're going to get a piece of cheesecake because we both love cheesecake. It could be we're going to go bowling because we used to do it as kids. It doesn't have to be expensive. Once in a while, it can be really cool, perhaps a little over the top or extravagant, but each is going to be magical and meaningful. What do you think?
I don't want you do things that show the people around us that we can have fun. Like, go to sporting events.
Like what? Can we get specific? Yeah, go to the World Cup would be awesome. I think it would be awesome. Okay, what else?
Love to do a trip, just the two of us, at least once a year. Great. And how about something more mundane, something more day-to-day?
I'd love to change out some of our rooms. Okay. Some of the layouts, some of the furniture. Actually get to decorating one of our rooms that we can enjoy living in it versus it just being a room that's got stuff in it.
Good. I like it. People who have money are decisive. What's the worst that happens? You get a headboard you don't like? Donate it. Get another one. I'm not encouraging you to waste, but I'm saying at any system of any sufficient complexity, there's a little bit of waste. It's okay.
Mikaela, what do you take away from Dave's responses? I feel like he wants to do these things, but I feel like he's still a little hesitant, just because I see where he's trying to come from.
In the back of your head, both of you are going to have a voice, I suspect, telling you, "That's too expensive. We got to start smaller. We don't need to do all this crazy stuff." Nobody, especially me, is telling you you have to go and drop $150,000 on some crazy trip. I'm not saying that. Yeah. Bowling sounds amazing. I love bowling. Take money out of the first part of your thought process.
No, that makes perfect sense. Number one should be, "We want to do this. Ooh, this is fun." And then number two, it's child care or are they coming? And then number three is money. We need to swap out these. Number five, number eight is money. Yeah. Okay.
I would like to talk about your rich life over the next three years. I'd like to do small and I'd like to do big. So, I'd love to start off with your home. Day-to-day life. What would a rich life look like?
One thing I can think about is cleaning. Last year, right before we had the baby, I did a deep clean, hired someone outside. And it was amazing. We realized that with my bonus for the year that I could essentially pay once a month for a cleaner. So, we've been doing that the last year, which has been really nice. Maybe upping that to not just once a month, but biweekly.
I love that. Can I give you a little suggestion on this one? We're talking about our vision and our rich life. Let's start off by saying something like, "Imagine." I love that phrase. "Imagine I wake up every Monday morning and our house is clean." What that does is allow us to feel it, see it, smell it. Notice that it keeps us out of the weeds. What else?
I would love to have a proper office. This room slash bedroom slash stockpile-of-stuff room that I'm in every day is aggravating, frustrating. What do you want in this office?
I'd love to have a better background. I'd love to have better lighting set up. I'd love to have a different chair that's better for me. I'd just love to have it feel like an actual office and utilize it in a way that we are going to utilize it day-to-day versus the once or twice a year that somebody comes to visit and stay with us.
Great. Back to you, Mikaela. The closet has been on our to-do list for a couple years now. We just haven't gotten to it yet, but just organization, get it to a place because it's very outdated and we have not touched it since—it's just chaos in there.
What would it feel—I'm sorry, I'm getting lost in all the negative stuff. Can you get me lost in the positive?
Imagine a very organized closet with shelving and just clean, stress-free. Everything has a spot for it.
How would you feel every morning when you opened up the closet? I can find things easily and I'm in and out.
Yes, great example. So, one of the ways that you have, in an interlocking way, created a strategy to not spend any money is that you focus on the negative. And I don't know if you noticed, but people don't like to hear about the negative or talk about the negative. It just sucks. So, you just go, "Ah, let's not even talk about the closet." Closet, it's been two years. You haven't done a thing. You could have that thing knocked out in seven days.
But part of it is you actually have to start talking about the things you want unapologetically. "I want a closet. I want a clean house. We both work really hard and we make a lot of money. I want a clean house. I'm not going to apologize for it." And you need to talk about what it would feel like. What would it mean to you? It would allow me to wake up on Monday and actually be ready to go to work. That means I'm not kicking freaking LEGOs out of the way.
Having a closet would mean I could finally see what I have to wear. That would feel so good. It would be the first thing that I do in the morning and it would set me up for the rest of the day. Isn't there a difference between those two examples, negative and positive? Yeah, definitely. Good strategy for you to implement, both of you. Give me another one.
I'm big on my coffee. I want to get a new coffee maker that works properly. What kind of coffee maker? Right now we have a Ninja, which is nice, but maybe not—I don't need an espresso machine or anything, but just another elevated Ninja or something along those lines.
What kind of coffee beans do you get? We just started buying a nicer brand of coffee completely and have noticed the difference, so I think now we're stuck in our ways of buying nicer, which is a good thing. Yeah, great.
Can we shift to bigger ideas of a rich life? You mentioned travel. Yeah. So, first I'd like to understand this Euro trip. We talked about Spain, definitely Portugal, Italy. I love that. Sounds amazing. Dave, you want to add anything?
We both enjoy food. Good breakfast and sitting and relaxing to enjoy the breakfast, good coffee, Spanish coffee. I'd love to go to a vineyard, do a lunch and then a vineyard somewhere to explore.
Is this the two of you or your kids as well? I am open for either. If it's two weeks, there's realistically no way we can go without them. But we have talked about bringing them on bigger vacations like Europe.
Could you bring anyone else with you to help with the kids? We could, but then I almost—I'm like, well, I want it to be focused on our centralized family, but we could potentially invite my father-in-law since he's retired and then his girlfriend.
I see. You want to have time for you four. But there's also something to be said for, "Hey, we also want some time as adults, the two of us." Okay, so how do you reconcile all that? How do you make that work?
Right now, everything's focused around the kids, but for a vacation, it would be planning two days where we don't have the kids. We get to do some exploration of historical sites. We have to go to Europe. Your dad? Yeah. We could invite his dad and his dad's girlfriend maybe for a portion of the trip. Nice. Like the last four days and see if they could take them for a full day.
Great. Love it. We're getting creative now. So, here's how I would think about a trip at your income and net worth level and with the constraints you have over young children. You want one-on-one time, but if you're going for ten days, they have to come one way or another.
One, you can just go for a short amount of time, the two of you. So, literally, you go for four days, find somebody to take care of the kids, make it so easy for them, and you all are on your own, and at least you just have that time for the two of you. And if you go, "Hey, we'd love to do that, but I think Europe for four days would be a little tight," maybe you take a two-day trip for just the two of you somewhere close by in the US. Just do that. Get your feet wet, and then you can decide about Europe later. Okay, that's option one.
Another option, I love what you said about bringing your dad. Bring him, and he can overlap. So maybe you take the kids for a couple of days first. He then comes, has them for a couple of days, and then all of you are together for the last day or so, right? You really craft that emotional experience. What do we want to feel? Yeah, we want to experience Spain with our kids. They're our kids, we love them, and then we want to hand them over for a couple of days so we can go do something cool. Beautiful.
And then finally, at your income level, there are travel nannies. There are actually people who can come with you, either from here, or you can hire them there, and you can find them. Now, that involves a lot of trust and things like that, but I'm just opening up the possibilities for you. How does that strike you? I'm not asking for you to make a decision. I'm just saying, how does hearing those options hit you?
I think it's more options than I ever thought were possible, especially the travel nanny. I never would have even—I know I've heard of it, I've seen it done before, but I've never thought of it for ourselves. I like the option, because I love spending time with my in-laws. It's not me not wanting to spend time with them, but I do like the option of, "Hey, we would love to experience this place with you, that you guys also having fun, too." And we're open to all expenses paid for your end. We just want your time.
Very generous. I hope that as we're talking about this, you're actually getting more excited. Because you go, "Oh my God, all these things that seem insurmountable, there are a lot of solutions we can have. It's just up to us to decide if we want to do this." Then the question is just the details. How long, who do we want to take, all that stuff. Yeah. Yep.
How much do you think a trip like this would cost? Ballpark. I'm not asking you to even be completely accurate, but just ballpark. Ten to twelve K. I don't know. This is two weeks? Yeah, fourteen, fifteen. I would have said twelve, but fifteen's fine with me.
Okay, cool. Look, I don't know the answer because it depends on what you want to do, where you want to stay, how you want to fly, all those things, but what if it was twenty-five K?
I feel like as long as we get the experiences and do things that we want to do and make it fun, I'm fine spending that money. It's high in my head, but I'm also looking at it as not scrutinizing the budget and saying, "We have to do this." I actually see this as a we-have-to-do-this. We're on here for a reason. We talk to each other for a reason. We already made a plan even without coming on here that we were going to do an international trip. Now it's a stop shutting of the doors. There's so many more options we hadn't thought about going into it. Twenty-five's the number. Twenty-five's the number. Put the money to it.
Damn. I think you guys are ready to start using your money for a rich life. I'm very impressed with both of your answers. That's really impressive, especially for the two of you. I want to recognize that because that has been how you have been living for a long time. And so for you to be able to do that with this example, which is a big one, is really, really impressive.
Can we go to your numbers, your CSP, and can we make some changes to make these things inevitable? Are you down for that? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool.
So, here we have your fixed costs at 60%. We have your investments at 17%. You're investing quite a bit plus pre-tax, so almost 6,000 bucks a month approximately, which is extremely impressive. Your savings are at 13%.
If you were to stop saving right now—I'm not saying you have to, it's your money, not mine—but if you were to just turn off the savings that go every month, how would you feel about it, Dave? I'd wonder where it's going. But as long as there's a plan for it, I'd be okay with it. What if there's not a plan?
I'm uncomfortable with the amount of money we have in savings. You're uncomfortable with it because you don't think you're getting maximum return on that money. Yes.
This is the wrong way to think about it. Again, I'm trying to systematically deconstruct the way that you think about money. I have a lot of money in savings. Okay, I like it because it allows me to sleep well at night. If something happens, I'm good. Okay, am I losing potential return or yield? Yeah. That's the point. It's supposed to be liquid. It's supposed to be there in case of emergency.
When people were going through COVID, early on, they had elderly parents, things like that. They were themselves immunocompromised, and they would message me all the time: "I have this emergency fund, but I don't know if I should use it to stay home from work." I'm like, it is literally the defining emergency of our life, and you are so concerned that you won't even use it to save your own life or your mom or dad's life. That's when you know personal finance has gone very, very wrong.
And although we are not talking about life or death, we are talking about serious health concerns, and we are talking about building a healthy relationship with money. So, the fact that you are concerned you have too much in savings, but only because of yield, really shows how trapped you are by this view that I need to be optimizing all the time. What would you like to do about your CSP to make these things you talked about inevitable?
I feel like the only place to really take out is stop allocating so much to investing every month. Okay. And start putting it into a specified vacation fund.
All right, let's do it. So vacations right now is at zero. No surprise you have not taken a vacation in a long time. It all makes perfect sense. Let's change it. How much you want to put in vacations, Mikaela?
Honestly, this might be a big jump, but since we're putting 1,500 into savings every month, can we do at least a thousand a month? Sure. 1,500. I would say let's do 1,500. Wow, nice. God, this is so cool.
Next year, I would love to not pull from our actual savings, and we do it, we do it now.
Okay, guys. So I just took the 1,500, I zeroed it out for your emergency fund, and I switched it over to your vacation. Okay? You have 1,500 bucks a month going towards your vacation. Well done. That's awesome. So, your vacation is going to
Happen when? Do you know?
Let's say end of summer next year before our oldest goes to kindergarten. Within the next two years, yeah.
Here, let me just tell you straight. When I'm rich, I don't wait. No way. I don't say two years, five years. No way. When? You're in a big rush. Both of you have health issues and all these things in your family. Why are you waiting?
Say early summer next year because our oldest goes to kindergarten, and then we don't have to worry about school.
Beautiful, six months. I think you need to put a little bit more than 1,500 in, or you will just draw some out of your savings, which is totally fine. You have way more than you need in savings. You're investing 2,000 bucks a month. Why don't we drop that to 1,500? How about that? And then raise this to 2,000. We're still good. Same thing.
Yeah.
I honestly think you could go way down, personally. Just as an example, hell, I'll go to 500 over here. I would love for you to make those plans together. And it's not a question of, are we going? We're going. We are a decisive couple. We have millions. We are going to create these memories. So, you got the trip, you got things in your home that you talked about. Fantastic. What else?
Date night.
Yeah. Yeah.
Date night every other week.
And allocate 300 bucks for that. Are you guys actually spending this guilt-free spending money right now?
It just kind of goes to Target and Amazon and—
That's not guilt-free. That's just—
There's not really a guilt-free spending category because we—
Yeah, no kidding. That's why we're talking. I actually think you should just commit to using the $1,400 a month first.
On ourselves and not—
Exactly. Exactly.
Store stuff that we need. Not diapers. Cleaning?
Yeah, diapers don't count either. Cleaning a person? That would be date night every other week. How much is your date night?
250, just because that's sitter included.
Yeah, great. You got to include the sitter. How much does a babysitter cost?
20 an hour.
So, that's like 60 bucks or something like that?
Yeah, like 80.
80 bucks. Okay, great. Perfect. So, yeah, that sounds very reasonable. There you go. So, you got that. Is there something about a little self-care?
I'll say a massage. Doesn't have to be—
Don't tell me what it doesn't have to be! Hey everybody, in my dream, it doesn't even have to be good. It doesn't have to be a human being. A raccoon can push on my back. I'm great. I'm so happy. I just want something to touch my back. We're not doing that. No. Okay.
Massage monthly.
Thank you.
As long as I get a cleaner every other week, at least.
Great. You could do it all. Yeah. All of this, this is not hard. You actually can do all of these things. And then Dave, what about for you? Is there something around self-care or something you enjoy doing?
Oh God, not this man thing again. Oh no, I just like to sit at home with my new office.
I enjoy golfing. Can't go every time, so hobbies of playing a sport, which I do weekly, or golfing.
Okay, I love it. Already, with minor, just shifting money from here to there, we've already funded the vacation. It is now an inevitability. So you will have many, many thousands of dollars for that vacation, and honestly, if you need to pull out an extra 5K from your savings, go for it. You have so much in there, it's fine.
You're still continuing to invest aggressively, which is very, very impressive. Do you all know how much you're going to have at retirement?
Four million.
Oh my God. This is going to be the best moment of my life. Mikaela, how much do you think you're going to have at retirement?
I don't even think as much as what Dave was saying. 2.5, maybe two.
So you all have been saving aggressively for years and years without calculating how much you're going to have.
Not in a simplified manner, no. It was more so hitting the milestones of paying the student loans off. Oh, we did that, and then—
Can I interrupt you? Can I interrupt you? As it currently stands, you will have 18.2 million dollars when you retire.
Yeah. I honestly don't want that. I want to use it throughout my life and not just hoard it at the end. What am I going to do with 18 million?
I want you to process it for a second.
I can't. That's an—
I want you to just listen. Dave is processing it. Dave, what's going through your head right now? I saw you really thinking about what I just said and taking it in.
Honestly, it's going to come off the wrong way, but embarrassment. And it's embarrassment of how little we've given to ourselves and those around us in the time that we've had. And 18 million in retirement, what are we going to do? Pay for a cyber body? What could we possibly do? I don't think we have a plan to leave a wild legacy for our kids. Sure, some wealth, some generational wealth, sure, but it's almost sad and embarrassing to say, why haven't we done this? Why haven't we committed to each other in this way?
I think that's a really powerful reaction, Dave. I really appreciate it. That's not easy to say. It's not easy for anyone, especially for men to admit that something they have done, something that you have been in charge a lot of, is embarrassing. So, I think that takes a lot of courage. I really appreciate that. And Mikaela, I noticed that you're tearing up. I'm curious why.
It just kind of goes back to, I'm grateful for what we have, but I feel like I'm taking it in and realizing, why am I so stressed about the day-to-day? Because I shouldn't be. It gives me relief, too, just knowing next year when I have to take care of my mom, it's not going to be stressful. Why am I giving myself future stresses?
Yes.
When the place that we're at right now, it will all work out.
You have more than you will ever, ever need. Ever.
And I thought I had a rich life now in the current present without knowing those numbers.
Yes.
Those things that we can do long-term for ourselves, for our children, for family, it's way more than I thought possible at all.
I want to just make a couple of suggestions now because you get to have these conversations in a totally elevated way. Number one, you don't have to wait until your mom gets even sicker to move her there. You have the money. Throw it towards her.
Yeah.
There is nothing like being able to take care of your family, especially when you have the money to do it. Don't wait. Be overly generous. As my wife says, she always reminds me, how do you want to have a relationship with your family and your loved ones? So if money is not a concern, which it's not, get the place right now.
When you're talking about a vacation, go. Don't wait. Start with a staycation. Have somebody come and take care of your kids. Next time take them with you. Bring somebody with you or not, it's up to you. Go to a nice theme park or restaurant. Don't think twice. The cleaning every week. The closet, have it done. The office, set a deadline. It should be done within X months. Get it done.
The Europe trip, start to dream together. And if you can't plan all this yourself because it's the first time taking a trip in a long time, get some help. There's travel agents who do it for free, or you could pay somebody. There's lots of options. The point is, lean forward in your rich life, not back.
Yeah.
I also want to point out one last thing, a number that should be incredibly startling to you. If you stopped adding money to your retirement right now, you just went to zero, you took all that money, what is it, around $6,000 a month, and just spent it on freaking dinners and cleaning supplies, whatever, you know how much you would have by the time, Mikaela, you turn 65? You want to guess?
I'll go with my original number again, like 2.5.
No, you'd have nine million dollars.
That's wild. That still also seems like more than what we will ever need.
Yes, it is. I can tell you from speaking to you, that is more than you will ever need. So, the point is, it is now part of your job to learn how to responsibly spend this money. Responsibly, meaningfully, but simply hoarding it, what do you want? Nine million, 12 million, 18 million, 36 million? None of it matters. It's irrelevant. I would rather you all set up a charity or start to give to your community. There's so many things you can do.
But seeing the surprise on your faces when I told you the number, a number which, by the way, you have been able to find out your entire lives, but because you were looking at the world through lenses of scarcity, it just never occurred to you to look for. And now just taking that off allows you to see the world is crystal clear, and you can shape it the way you want it to be.
Yeah, absolutely. We did all this work to set us up for this point to have optionality.
And you crushed it.
We want to do—
You both crushed it. Can we just take a second and a round of applause? Please give yourselves a round of applause for what you accomplished. This is very, very impressive. I do not see this that often.
We are lucky, we are grateful, but we worked our butts off for this. So, why don't we appreciate what we have and use it and create these memories?
Now, can I ask another question? Considering the fact that you two are wealthy and are going to be incredibly wealthy, how does that affect hearing that your wife feels like she's on autopilot and she's doing everything for everybody else?
It's demoralizing a bit. It's almost like, have I failed in ways of being a great husband, a better husband than I could be? One, I think it's a recognition, appreciation, and also understanding to allow me to step into it. Some of the small things she does in the morning, she's up earlier than I am getting us prepped for the day.
Yeah.
And then at night, sometimes I'm working late because of the job fan, she's also settling the kids, getting them down. What can I do to step into some of that, even if it is not the true action, but meal prep, or if that's, hey, I already have DoorDash, I already have this taken care of for the night. I'll do dishes, you sit down, enjoy a movie, enjoy a show.
Nice, nice, nice. I like this teamwork. Do you see how fun and empowering it can be to use money? And I'm not saying waste it. I'm not saying that you got to start spending a million dollars a day. That's not going to happen. It's never going to happen for the two of you. Never. But you could increase your spend by $5,000 per month, and you would still have more money than you ever know what to do with, ever, in your entire lives and for your kids' lives.
Yeah. I find that as we talked about the experience, and the experience of it is, this is an experience of daily life that we've sacrificed ourselves in for so long.
It's like y'all don't have to go to Disneyland to have a magical experience. You can have a magical experience at home every single day. A clean house, parents who are relaxed.
Yeah.
I know you love your kids. I can tell by the way you talk about them, but parents who are relaxed.
That's a big one, but yeah, this was even better than I imagined. I feel like we hit on things that we have unconsciously been struggling with for years, and now bringing them to the surface, I feel like there's no other way to go back. It's more so, how do we communicate better and work as a team to actually have fun in our life? We've worked so hard for this. Now is our time to have fun, have fun for our children, do things for my mom before things get worse. So it's just so rewarding to realize that.
When I told Dave he was on track to retire with 18.2 million dollars, did you catch the word he used? He said embarrassed. Embarrassed. Let's talk about that. Embarrassed at how little they had given themselves despite having so much. I thought that was quite self-aware. Embarrassment is a very powerful feeling, particularly for a man. Very powerful.
Here's what I want you to take away from Mikaela and Dave. Scarcity is so powerful that it will talk you out of leggings without holes. It will talk you out of getting a cleaner or a vacation or an espresso machine. It will convince you that the number in your account is never quite enough. And it will do all of this so quietly you never think to question it. In fact, it will convince you that you're being responsible.
But what got you here won't get you there. What they needed was not a better spreadsheet. To put it very simply, they needed someone to tell them it was okay. They were okay and they were going to be safe.
As for Mikaela and Dave, I don't expect them to transform overnight. This is an incredibly difficult transformational journey to go through. From scarcity to abundance, it's really hard to do. But hopefully, from going from level 10 scarcity to maybe level nine scarcity, level eight scarcity to maybe level six scarcity, I do think they're going to wake up one Monday morning to a clean house. Dinner taken care of. Kids are settled. And the two of them finally with a little space to breathe. In that moment, my wish is that they look at each other and they think, "Why did we wait so long?" That is when their rich life truly begins.
Jeremy followed up with the biggest surprise in the conversation. I think it's just how freeing emotionally leading with the vision really becomes, and how much more fun it is to talk about things rather than starting with the cost and fitting within the confines, whether it's planning our rich life together or even vacations. The conversation's a little bit lighter of a mood overall.
My biggest takeaway is really just leaning into Mikaela's ideas a bit more as well. Encourage it to be a little bit more fun and playful. Keeping costs as really a fifth consideration in things. And really, I think the biggest takeaway and probably the biggest area of work for me is also being very intentional with guilt-free spending.
Something that surprised me was definitely just how much we will end up having in retirement. I just never knew that number, never thought it would be close to that. I knew that we were aggressively saving in order to retire. So that was just a huge, exciting surprise, but just shocking, the number, because I don't feel like we need that much for retirement.
And then the biggest takeaway is realizing that we have definitely been working together against ourselves in spending any money. We're so good at budgeting and being conscious of the numbers that we're buying and the numbers on the shelf that it's kind of hindered us spending any money and enjoying the money on anything we want, especially trips.
And three weeks since we last spoke with you, and I just want to share some insights. Mikaela and I, the conversations around anything around money, we're quick to point out when we're talking about the negatives, and really try to make it a positive of, "Hey, what do you want?" And that vision and creative aspect rather than exclusion or cost focus. Albeit very hard to change, so a lot of things are still very cost conscious for us, but it is definitely led with a bit more of that future vision of what we want things to be like in our life.
Literally, we'll point at each other as we're talking about things and say, "Hey, you can't say need or can't say certain words." And I think that's really helped refine what we want in our rich life and also planning for vacation, too. So, look forward to giving you a future follow-up.
It's been three weeks since we spoke to Ramit, and I feel like we've definitely tried to make some changes in our household, including myself. I'm trying not to make the price of something the first thing I look into on a purchase and the priority. It's definitely taking some getting used to, but I feel like I am trying to purchase things that I want, not based off of, am I getting a good deal or not?
I also have a deep clean scheduled with the cleaners, and then after that, we'll have them be coming more regularly to our house to help me and take that lift off of me. But thank you again for the conversation. I feel like it was definitely a huge help for us to realize to just enjoy life, and we have the money to be able to do the
Things that we want, and we don't have to just focus on saving, saving, saving. So, thanks again.
And I have a very exciting update because six months later, here's what they have to say.
Hey Ramit, we just wanted to let you know that we actually did book the trip that we talked about on your podcast. We ended up going to Spain and we are currently in Valencia. We did 10 days and went—yeah, 10, 12 days. Did Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, and then we'll end back up in Madrid.
We did bring our kids, but like you recommended, we did invite some family to help us just coordinate travel and then help let us get some days and dates in and dinners in, so that was very nice.
We've been having a great time. Done almost no museums, but looking at a lot of the architecture, eating food, not worrying about a bill or prices or anything. The kids have been spoiled with ice cream and churros every day pretty much, and coffee. Coffee for us.
It's been an exciting one. We have you to thank because before this was always a what-if, wanting-type travel, but now after the podcast, you definitely made us realize, what are we waiting for? We have the budget and we were able to have this dream vacation, and you've definitely changed our lives and how we think about our budget and just our rich lives and not stressing so much over the money. So, thank you again for that.
Extra nugget for you, we're averaging 19,000 steps a day, so exploring a lot, and it's been awesome.
Listen up. If you want my help with your specific money questions, there are only two ways to get it. First, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply. Or second, you can join my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In that program, you get access to live virtual events, monthly group coaching calls, live Q&As, and an amazing huge community of other people like you. Check it out at iwt.com/moneycoaching.
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