"We Spend 179% of What We Make": Ramit Sethi and a Los Angeles Family After a Netflix Layoff

Overview

Melissa and Taryn are a married couple in their 40s living in Los Angeles with five children. On paper they look secure: a net worth of about $761,000 and nearly half a million dollars invested. But when they sat down with Ramit Sethi on his I Will Teach You to Be Rich podcast, their fixed costs stood at 179% of their income. Taryn had recently been laid off from Netflix, and the couple had built a pool costing more than $200,000 after an earlier pay cut. They had also borrowed $100,000 from family, and by their own account they had been cycling in and out of debt for about 20 years.

29 min read

Ramit wanted to know whether the couple was facing a temporary cash crunch that selling their house could fix, or a deeper pattern that would put them back in debt no matter where they lived. His position became clear over the course of the conversation. Selling the house was necessary but would not be enough. In his view, the numbers and the couple's own dynamic both pointed toward a much more radical reset.

A $75,000 pay cut, and then a house and a pool

Taryn worked at Netflix for 11 years and eventually reached a salary of about $350,000. Roughly three years before the conversation, she saw layoffs coming and moved to a different internal role that no longer involved managing a team. The move cost her $75,000 a year, bringing her to $275,000, which is where she stayed until the recent layoff. She said the household had relied heavily on her steady income for most of their two decades together.

Ramit asked whether they adjusted household spending after the pay cut. Taryn first said probably not. Melissa then explained the timing. They had been renting in a building with problems and had to move out. Melissa teaches survival swim lessons to infants and children, and they couldn't find a house with a pool. So they decided to buy a house and build one, so she could teach from home and bring in more money. They bought the house based on Taryn's original salary. According to the couple, they signed the papers on a Monday confirming her salary, and the reorganization news came that Thursday, as the purchase closed.

They went ahead with the pool anyway. They framed it as investing in Melissa's career at a moment when Taryn's own career felt uncertain. The pool itself cost about $120,000. Concrete, fencing, and an electrical panel added roughly another $100,000, and Ramit rounded the total to about $250,000. He stressed that all of this came after a $75,000 pay cut.

The costs nobody planned for

The couple said they felt over their heads almost immediately. They had known what the pool would cost but hadn't thought about everything that would follow. Melissa said her part of the plan worked: over four years she built the swim business to six figures, teaching from March through November, working around naps and around Taryn's work hours. But the house kept producing expenses. They listed a new AC unit, termites, about $1,500 to repair an electric front gate, a leak that required mold remediation, around $2,000 to maintain the hedges, and clearing a hillside behind the house for fire safety.

When Ramit asked where the money came from, the answer was credit cards. When the gap grew too large, they took a $100,000 personal loan from family to cover the concrete, fencing, panel, and other pool-related costs. The family wanted it repaid in five years, which meant payments of about $2,300 a month on top of the mortgage. Ramit asked whether they had run the math, and the room went quiet. They said they had put the payment into their budget, and Melissa knew her business needed to bring in about $4,000 a month just to cover the bare minimum. But Taryn acknowledged they weren't saving and had no emergency fund.

They described their conversations about money during that period as stress that would come up and then dissipate. Melissa's line was "everyone has debt," something she said she grew up believing. Taryn did not grow up believing it and wanted the debt gone. According to Melissa, the conversation would end without resolution. They didn't think their children, then 12, almost 6, 4, and twin 2-year-olds, had picked up on the stress, except perhaps the oldest noticing they went out less.

Twenty years of getting out of debt and back in

Ramit read from Melissa's application: they were in over $300,000 of debt, and whenever they had paid debt off in the past, it felt great until they slowly slid back. Melissa said she didn't know how it happened. Even at Taryn's peak income they carried credit card debt because they liked to travel and eat out. She described herself as a big shopper and an emotional spender: "I know some people emotionally eat. I emotionally shop." She said she had been in debt since getting her first credit card at 18. She is now 46. Taryn said she came into the relationship without debt and that it had been a lingering presence ever since.

When Ramit asked about roles, Melissa said she controls the money, makes most spending decisions, and is "the shopper." Taryn said she contributes "by not contributing." She doesn't say no or flag anything, and she trusts Melissa on groceries, supplies, and kids' activities. She said she saw herself as the one who "just make[s] money" and puts her foot down only on big purchases. Ramit told them he hears nearly word-for-word identical language from men in straight couples: I just earn money, she's great at managing the household, I trust her, I only put my foot down on big things.

The numbers, and how each of them reacted

Taryn read out the conscious spending plan (CSP) summary: assets of about $1.4 million, investments of about $495,000, savings of $50,000, debt of about $1.2 million, and a net worth of $761,000. Melissa said the numbers made her anxious, and she worried about her kids if something happened to both of them. Taryn said she had seen the numbers so many times that she glazed over and felt nothing.

Ramit said this was the telling part. The person "in charge of the money" found it an annoyance she didn't want to deal with. He compared it to someone in charge of childcare saying the kids are kind of a nuisance. Some tasks, like cleaning a bathroom mirror, can be handed off or ignored. Childcare and money, he argued, are things both partners simply have to find a way to care about. Taryn asked whether she could just hand the money to Melissa, because Melissa cares so much. She then suggested that now, with concrete numbers, Melissa could work with it. Ramit pushed back. These were five numbers that take about ten minutes to gather, and after 25 years of debt, gathering numbers wasn't the problem.

Their current combined gross monthly income was $11,900. Most came from Melissa's business, plus about $900 a month in unemployment for Taryn, compared with roughly $20,000 a month previously. They explained that no taxes appeared because business expenses and Taryn's former withholding usually meant they got money back.

Then came the fixed-cost figure: 179%. Ramit said it may be the highest he had ever seen. He read three things from it. You cannot cut your way out, because it isn't about brunch or toys. A structural change probably caused it, in this case the job loss. And the people behind it are very stressed about money. The CSP showed zero for investments and savings, and the leftover line was negative 79%, about minus $9,300 a month.

Asked how long until they ran out of money, Melissa estimated three months at most, and Taryn agreed. They were getting by on a family loan, credit cards, and Taryn's dwindling severance. Melissa said the money in their account didn't feel like theirs because they owed it to others. The major change so far was that they had listed the house the week before.

Why renting in LA doesn't solve it

The couple's plan was to sell and rent. Melissa said she knew fixed costs should be around 60% and housing 20–30%, and she was finding three-bedrooms at about $4,000–$4,500 a month. Asked whether they could afford that, she said that in her "optimistic mind," yes, because Taryn would get a job.

Ramit said that when he asks affordability questions, people almost never answer with numbers. Affordability, he said, is purely math. He adjusted their income for taxes, assuming a generous $9,000 net, and fixed costs jumped to 236%. Spending around 45% of income on housing with a family, when things inevitably come up, was in his words impossible. Both agreed they could not afford a $4,000 apartment.

Taryn said major changes were needed: selling the house, finding a job, and possibly leaving LA. She has family back east and had looked at jobs in North Carolina, Atlanta, and Nevada. She said she doubted she could match her old pay. The entertainment industry was going through layoffs, and she cited recent cuts at Disney and Meta. Comparable roles she was seeing paid about $200,000 at best, with some AI-forward companies paying more. Newer hires at companies like Netflix weren't getting what she had earned. She was also widening her search outside entertainment.

Ramit broadened the point for listeners. He acknowledged the temptation to have little sympathy for people who used to earn a lot. But he argued that most people will lose a job at some point, that whole industries can be decimated, and that many people have built their lives around their current income. He said he sees this situation as a preview of what many people may face in the next 24 to 36 months as AI affects jobs. He posed the question: what do I do with the rest of my life if what I make now is the most I will ever make?

What they had cut, and the worst case they didn't want to discuss

Since the layoff, the couple had called the internet company for the lowest plan, downgraded their Netflix subscription, and been more careful with groceries. They had tried to get a temporary mortgage forbearance, but it hadn't gone through, so they were paying the mortgage from severance. They had also asked the family lenders to pause the monthly payments, which the family agreed to. The plan was to repay the loan in full when the house sold.

Asked about the real levers, they named selling the house, Taryn getting a job, and where they live. Melissa raised a complication: after four years building a six-figure business, why move for a job that might pay Taryn about what Melissa already makes in LA? They said they discussed it daily. Taryn was in talks with one company that would likely mean relocating to New York, which they suspected was even more expensive than LA.

Ramit asked what happens if the house doesn't sell for three months and Taryn doesn't find work. Taryn said Melissa avoids this conversation and tells her not to "put that energy out there." Melissa said that in her head the house would sell within 60 days. Ramit said he likes optimism but not delusion, and that with stakes this high, making a plan isn't bad energy. Pressed, Melissa said she would take on more clients and lower her rate. After that came living with family. Taryn's mother had even offered to move out so they could move into her house in South Carolina. Melissa had never said this aloud, but she was firmly against South Carolina. She clarified it wasn't about the family, whom she loves, but the place, "the humidity on my hair," though she said they would do it in an absolute worst case.

The question Ramit wanted them to ask

Ramit said the real question wasn't the job loss. It was: how did we get here, and what will stop us from getting right back here? After 20 years of debt, he said, simply selling the house and paying off debt would likely put them back in the same position in about two and a half years. He argued that Melissa's reluctance to discuss negative scenarios was itself one of the reasons they kept ending up in debt. Melissa said she wanted to stop the cycle.

She described the debt as the result of a house they couldn't afford, with everything else, including gas, groceries, and bills, going on credit cards. Ramit compared it to overflowing buckets: the housing bucket spilled into bills, which crowded out savings, investing, and guilt-free spending. Yet they kept spending. In his world, he said, a family with $50,000 of credit card debt simply doesn't eat out. Melissa explained that ordering in gave her a break from doing all the cooking. Taryn said her parents had terrified her about credit cards and that she knew she needed to step up. She added that both of them were exhausted, Taryn now home with the kids and Melissa working, so both gave in, even though "we know it's wrong."

The money scripts they brought from childhood

Taryn said her family rarely talked about money and rarely ate out, not because they couldn't afford it but because it was a special treat. She thinks this is partly why she loves eating out now. Her parents worked hard, paid for her schooling by putting the loans in her name and paying them off immediately to build her credit, and are doing well financially. They had questioned the house purchase. Taryn said she had been set on investing in Melissa's career and hadn't anticipated the costs of a house after years in the city.

Melissa remembered feeling her parents' stress over credit card debt. Both were big spenders, and when they divorced, she felt relief that selling their house would pay off their debt. Ramit pointed out the parallel with her current plan decades later. She also grew up with entrepreneur grandparents who had built a multi-million-dollar business, and she felt her parents always had support if they needed it. Her father has told her he's there if she really needs something. She said she doesn't want that help and considers it the worst case, because believing it's always there would stop her from changing.

Ramit asked whether she was religious. She is. Both grew up Catholic, and Melissa finished the phrase "God provides" with "something will always come along to help," and "let's pray on it" with "everything works out." Taryn said she also grew up Catholic but took a different lesson: you still have to earn it. Ramit said in a later aside that he hadn't predicted both were religious. He saw it as an example of how people with similar backgrounds can go in opposite directions, and how you can never predict which. Despite their different beliefs, he observed, both are avoidant in their actual money behavior.

On investing, Taryn said her grandmother had taught her to invest by matching whatever she put in, so investing fell to her. Melissa said investing felt like a foreign language and she didn't know where to start. Ramit held up his books and noted that free resources are at every public library. He said he didn't believe someone capable of a $300,000 job couldn't understand investing. Taryn admitted she put everything into her job and shut down at home, and that she hadn't changed because she knew Melissa would handle it. Ramit said people who behave in ways that don't make sense are often being subsidized by someone, such as a spouse or parents, and that if that support disappeared, they would change quickly.

"The controller and the bystander"

Asked about her parents' dynamic, Taryn said her mother runs the house and decides what they spend on, while her father is very easygoing. Melissa put it bluntly: Taryn "literally married her mom." Ramit said many people co-create the relationship they grew up with without realizing it.

He then made what he said might be a first for him: telling a couple they needed more room for silence. When Taryn made a major realization, her instinct was to explain and caveat it. Ramit argued that the real implications need space. Melissa is like her mother in this way. Her father's easygoingness is something she loves in him. And perhaps her own easygoingness contributed to $1.2 million of debt.

Melissa listed the messages she carried: debt is okay, everybody has debt, you'll get out somehow, even by selling a house, and God will provide. Ramit summarized the logic. If one-time windfalls like a house sale will bail you out, there is no need to manage money carefully day to day, and you deserve to enjoy yourself.

Asked to name their roles, Melissa called herself the controller and Taryn called herself the bystander. Both agreed Melissa was not controlling the money effectively. Taryn said she stood aside because it was easier, and because Melissa runs the house and has the final say. Melissa countered that on big purchases, Taryn is the one who decides. Ramit described watching them toss "the ball of responsibility" back and forth, each unwilling to hold it.

Taryn said she hadn't really internalized the problem while she was earning a lot, and that after the layoff they hadn't had the harder conversation because she wasn't emotionally ready. Ramit acknowledged how tough a layoff is but noted they hadn't had that conversation in 20 years. When Melissa said she thought that if they never bought a house again they wouldn't end up here, Ramit disagreed. At $4,000 a month in rent, they would be in debt within a year. He quoted a sign of his mother's: "trust in God, but lock your car." He recommended they see a therapist again, saying that recalibrating a relationship is among the hardest things to do, but possible.

Their rich life, and the loss behind the spending

Melissa described her rich life as traveling the world with their kids, including a three-week trip in 2028 to see a friend in Paris and visit Spain, Italy, or Portugal. She also wanted to be debt-free, keep spending quality time with the family, and eat out about once a week. Taryn named being debt-free first, then travel, date nights, and eating out without guilt. She said she didn't want a big house or a fancy car: "just want the debt gone."

Taryn then became emotional. Travel had been a grieving mechanism after they lost their daughter almost eight years ago, and she said much of their spending started after that. Life felt precious, and putting things on a credit card became "our therapy." Melissa added that it felt like "who knows if we'll be here tomorrow." Neither said they had clearly connected the loss to their spending before, beyond perhaps subconsciously. The conversation paused for a break.

In a later reflection, Ramit said he hadn't known about the loss until this point. He said it didn't explain everything, but it helped him see there was much more going on than eating out and a few unaffordable purchases. When he read their rich life back to them, Melissa asked to add food delivery about three times a week. Ramit said that was her choice to make.

Playing out the LA rental plan

The couple's path was to sell the house, which they expected to net about $250,000 after fees. Their realtor's strategy was to price it attractively and hope for bids over asking. They would pay off the pool-related loan and the family loan, walk away debt-free or close to it, and use any extra to secure a rental while Taryn was unemployed. Melissa would teach at other families' pools. Ramit said that was the question they should have asked before building a $200,000 pool. She charges about $2,000 per student for seven weeks, which he said takes a long time to recoup such an investment. It might even be cheaper to Uber to someone else's pool every time.

Childcare was the open question. It would cost $200 a day, four days a week, about $3,200 a month for their five kids, if Taryn worked full time. Ramit asked what would happen financially if they stayed in LA and rented for $4,000–$5,000. Melissa admitted they wouldn't have enough to save. Ramit said they were "setting yourself up to struggle again for the next five years" and described it as a kind of prosperity-gospel thinking: work hard and it will be provided.

He then modeled it. Replacing the $7,899 mortgage with $5,000 rent, lowering utilities, and setting debt payments at $1,000 still left $15,000 a month in costs, or 176%. Dropping insurance to $839, since their high HOA-related costs came from running the business at home, brought it to 165%. Adding Taryn's income, assuming she earned $100,000 and netted about $7,000 a month, brought it to 83%, which Ramit called too high but within striking distance. Adding $3,200 of childcare pushed it to about $18,000, or 103%. "That's the ball game," he said. Two minutes of planning showed a decade of stress. Even if his numbers were off by 10 or 25%, it wouldn't matter.

Melissa's first reaction was to ask how much rent would be elsewhere. Ramit said her mind was unconsciously arguing to stay in the comfort of LA. Her business had provided for them, he said, but "that chapter is over." They had not made LA work. They had over a million dollars of debt.

Nevada versus South Carolina

Taryn suggested a framework: find affordable places where Melissa could rebuild her business, then work out cost of living and what Taryn would need to earn. Ramit modeled Las Vegas, a place Melissa knew and where the weather suits swim lessons. He assumed about $3,000 rent for a three-bedroom, $150 utilities, $500 insurance, $1,000 in debt payments, groceries at $1,200 (their actual level), $3,200 childcare, $200 for kids' activities, $50 for subscriptions, and $350 for miscellaneous expenses. At first the fixed-cost figure looked like 55%, dropping to 50% with debt removed. Then the couple pointed out he was still using their current income. With Melissa's rebuilding business at a conservative $2,500 a month and Taryn at about $5,000 a month (roughly an $80,000 job), the figure became 119%, and 132% with debt payments added back. Their conclusion was that they couldn't afford rent.

Melissa asked, laughing, whether they were moving to South Carolina, and Ramit modeled it. He assumed $500 a month contributed to Taryn's parents instead of rent, no utilities, possibly one fewer car ($700 for car costs), groceries at $300 since her parents would share cooking, $250 for kids' activities, and $1,000 for childcare so they wouldn't lean entirely on the grandparents. Costs came to about $4,600 a month, or 62% of income. Taryn thought she might work for the school district through her mother's connections, maybe at $65,000–$80,000, possibly with a pension. That scenario left about $2,854 a month. Ramit said he would spend a small share and put the rest into savings and investments, which could eventually let them leave South Carolina and reach their rich life.

Before these numbers, Taryn had raised a serious non-financial concern. As a gay couple, she said, they live in a bubble in LA where they can raise five kids without being judged. The small town where her parents live still has "a lot of segregation," and that, more than the humidity, was her main reason for not wanting to return. She said it would be temporary and she wouldn't want it forever, but they would do it if they had to. Ramit said he hated that this even had to be a consideration and called it real. He framed his approach as starting with the numbers, then weighing the important non-financial factors. Taryn noted that her brother argues Charlotte, North Carolina, is much more progressive. Melissa had long been ready to leave LA, and they had stayed only for Taryn's job.

Taryn's reaction to the South Carolina numbers was that she felt they had failed, though "it makes sense and we got to do it." Melissa wondered what living with Taryn's parents would do to their marriage, doubted the parents would actually move out, and asked how long it would last and how they would "reenter society" after getting used to not paying rent.

A marriage with a mission

Ramit said their marriage needed a mission. He suggested reframing the move as a blessing: a family able to cut their rent to almost nothing, help with the kids, and give them space to build money skills they had so far proven unable to build. He called LA and New York "the Olympics of money." The mission would include clear milestones for how much to save, how much to invest, and how many consecutive months to sustain it before deciding the next step. He said he couldn't tell them what to do, but a reset couldn't happen "next to every freaking LA restaurant."

Comparing the options, Melissa said Vegas would mean starting from scratch, with no client base, possibly no job for Taryn, and moving costs likely going on credit cards, which she didn't want for "one more day." Taryn said she was ready to work, but her fourth-round opportunity was in LA or New York. Ramit said that might be viable later, once they had a buffer and healthier habits, but not now.

On the kids, the couple said their 12-year-old knew the house was for sale. They agreed that if nothing changed, their children would notice the stress and grow up absorbing the same lesson: debt is okay, you'll come out of it. Melissa said she was teaching them the opposite. Ramit said that was only in words, because they had no money to save. He suggested being honest with the 12-year-old about 20 years of spending without paying attention, not communicating, and why they were selling the house, and asking the whole family to help with a plan on the fridge. Kids love hearing their parents' mistakes, he said, and few parents share them because they lack the confidence to do so.

His concrete recommendations were to research jobs and pay, talk to Taryn's mother, and keep an open mind. He suggested naming the inner voice that wants to stay put; Melissa called it "Michelle." He gave Taryn a copy of his Dream Job program, noting that a high-paying remote job would make things much easier. He said that if she earned $150,000, anything above that would be gravy. They might also consider paying down the paused family loan if they could. His summary: "be decisive, move fast, and it's got to be different."

How they left, and Ramit's reflection

Melissa said what surprised her most was the possibility of South Carolina and seeing the numbers worked out after assuming selling the house would make everything fine. Taryn said she had believed the $5,000 rent and the end of loan payments would be enough, and learned "we really can't make this work." Ramit added that they hadn't even included moving costs, which he estimated at $5,000–$15,000. He said he rounded up at every choice to stay conservative. Taryn said she felt more stressed but clearer. Melissa said she felt stressed, confused, and still processing. Ramit advised her not to do the math in her head. Each partner should run the numbers independently at a computer and compare. And the bigger questions were whether they were willing to change where and how they live and to move from controller and bystander to partners.

In his closing reflection, Ramit said he took no pleasure in showing them their life would have to change, and that with five children the situation was "catastrophic." He believed they had been counting on the house sale to restore their old life. He noted that ordering delivery, which they included in their rich life, would not exist for now if they followed his suggestions. He said they could stay in LA, but he guaranteed they would be back in debt within five years. He listed what he saw as their mistakes: building the pool, not talking about money as partners, and not cutting expenses immediately after the layoff. He said the fastest way forward was a radical change with nothing of LA carried along.

Follow-ups

In follow-up videos, Melissa said the biggest surprise was how her childhood beliefs about money had carried into adulthood, and how large the overhaul needed to be. The short-term plan was to sell the house and live with family for three to four months while deciding whether to leave California. Taryn said she hadn't realized how severe things were and that they needed to stop making budgets they forgot two days later. Their immediate steps were selling the house, starting couples therapy, and evaluating options including her family in South Carolina or Melissa's family in Torrance.

Six weeks later, the house was still on the market. They had gone through their numbers and cut what they could, and they had moved a credit card balance to 0%. They had started couples therapy, which they said helped after the conversation rattled them both. Taryn said she would stop sitting on the sidelines: she would hold a weekly meeting on upcoming expenses and manage the monthly budget for groceries and school costs. She had landed a contract position with roughly six to eleven months of guaranteed work and was still looking for full-time work. Melissa planned to keep her swim business and explore remote assistant work as a side income for debt, savings, and investing. They were also considering moving in with family for a few months, or renting near relatives who had offered a year of childcare. They called the meeting a wake-up call and said they felt they were "just scratching the surface," but on the right track.

Don't want a big house. Don't want a fancy car. Just want the debt gone.

You took a $75,000 pay cut. You bought this house, but then you still decided to build a pool.

Yeah.

How much did the pool cost?

Like $120,000. That was just the pool.

Where does the money come from for all of these things?

Everything goes on the credit card.

Did you run math?

Wow. It got extremely silent in here. What is this number?

179%.

Which I believe may be the highest fixed cost number I've ever seen.

Oh no. You are drowning.

Yeah. I think in my head, if we don't buy a house again, we won't get into that situation.

But you will.

I just feel like we've failed.

The question that should consume you is how did we get here? And what's going to stop us from getting right back in here? And I'm not hearing much of that. It is just a matter of time until you run out of money. The clock is ticking.

What happens when you build your entire life around an income that suddenly disappears? Today I'm speaking with Melissa and Taryn. They're in their 40s. They live in Los Angeles with their five children. They have a net worth of over $700,000 and almost half a million dollars invested. But today, their fixed costs are at 179%. That means they are spending more than they make every single month.

Let's take a deeper look at the numbers in their Conscious Spending Plan, or CSP. And if you want my help to take control of your money, you can join my money coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching.

Assets, $1.4 million. Investments, $495,000. Savings, $50,000. Debt, $1.2 million, for a total net worth of $761,000. Their income, wow, is $11,900 per month. That income is wildly out of pace with the rest of their major expenses.

At first when you meet this couple, you think it's about a layoff and an unaffordable house and a $200,000 pool. But about halfway through our conversation, Melissa and Taryn share something I did not know coming in. Eight years ago, they lost a child. And I want to mention that now because this conversation becomes quite serious. It touches on grief and the loss of a child. And that may be difficult for some viewers to hear.

When they told me, their spending started to make a lot more sense. It helped me understand there was a lot more going on here besides eating out and credit cards and a few purchases they couldn't afford. So, now let's meet Melissa and Taryn.

Now, I understand that you recently experienced a major change in your finances.

Yes.

Can you walk me through what happened?

Yeah, I was laid off from my job and so obviously a huge hit financially but also emotionally. Netflix is an amazing company to work for. And so just gutted to not be there anymore, but unfortunately reorgs happen, things happen. But that definitely took a hit. I think we've always relied heavily on my steady income for the past 20-plus years.

Okay.

Yeah. Not the whole 20-plus years, but I was being paid very well. So, definitely took a huge hit.

How much were you making?

When I started out? Well, towards the end, when I say I was making well, it was probably $350,000.

Wow, that's a lot.

That's the peak. I didn't start at that, but I worked my way up to that over several years.

Then there was layoffs that happened about three years ago. I kind of knew things might be happening and my job may be impacted. So, I started looking for other roles within the company. And fortunately for me, I was able to find another role. However, it was a very different role. And so I took a $75,000 decrease in salary because I was no longer managing a team, that sort of thing. Still being paid very well. My salary was then $275,000. The last two, three years have been $275,000.

Can I ask a question? When you decided to switch roles internally and you took that $75,000 pay cut, did you adjust your household spending?

Probably not. No.

Well, I feel like when we bought the house we did because we knew buying the house was like—

Okay, wait, no, time out.

Okay.

We were renting at the time and we're like, we're in a weird spot with where we were renting because there was issues with the building. We had to move out, all this stuff. So we were like, what do we do? Do we buy a house and build a pool so I can teach and build my business?

Your business being?

I teach survival swim lessons to infants and children.

Okay.

So, we were like, let's get a house and build a pool that I can teach, because we couldn't find a house with a pool, and that way I can bring more money because I can make really good money. And so, that was our next plan of action.

When we bought the house, it was based on her original salary before the reorg and she took the decrease. So, we went into it like, cool, we can pay this mortgage, we'll be good. And then the reorg happened, the decrease in her salary happened, and that's when it started hitting us, when we got into the house, how much everything was really going to cost.

Had you bought the house before the reorg happened or after?

Didn't we sign off?

We literally signed the papers—

The day before.

The Monday confirming her salary and Thursday she got laid off when it closed.

Yeah.

So, the timing was like, "Okay, maybe this all happened because we're supposed to build the pool."

And we were like, let's invest in her career since mine is like, we don't really kind of know what's happening. I'm getting paid less.

But you took a $75,000 pay cut. You bought this house and now you're moving into it based on the old salary. But then you still decided to build the pool.

Yeah.

How much did the pool cost?

Like $120,000. That was just the pool.

What else is there?

Concrete, fencing that had to go around to build the pool.

How much?

Panel. Oh, we put in another hundred grand.

So $220,000. Should we just call it $250,000?

Yeah.

And this is after a $75,000 pay cut.

Yeah. Yes.

Okay. When did it start hitting you that you were financially in over your heads?

I think immediately. We knew what the pool would cost to build and I think we just weren't thinking about all the other things that were going to be added on after that. But then I also knew with my business that I'm like, "Oh, I can teach this many kids and make this much money," and she could be easily like and be home because I was a stay-at-home mom. I can go out and teach. I can do it when the kids are napping, whatever. I can make it early in the mornings when she's home before she goes to work, in the evenings when she's home from work. And so for that, I was like, "I can make the money. We'll just pay this off."

Did it work?

It worked. I built my business and it's great and it's booming. But then all these other things started happening with the house. It was like new AC—

Termites.

Termite, just little car problem, all the little—

Wait, don't skip over it. I love these. What else?

Our front gate, one of those electric gates. We put, what, I don't know, like $1,500 into that just recently because it broke. We had a leak, so we had to have mold remediation. We had to fix the leak. God, what else we have?

Oh, the hedges. Yeah, these beautiful hedges that cost like $2,000 to maintain. And there's a big hill in the back of our yard that has to be, for fire purposes, with like—

Where does the money come from for all of these things?

Credit cards.

Really?

Yeah. A lot of it.

You mentioned that immediately after getting the house, you realized you were in over your financial head. And so what happened next?

We ended up taking a personal loan from some family.

Okay.

To pay for all these extra things, the concrete, the fencing, the electrical panel, all the things that go to building the pool so that she could then start her business.

How much did they loan you?

It was $100,000.

Okay.

Yeah. And the deal was they wanted it paid off in five years. So, our payments were like $2,300 a month. So, that on top of the mortgage on top of everything else, it was just so a lot.

Did you run math?

Wow. It got extremely silent in here.

I don't like the word.

At what point did you run like $2,300 plus the price of the mortgage plus—

Yeah. We put it in our budget.

Yes. And I knew I have to bring in this much just to make ends meet. My business has to bring in this much per month, which is $4,000 a month to help us just meet our bare minimum.

But we're not saving. We're not—

We're not saving. There's no emergency funds.

So was it feasible? You could do it feasibly without working like 10 days a week?

Oh, for sure. I teach March through November because that's the warmer, non-rainy kind of—we have great weather here, so I'm fortunate to do that.

That's what you did. You were working. You were also working, Taryn, with that $75,000 pay cut but still making a very high salary. And how were things going at that point?

Okay. But we still know we have debt. I just hate the weight of—I mean, who likes it, honestly? But I just know that I feel like we weren't contributing to chipping away at any of the debt.

We hate having to ask for money. That is the very last thing we want to do. I want to get them paid off as soon as possible. I don't want that. I don't want to be indebted in that way. So I think it's always frustrating and we haven't been able to travel. We love to travel. We love to go out and have nice meals and we just haven't been able to do any of that.

Inside your household, when you would talk about money at that point, what were the conversations like?

She was more stressed and I was like, "Listen, everyone has debt."

So, is that true?

I grew up thinking it was true.

Okay.

I did not.

I think more people have debt than you really realize and no one talks about it. So, I think it's a very shameful thing. And I'm just very open. So, I'm like, this is just what it is. And I think she was like, "But I want to pay it off. I'm stressed and I don't." And I'm like, "I get that, but we just built a pool. That's not going to get paid off in a year, and we have other loans that we have to pay off first." So, it was stress and then it would dissipate and the conversation would end.

How many kids and how old are they?

Five kids. A 12-year-old, almost six-year-old, four-year-old, and then twin two-year-olds.

Wow, cool. Okay, that's amazing. Were they experiencing any aspects of what you were going through with the financial stress? Did they pick up on it?

No.

Probably not.

I don't think so.

Maybe our oldest occasionally just because maybe we weren't going out as much, but it's not something she's ever said or expressed.

How long have you two been together?

We met in high school, but we weren't together right away. So, we've known each other for—

1996.

Did you all grow up in the area?

No. Military brats. We went to high school together for two years and then she moved her senior year to California.

Okay.

And so, then once I graduated college, I used her to have a place to live out here.

Got it.

So, she used me to get out here to be in entertainment.

Okay.

But married 18 years.

Married.

Married 18 years. Okay. Got it. Okay. Cool. I read your application and there's so many things that stood out to me. One of them, I'd like to read it back to you, Melissa. You wrote in the application, "We are in major debt, over $300,000 worth. In the past, when we've gotten out of debt, it feels great, but then we slowly get back into it." Can you tell me about this cycle of debt that you get in and out of?

I don't even know how it happens. I think even when she was making the most and we were doing really well, we would still have some credit card debt because we would like to travel or we'd like to go out to eat. I was a big shopper and it was very tied to emotionally shopping. I know some people emotionally eat. I emotionally shop. So if I'm stressed out, I want to go and just spend more.

How many years have you been in and out of debt?

How old am I? 46. So, since I was 18.

All right.

I got my first credit card.

Yeah. Okay.

I feel like ever since we've been together, there's been some—

She never came in with debt.

I never came in with debt.

I had—

It's always kind of been this lingering thing that I just feel like won't go away. It stresses me out. I just want it to stop. I want it to go away. I would love to be putting those monthly credit card payments into our kids or investments or traveling, going out. And so it's just stressful because I just feel like we come close so many times, and then I don't know, it just doesn't happen for whatever reason.

And Melissa, how do you feel about the cycle of debt?

I hate it. I want to stop it, which is I think part of the reason why I signed up for this because I'm like, I want to stop the cycle. It's like insanity.

What role do each of you play in the debt cycle? Melissa?

I think I probably control it. I contribute to it. I'm the shopper and I make most of the decisions for the family and what's spent. So in that regard, I'm the one in charge of it.

Okay.

And then she just kind of goes along.

So I contribute by not contributing. Yeah. I guess I don't say no. I don't flag. I think I just—

You don't say no. Why not if you're stressed out about money?

Yeah. Good question. I trust her decisions when it comes to how much food we need for groceries and what supplies and things our kids need, the activities. I think I've always just been the one who's like, I just make money. And then I'm very easygoing and it's only when we have big purchases that I put my foot down.

It sounds very familiar when I talk to straight couples. Word for word identical. "I just earn money." That's what men say. "I just focus on earning more money. She's really good at managing the household." That's very common. And "putting my foot down," that's very common for men to say, but most of the time, "I trust her."

Yeah.

Have you heard that before? Have you ever heard men talk like that?

Yeah. I think I heard it on your podcast.

Uncanny, right? It's like half the episodes are saying the exact same words. I'm just struck by this. I appreciate it. I want to understand more about what's going on here.

I want to take a look at the numbers. Taryn, can you read off the words in bold and the number next to it for this entire box, please?

Assets, $1.4 million and some change. Investments, $495,000 and some change. Savings, $50,000. Debt, $1.2 million and some change.

Total net worth?

Total net worth, $761,000.

Okay.

Ouch.

Thank you. What do you think about those numbers?

I don't like those numbers at all.

What do you feel when you read them out?

Anxiety and stress for my kids and if we were to get hit by a bus on the way home and what that looks like for them.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Melissa, what about you?

I've seen them so many times I just glaze over.

Ah, so they don't really connect with you. Do you feel anything?

Mm—

Okay. And if I were to ask you, what do these numbers mean to you? What would you say?

I don't want to deal with any of it. It's just an annoyance that's just there.

What I'm seeing is the person, quote, "in charge of the money" in the household doesn't really want to deal with it.

Mhm.

You're kind of annoyed by it. It's just a nuisance to you. But you are the one who the two of you have decided, consciously or unconsciously—

That you, Melissa, are in charge of the money.

Right. Like, what if it was child care, for example? These little kids are kind of annoying, and it's kind of like a nuisance to me, but anyway, I'm in charge of the child care. We all know it's absurd, but with money it's actually surprisingly common.

You make it sound so simple when you say it that way.

It's hard to be good at something if you—

You don't care.

If you don't care. And sometimes the answer is that person maybe shouldn't be in charge of it. For example, let's say somebody doesn't care about cleaning the mirror in the bathroom. Okay, maybe they just don't need to be in charge of that, and the other person can, or you can hire somebody. Fine. But certain things like child care, you actually just need to find a way to care. That's it. Or money, both partners just need to find a way to care and to get good because—

Both.

Both, because this isn't working.

It's not. Look—

Can I just give it to her? Because she cares.

Well, okay, that's an interesting question. You could. Why haven't you?

Because she turns it around on me and she's like, but you care so much. Like, you—

Don't trust me with it.

I would trust you with it. I feel like now that we have these numbers, it's something she could work with because she actually knows what they are now. They're in a place that's very concrete. Before it was just kind of very vague, but now she can see this is specifically our debt.

To be candid, these are one, two, three, four, five numbers. They take like 10 minutes to gather. So considering that you've been in and out of debt for 25 years, I don't think gathering five numbers is the problem.

I know.

It's not. Part of what we're going to do today is we're going to pull on some threads and try to get really honest. All right, there's something else going on here. Let's continue with the CSP. Let's talk, Melissa, about the combined gross monthly income. What's that number?

11,900.

Okay. So you're making, let's just call it 12K. It's 144K a year. Why are there no taxes taken out?

With her job and my business expenses, the way our taxes would come out is we'd end up getting money back.

Got it. We're at 12,000 bucks a month roughly from Melissa. And then $900 a month. Is that from you, Taryn?

Yeah, that's for unemployment. So that's just where I'm at currently.

Got it. And this is quite a striking difference because it used to be like 20,000 a month.

Yeah.

Let's go on to the fixed cost number.

Oh.

What is this number, please?

That number is terrible. I already know it's supposed to be a—

Lot of explanation before hearing the number. Read the number.

179%.

All right. 179%. What does that tell you?

We're bleeding money.

Yeah. Just looking at this number, can you cut expenses to solve the problem?

No. No.

This is not about we spent too much at brunch, right?

Or we bought too many toys.

It is not that. It is a structural problem that requires radical change right there. What this tells me is when I see a couple with this, which I believe may be the highest fixed cost number I've ever seen—

Oh no, that's terrible.

There is a structural change that probably happened because people don't typically just overspend into 179%. That would be the job loss. It tells me that the person or couple that has this is really stressed out about money. Those three things. Check, check, check.

Mhm.

All right, let's continue. Oh, and one last thing. It is just a matter of time until you run out of money. The clock is ticking. Do you know how long until you are out of money?

Well, this is a hard part. I'd say three months max.

Agreed.

We already have, in my mind, because really—

Well, there's money that we owe. Yeah. We're getting by because we're fortunate again to be able to get a loan from some family. We have the credit cards, my severance, but it's running out. So I guess technically, we have some money in our account.

But I feel like it's not ours because we owe it to other people. We owe it to credit cards.

Three months until you run out of money with five kids is no joke. What has changed, if anything, in your household as the clock has gotten closer to midnight?

Well, we just listed our house.

Oh.

Last week.

Okay.

Yeah.

Because I was like, we got to get out of this. We can't stay here.

To your earlier question, when did we start to feel it? When we started building a pool, even when I had a job and we were getting by, we still were feeling it because we didn't have that extra money for savings, that extra money to go out, all that.

It just felt like we were in over our heads with that house.

But this isn't we don't have money for savings. This is we are literally running out of money.

So this was the push we needed. I think me losing my job is like, okay, no-brainer now. We were talking about it. Now it's like we have to do it. We obviously can't afford this house.

Okay. All right. Let's continue going on. Investments are at zero, savings are at zero, and then I've never seen this number before. 79% is what's left over, or negative 9,300 a month. You broke my CSP. So what do you think about the CSP, looking at it?

No, it's crazy. We're at a point where we talk about selling our house, but also because she doesn't have a job yet, we're going to have to rent.

Mhm.

But what are we even looking at in terms of a budget?

What's the answer to that question?

In my head, I know the fixed cost should be at 60%, housing should be like 20 to 30%, like 4,000, 4,500 a month. That's what I'm finding, like a three-bedroom.

And do you think that you could afford that?

I think in my optimistic mind, yes. I think she's going to get a job and it's going to be okay. That's where my head goes.

It's interesting, when I ask people an affordability question, they never use numbers in their answer. Never. Can you afford a $3,000 mattress? Well, back is the most important part of your body. I go, "What the does that have to do with the A-word, affordability?" When I ask an affordability question, you should pull out a calculator, but we answer with almost anything other than math. Affordability is purely about math. Can you afford it?

Okay, the numbers in my head, I—

I'm not talking about your head. We have the numbers. Look at them. 11,900. And you're going to pay taxes on that, by the way. So your net is, let's just say 9,000 to be generous. Watch this. What does your fixed cost number just jump up to?

Like 100—

236%.

Yeah.

My CSP is about to explode right now. I never saw a number with a two in front of it. Now I'll ask you again. Can you afford a $4,000 a month apartment?

No.

No. There's no way. We could run the math and show you, but spending 45 or so percent of your money on housing with a family, when inevitably things will come up, is impossible. You can't do it. Taryn, I want to check in with you. When you look at the CSP, what do you make of it?

Major changes need to happen for us, which again, I think we tried to start with that on our own.

Okay.

But we need someone like you to help us. But making the decision to sell the house obviously needs to happen.

Yeah.

Finding a job needs to happen. We're also open to relocating outside of LA.

Oh, really?

Mhm.

Where would you go?

I have family back east. I'm looking at jobs in North Carolina, Atlanta, where you're looking in Nevada. Big changes need to happen.

Okay.

Mhm. And this is good.

To your question, looking at that sheet and how do I feel? I was very fortunate for the 11 years that I had at Netflix, a company that treated me so well. Amazing benefits, amazing pay. Sadly, I don't know that I'll necessarily land the same kind of a thing. I think the industry is not great right now. There's tons of layoffs happening. A thousand people were just laid off at Disney. Meta just did some layoffs. It's just all over.

Let me stop you right there because I know it's tempting to go, boohoo, the people who used to make tons of money aren't making quite as much money anymore. Join the club. And so I get the temptation to look at people who used to have a ton of money, they don't have it anymore, and go, "You suck. So what? We've been here the whole time." But I want you to know that at some point in your career, you or your partner will probably lose your job. How are you going to react when that happens? What if that entire industry is decimated and you can never make the amount of money you used to make? What if you'd built a plan for your life based on the amount you were making? Most people do. And what would you do if you were faced with the question of never earning that much money again?

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When there's layoffs in the industry, what happens to you and to the people that were working there?

For me personally, I've told Melissa I'm open to not working in the industry anymore. I have an amazing broad set of skills that I've gained during my time at Netflix that could be applicable anywhere else. And so I'm expanding my search to jobs outside of entertainment.

Do you think you can make the same amount you made there?

Honestly, I'm doubtful of that. I'm not saying it's impossible. I do think in general there's a lot of rightsizing that's happening in companies like Netflix. I know that I was being paid very well. I was there for a long time, but I know people coming in now are not making that same amount. And even the jobs I'm looking at that are very similar just don't pay anywhere near what I was making.

What would be an example? Like if you were making 275 and you're looking at comparable jobs, what are they paying?

I'm lucky if they're paying like 200,000. I've had to expand my search now to even look below that because I'm not seeing the same. There are some tech companies, I think a lot of AI-forward companies and stuff, that are paying on the higher side above 200,000. And so I'd be very fortunate to maybe land something there. But again, we're still living in LA and it's still not making what I was making before. Obviously, with big changes and renting instead of owning and all those things, hopeful I can make an amount that would allow us to potentially stay here. But she's never been married to staying in LA. We've always only stayed because of my work.

Okay. I'm glad that you put the house on the market. That's a big change.

Yeah.

And I think that that needed to happen. So I'm really happy to hear you're willing to make some big, bold changes.

100%.

That's what it's going to take.

Yeah. Okay. What changes have you made in your spending after losing more than half of your income?

I immediately called the internet company, like, what's the lowest we can go? Got a lower Netflix subscription. But it just feels like that's just pennies. It's something, right?

We were trying to get a forbearance, a temporary forbearance on the mortgage, but she went through all these hoops, and it was a whole thing. We haven't been able to get it pushed through yet. So we've just been paying it with the severance. We've been really more conscientious about grocery shopping and what we're spending to try to bring that number down. We asked the family, "Can we stop paying that monthly amount?"

Yeah, that actually was a big one.

That was a big one. Because we think when we sell the house, we'll pay them off. They'll just be done.

That's the goal.

Let's talk about what levers do you have to stop the bleeding? Not the trickle, but the bleeding.

Selling the house. I feel it. That's the big one.

That's it.

Me getting a job. Her getting a job.

Yep. And where you live?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But the other thing with that is I've built my business now for four years, really built it up.

Mhm.

To a place where I'm making six figures.

Mhm.

And it's like, what's the cost of moving for a job that she could be making the same amount I'm already making here?

Mhm. Have you all discussed this or decided on what to do?

It's a daily conversation. It's like, where are you applying? What does it look like? Does it make sense to move if you get that for that amount based on what I have here? I'm willing to do it if it makes sense.

I am at least talking to one company. It would be likely relocation, but to New York. And so it's like, I don't even, that feels more expensive than LA. And then for her business, does that make sense? It's like, I don't, there's a—

Possibility that there could be potential for me to stay in LA with the role, if I even get it.

That's my pessimistically optimism.

So, how do you think about this? If what you're doing right now, you got the house on the market, you're applying for jobs. What if this goes on for two months, three months, four months? What happens?

I've told her she should continue to work with the mortgage company to try to process the forbearance, so we at least have that set up. If after May we still have the house and the mortgage is still there, we should still go through with it.

I guess worst case would be what? We would foreclose on the house and then move in with family for temporary. I don't know.

Yeah.

But I'll do this. I'll do this. I'll do that. I'll do whatever I need to to keep it going and keep us under the house while we need to.

She definitely doesn't like talking about it. She's like, "Nope, I don't want to put that out there. That's not an option. That's not happening. We're not doing that."

No, in my head it's very much going to be sold under 60 days. That's just what's happening.

I like optimism. I like it about certain things. I'm optimistic. I don't like delusion.

And the stakes are too high to not have a plan B because you really could be in a bad situation. Let's just play it out for a second. I don't believe in putting bad energy out. I believe in making a plan. Let's say the house doesn't sell for at least three months. Let's say that, Taryn, you're not able to find a job. What happens then?

I'm working more. I'm taking on private clients that I normally wouldn't. Lowering my rate to take on more students to teach.

Still can't cover it.

Living with family. Yeah. But then we sell the house.

I'm trying to get you to really—

I know, because then I'm thinking, well, God, by then I'd hope we'd sell it. The worst case scenario, I think in my head, if we lowered it, we'd pay off the house and the pool loan. We would have nothing left if we're talking bare minimum.

Okay. And then what do you do? Where are you in that situation?

I think then we would move.

If we hit worst case scenario, we probably would maybe move to South Carolina or something.

Yeah, literally, because it's way cheaper to live there.

Okay. You have family there?

Yeah.

Would they let you move in?

My mom said, "You guys could move in." She's like, "We'll move out, but you can move in."

Wait, that's amazing.

Yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah.

Did you seriously consider that?

We would literally do that if we had—

Okay, so she hasn't said this out loud to me because in her mind she's like, "I'm never living in South Carolina. I am not."

Not by choice. That's not where I want to live. I love my family dearly. We're super close. It's not them, it's South Carolina. You've not seen the humidity on my hair. I cannot live there. But yeah, worst case, if we absolutely had to, of course we'd move in with my parents.

But you're also so positive. I feel like I'm not allowed to say those things.

No, we can have a backup plan for sure. I think I don't go to the worst case scenario.

I always go to the worst case scenario. She does not. She's like, "It's not even going to happen. I don't want to put that out there." She says that to me all the time. "Don't even put that energy out there."

I don't want that. I don't want that energy out there.

Don't put that energy out there. But in my head, that's what keeps me up at night.

Energy is valid for sure, but we always have to make a plan. What I want to understand here, it's not just about the job loss because that obviously is a huge driver of what's going on here, but you all told me you've been in debt for 20 years.

Yeah.

It is not about this job. And so the real question, the question that should consume you, is how did we get here? And what's going to stop us from getting right back in here? You told me that in your application.

Yeah.

We've been in debt before. And it feels good when we pay it off and then we end right back up in it.

Yeah.

And I'm not hearing much of that. The whole fact, Melissa, that you mentioned, "I don't want to talk about that potential negative stuff. That puts bad energy." That's actually one of the reasons that you've ended up in debt. So, the simple stuff to do here is, yeah, sell the house, pay off the debt. That'll be nice. But y'all will end up right back in this in two and a half years if you don't actually look at what's truly going on here at the root cause level. Which level do you want to go to? We can stay at the sell the house level or we can go to the—

I want to stop the cycle.

Okay.

How do we do that?

Great. We can work with that. Tell me about the debt. What is the debt made up of?

It's the fact that we couldn't afford the house that we're in and everything else goes on the credit card. It's the gas, groceries, every other bill goes on the credit card.

Yes, I agree. Everything flows over there and it's almost like the bucket of money for your housing is too small and so that's overflowing, and it's overflowing into the next bucket, which is typically bills. And that's overflowing now and it's crowding out any room for savings, investing, even guilt-free spending. But the thing is, you're still spending it.

Right.

Going out to eat when you have $50,000 of credit card debt. Not in my world.

Yeah.

No way. Have you ever considered that, Melissa? Just saying we're not doing that.

Yeah.

I want to speak for you.

Yes.

Yes. And it's because she doesn't want to cook. So when I get tired of doing all the cooking, I'm like, "Can we just order something, make it easy?" So it's one of those things where it's taking off something from my plate to just have a peaceful night.

Wow.

Yeah.

Was that supposed to work on me?

No, but I—

Understand. But a family that's in $50,000 of credit card debt, it's just a simple answer. They just don't eat out. Done. I don't know. I'm just thinking about how I grew up and it's just not even a question. We just don't do it. What do you think about that?

Well, I agree with that. Because I think, me growing up, my parents terrified me of credit cards. They're like, "You're spending money you don't have. You only have a credit card for emergencies. Your car breaks down and you, 500, you need to fix it, whatever." And then when I got together with Melissa, it was just very different. She had some debt and it was just like, she's a very hard worker and she wants to enjoy life. You only live once and you want the things you want.

And like I said, she runs the house. I need to step up more. I know that. There's a lot on her shoulders and I think at the end of the day, she does some of these little things, it just feels good. She works hard. She deserves it, too. But we're now at a place where we have kids. It's different. It's exhausting having five kids. We love them to death, but I can't stand cooking. It's the bane of my existence.

And I'm with the kids all day now because I'm not working. A lot of schlepping back and forth, school things, and this and that. And then the last thing I want to do is cook a meal. And the last thing she wants to do from working all day is cook a meal. And we both give in. We know we shouldn't, but we did because we were exhausted and it was easy. But that adds up and we know it's wrong.

Yeah. Taryn, what do you remember about your family saying around money when you were growing up?

It's weird. I don't feel like we talked about it a lot. We rarely went out to eat, but it wasn't because we couldn't afford it. It was just that was a special treat. When we went out, it was for a birthday or whatnot. So, it always was exciting to go out to eat. It's partly why I love going out to eat now because we just didn't go out a lot as a kid.

So, nothing ever negative. I don't remember them fighting about money. We didn't really talk about it. We didn't live lavishly, but we lived a good life. We took trips. We got great gifts. They taught me hard work ethic. My parents work very hard. They earned their money and they spend it on experiences and family things and fun.

They teach you anything about money growing up?

I was fortunate they paid for my school, but they put it in my name and then paid off the loans right away so that I would be set up for success with good credit score and stuff like that. And so they talked about that. I will clarify, my parents were not all about us buying this house. They definitely said, "I don't know if you should."

What did you say?

I was very hung up on, I feel like we wanted to take this moment to invest in Melissa's career and we need a pool to do it. We tried to find a place with a pool and we couldn't. And we felt really confident that if we had a pool, we could really build her business, which we have. She's doing a kick-ass job with her business. Has built a great clientele in our area. And so that we got from it. Obviously, that's not going to pay the bills right now.

And in the beginning, I didn't know all these extra costs. We lived in the city for years. The last thing I was thinking about is that it's going to be a couple grand to shave the hedges so often and to clear the hill, and termites, and the AC, things like that. We don't have to deal with that stuff in the city. So I was like, "I hear you respectfully, but I think this is our best option."

How much will you make when you sell the house? Ballpark.

I think if we sell it for the amount that we're hoping to, that it could go for, walking away. No, I think it was $250,000.

$250,000?

Yeah.

That's after all fees and everything.

Okay. That's a lot. And does your realtor or the person you're using to sell the house, what do they think you're going to get?

The strategy of this is to come in at a price that people aren't going to be like, but they'll come in and they'll look at it and they'll be sold on the place. And get over asking is the goal.

Got it. Taryn, are your parents still alive? Are they still together?

They're still together. Still alive in South Carolina.

And how are they doing financially?

Great.

Good. Melissa, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

Both my parents, I just remember feeling their stress because I remember hearing about their credit card debt and they were both big spenders. And I remember when they divorced, feeling a weight for them because I knew they were going to be able to sell this house that they had and pay off their debt.

Oh.

I know.

This sound familiar?

That does sound familiar.

Fast forward 30 or 40 years.

Okay.

We had a very good upbringing. We didn't go out to eat a lot because that was always special if we did, but we didn't lack for anything. Also, when you're in the military, you have a lot of resources that are free, so it's not like you're paying a lot. So, it's a different lifestyle. I also came out of it with grandparents who are entrepreneurs and built this multimillion-dollar business. I think my parents always had support if they needed it.

Ah.

And so in my mind, I feel like we would have support if we needed it.

Are your parents—

My parents are divorced.

And how are they doing financially?

They're good.

Uh-huh.

But I feel like that's always an option.

Where does this idea you have that they will always be there to help you? What's behind that?

Because my dad has said, "If you need, I'm here if you really need something."

Do you need help right now?

No, because I don't want it. I feel like that's the worst case scenario. And I don't want it because I think in my mind, if I always think that, then it's always there and then I'm not going to really change my habits.

You're not religious, right?

I am. Yeah. We're Catholic. Yeah.

Ah. And you grew up religious.

Mhm. We both grew up Catholic and God provides.

Yes. That is a very common phrase. How do you think that your Catholicism, especially growing up, changes your interpretation of money today?

I don't even know. Honestly, I haven't even thought about it.

Let's think about it. God provides. So, finish the end of that sentence.

Something will always come along to help.

Okay. What else?

I'm a little bit different when it comes to—again, I'm more of the pessimistic. Her family's very much like, "Just got to pray on it, got to do this." Yeah. But I don't think that's going to—

Let's pray on it.

Pray on it. Yeah.

So, finish the end of the sentence. Let's pray on it, so that when—

Everything works out.

Got it. Probably, I'm willing to bet you grew up with 10,000 examples like that. "It will be okay. God will provide. Let's pray on it." And that's pervasive, right? It shapes your view of the way the world is. And it's interesting that you also grew up Catholic. It's different. You're like, "God provides, but I don't believe it."

Well, you got to still earn it. I don't think God's just gonna—like, to me, we were raised Catholic, but we're not crazy Bible thumpers and stuff. There's just a lot of tradition and stuff that we love about it. But my parent was very much more like, "You work hard." And even in this position now, my mom's sending me listings to work in the school district. She's like, "Nobody ever thinks about that. You don't have to just be a teacher. There's other jobs in the school district. There's great benefits and there's hundreds on the site. Take a look."

I didn't really predict that one, that they are both religious. I was starting to get curious. This is why I asked Melissa, "You're not religious, are you?" Because there were certain elements that were speaking to me, this idea of, "Good things will come." And the minute she said, "Oh, yeah, I'm religious," I was like, "Really?" But what surprised me even more was Taryn growing up religious.

And to me, this actually is just a perfect example that people grow up with different belief systems. Sometimes they grow up poor, sometimes they grow up wealthy, and often they will go one direction or another. They will be hyper-frugal or they'll spend everything they make. But the key insight is you can never predict it. So in this case, look at that. The two of them grew up religious. One of them goes, "God will provide." The other one goes, "I don't really believe that. I'm just worried about money." But interestingly, when it comes down to their actual money behavior, both of them are pretty avoidant.

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How do the two of you reconcile this different way of looking at the world?

She's also a hard worker, though. I'm not saying she's not, just to clarify.

Well, I also think you leave out the part, her growing up with her family. They didn't really teach her about money. They said what you should and shouldn't do, but I had a grandma who bought stock for me, and she said, "Any amount you give me, I'll match." And so I grew up knowing a little bit about investing. And so I think in our relationship it's fallen to me to think about that kind of stuff and invest, because she's always like, "You know it better."

They taught me about savings and stuff, but I think when we talk about investments specifically and stock, to me that feels like a foreign language. I want to invest and do the things, and I just don't even know where to start to learn that.

Hold on. You don't know where to start learning about investing?

This is why we're here.

Can we get in tight on these? Look at these two books. If only there were books that were available for free at every public library in America.

She doesn't read. Maybe.

What is that, though? Because you're obviously successful enough to have had a $300,000-a-year job. So I don't believe that you just don't get investing.

I don't put the effort there. I put so much into the job that I have that when I come home, I shut down in that way, and I'm not as on top of it, which sucks for her because then she's the one who has to be super on top of it at home.

Why haven't you tried to change that?

Probably because I know she'll do it.

Yes.

And yeah, I think I've leaned heavily on her for that.

People often behave in really peculiar ways, and you look at it, you go, "Rationally, that doesn't make sense. Logically, it doesn't make sense." And you keep digging, and then you discover often, not always, but often they're subsidized in some way. There is somebody else there taking care of things. And it could be a wife, it could be parents who send money. There's something going on that allows people to often act in peculiar ways.

Just to put a really fine point on it, not to be dark about this, but if you got hit by a bus, you would change very quickly.

Yeah.

Can we agree?

I think about that all the time.

It stresses me out so hard.

Melissa, what happened as you got older? As you became a teenager with money in your family, anything changed then?

We had to put ourselves through college. So I was like, "Let me get through college. Let me get through it fast," because I was working two serving jobs to put myself through. And then I got straight into the workforce.

Do your parents have any input on your finances or the both of your finances?

No. We talk to them about it. We'll go to them for advice and stuff, but no.

What'd they say?

What does my mom say? Don't use credit cards, don't eat out. All the obvious things.

All that stuff. But she was also someone who was like, "You should buy a house."

Do you tell her now the situation with us?

Yeah. Now I'm like, "Yeah, it sucks. We bought a house."

What did she say?

She's like, "Well, I don't know. It's still good. There's still money in it." And I'm like, "Yeah, but we were already in over our heads."

It's quite amazing that all the people who were so loud, vociferous about, "You need to buy a house," then the minute it doesn't go right, they all kind of vanish, and they're like, "I don't know. I mean, I guess it depends." Like, what the— I bought this house because you told me to.

Oh, because it's old, because it's an old house.

Yeah. Also because you did not run the numbers as well.

Yes.

Okay. How do each of you think that you are bringing the money messages you grew up with to this relationship? Taryn?

Work hard, play hard.

Okay. Work hard. Yeah. What else?

And financially specific?

Yeah.

Did your mom pay attention to money?

Yeah, my mom. Yeah, she runs the house.

Think there's anything there that you're bringing here?

Maybe I leaned on their support. I knew things would get taken care of.

Did your dad pay attention to money?

I wouldn't say that he doesn't, but I think he—my mom handles all the finances.

Is Melissa the equivalent of your mom when it comes to money?

In how she thinks of money?

She's the one who manages it day to day.

Oh, yes. I would say my mom is the one who decides what they spend on. She talks to my dad about it, but yeah.

Mhm. And so what does that make you?

My dad.

And your dad's relationship with money was what?

Very easygoing. Trust. It's the same.

It's the same thing.

It's the same. It's the same thing.

She literally married her mom.

So many of us co-create what we grew up with, and we don't realize it. Did you realize that?

No.

Till now.

Not till now.

Not like that. Yeah.

Just think about it.

Yes. More clearly now.

Yeah.

Some aspects, yes.

I think that there's probably more room for silence in your relationship. It's crazy I'm saying that. I don't think I've ever said that to a couple in my life, but I think that sometimes you diffuse the potency of what you are discovering by talking. You just made a massive realization, and your first tendency was what?

To talk about it.

Explain it.

To explain it, to caveat it. "Well, it's actually about this, but it's not about that." And now you all forget what just happened. The central point of what you just discovered is massive. I have co-created the relationship that my parents had in the financial area. Holy. First of all, how'd that happen? Second of all, what are the implications? Because Melissa is not like my mom in this way, but in that way she is. And in fact, didn't we once joke about this a couple of years ago? And so if that makes her the mom, then my dad was easygoing, which I love that about him. And I'm easygoing, but has my easygoingness contributed to us being in $1.2 million of debt? You cannot do that while talking. You can only do that in silence if both of you give it the space.

Mhm.

Something I would encourage you to practice and work on. Okay. Melissa, what messages about money from your childhood do you bring to this relationship?

That debt is okay.

Everybody has debt.

Everybody has debt. You'll get out of it somehow. By selling a house if you have to, which is crazy that it takes that to do that.

Forty years later, same thing.

Yeah.

When they sold their house, they were able to pay off debt. Now you're in the situation. You sell off a house, hopefully pay it off. What else? Who will provide? God will provide.

God will provide.

So since God will provide and you get these one-time episodic sources of income like selling a house, there's no real need to manage money carefully day to day.

Mhm.

In fact, I deserve to have a nice time and spend money. And what about the dynamic, the two of you? You're the one who—

Manages it all.

Manages the money.

Spends it all. Runs a household.

And your partner?

Well, I used to make money, but now—

I know. Well, now—

Now I'm the child carer.

Now she's like the nanny. No, she's a stay-at-home mom.

That's true. Both of you have oscillated between who makes more and not, which is normal. That's actually quite common. But in the dynamic, when the two of you talk about money and when you practice money, what is the role that each of you plays?

I'm the controller of it.

Yes, good. That's a good word. You are the controller of it. Do you control money effectively in your family?

No.

Agreed. And Taryn, you are the—

Bystander, I would say.

You agree?

Yes.

I think that's true. I think those are actually very powerful words. The controller and the bystander. In a way, it's no surprise that you have gotten into debt. You have somebody who loves to spend money—you have admitted that—controlling the money, but you don't really like looking at it. In fact, when I put those numbers up, you were visibly uncomfortable. You're like, "I don't want to look at this. I want it out of here." So that's the controller. And then the bystander for a long time makes the money and then goes—

That's my job.

That's my job. I'm done. You take care of it. In fact, you're so good at this, even though you both admit that you're not that good at this. This is very classic. What do you make of this assessment?

That she needs to be the controller?

Maybe a different way to put it is, "I, Melissa, am not functioning effectively as a controller today." We don't know what the solution is yet, but we certainly know this is not working.

Mhm.

Would you agree?

Yeah.

Okay. What do you got, Taryn?

I think it needs to be more of a team effort. I need to step it up more, be more vocal.

Why are you bystanding?

Easier.

Yeah. True. What else?

She runs the house, so I feel like she has that authority to decide how things should go. I can give my opinion, but she may not like it. And then at the end of the day, it's like, "Well, no, this is what we're doing."

She's the one who says, "This is what we're doing"?

With certain things, yeah, I would say.

Who says it with money?

Probably more you. Again, it's only big, big things.

I feel like if I'm watching what's happening right now, I'm putting on my infrared goggles. What I see is this ball of responsibility, the leader of money, and I'm asking, "Who leads with money?" And each of you is kind of like, "I don't want that." You're trying to toss it invisibly back and forth. Am I reading that correctly?

Yeah. The joke is people always think that I'm the boss in the relationship, when really, when it comes down to the big purchases in life, she's the one who makes the final say. So all the day-to-day stuff is on me, and so I would be the one that does it all.

Do you know that she is not effectively controlling the money? Do you internalize that?

I do more now.

Before, you didn't.

No.

I think you just hoped it was working out, and the roof was still over your head, and so I was like, "It must be fine."

Yeah.

I'm making a lot of money. We must be doing fine.

Once I was laid off, though, feeling more like, "Yeah, no, we made bad choices."

But still not like, "Hey, we made bad choices. Let's decompose what's going on," because that would raise a lot of uncomfortable questions like, "Should Melissa be in charge, or, quote, the controller? Do I need to step up? Do I need to recalibrate this relationship?" That's all very uncomfortable. So let's just sell the house. That'll get us some cash. We can solve this problem for now, and then we'll figure things out later.

Mhm. That's the step we took.

Yeah.

Because I think it was easier. Again, I think for her mental state and emotional state at the time when she lost her job, I don't think she was in a place to have that conversation.

Yeah.

So I think we just avoided it.

Yeah.

And she wasn't going to take that on.

Keep in mind, I agree. It's tough to lose a job, especially in an environment like this where a lot of people have lost their job in that industry. But you haven't had that conversation in 20 years. So it's not only about the job.

Mhm.

It is comfortable.

You were in a comfortable situation, but the fact of the matter is, when we're looking at the objective numbers, you are drowning. And my fear is that you will get right back into this scary situation.

Mhm.

Yeah.

I think in my head, if we don't buy a house again, we won't get into that situation.

But you will. I just showed you, if you rent for $4,000 a month, you will be in debt in less than a year. What's happening here is this idea of, "It will work itself out. God will provide," which is a good phrase, but it is—

Not tangible.

It's showing up in peculiar ways. I'm not saying that belief is wrong. I'm saying my mom has a sign that says, "Trust in God, but lock your car." Means make a plan. And so God may provide, but you need to create the outcome that you want and hope for some help. What do you think?

Mhm.

Yeah. 100%.

Cool. That means the two of you, you could sell the house. I think that's great. But that's not going to change anything until the two of you change it. Are you willing to do that?

Yep.

Yeah.

Great. Do you see a therapist?

Not anymore. We used to.

I would encourage you to see one because recalibrating a relationship is one of the hardest things to do. It's really hard, but it can be done. 100%. I have confidence you can do it. You both are very conversant. I think you are starting to appreciate the severity of the situation, which is, selling the house is not actually going to save us. It'll give us a stopgap. It'll buy us some time, but we're getting right back into it. Whether we live here, there, rent, buy, doesn't matter. It's us. How do you feel about that?

Mhm. Yep.

I agree with that.

Uncomfortable.

Good. That's so good. That's the first uncomfortable part. It's going to be many more. And actually, I love that the best growth comes from these uncomfortable feelings. Think about someone learning a language. It's so scary the first time you go order coffee, but you can't actually get good unless you do it. The first time you go to a gym, the first time you hold your baby, all of these things, it's uncomfortable. But we cannot get truly good unless we do that and we go right into it. What does your rich life look like in the future?

Just traveling the world with our kids. In my mind, I wanted to save up for a trip in 2028 that we could go visit my friend in Paris, go back to Spain, go to maybe Italy or back to Portugal.

How long would you go for?

Three weeks.

Okay, cool. What else is in your rich life?

Not being in debt.

Okay. Being debt-free. Let's call it being debt-free.

Being debt-free.

Good. Good. What else?

And just continuing quality time with Taryn and our kids.

Nice. Okay. Anything about food? Anything about purchases you want

To make?

Yes, I would love to be comfortable enough to eat out once a week.

Okay. Once a week with the family or the two of you?

Either.

Great. Before we continue, I want to let you know the next part of this conversation touches on child loss and grief. If this is a difficult topic for you to listen to, you may want to skip ahead by about three minutes.

Taryn, what about you?

Very similar. Number one, debt-free. I want that weight off my shoulders.

Okay.

Number one, travel. Travel is very important to both of us. It was a grieving mechanism for us when we lost one of our children. And so, travel is very important to us. And we haven't been able to do that.

Take your time.

And then beyond that, being able to just, hey, let's go on a date night or go out to eat with the kids. And just not feel guilty about it, like ordering the food and stuff. Don't want a big house, don't want a fancy car. Just want the debt gone.

Yeah, I like that. Why is talking about this making you emotional?

I think just obviously thinking about my daughter. I think a lot of our spending started after that too.

I didn't know that. I'm so sorry.

Thank you. We were in that place where life became very precious, obviously, where putting stuff on a credit card didn't feel as—it's like it was our therapy, and it's part of what got us through that. And I think obviously that contributed to some of that, again, before the house and all the other things that probably, in just saying this now, I think probably contributed towards it.

Yeah. Did you ever make that realization before now, the connection between the loss of a child to spending?

I don't know. Maybe kind of here and there, subconsciously.

Yeah. I think it was just easy to be like, who knows if we'll be here tomorrow? We need to enjoy our lives.

Yeah, you only live once.

We definitely went through a period of that, I think.

Yeah.

How long ago did you lose your daughter?

Almost eight years ago. Eight years ago.

That's probably the toughest thing anybody has to go through. I'm sorry.

Thank you. Thank you.

Why don't we take five minutes? Let's take a break and we'll come back and pick it up.

Okay. Didn't want to do my ugly cry face.

I didn't know that they had lost a child, and it came up quite late in our conversation. Once they told me that, it actually started to make a lot more sense. I certainly cannot understand the grief of losing a child. But when Taryn explained that to me and teared up, it helped me to understand that there was so much more going on here than just eating out, than just spending a few dollars they couldn't afford.

How would any of us react if we went through unimaginable grief? Losing a parent, losing a partner, losing a child. I don't think their loss explains everything that's going on here, but it certainly helps me get a little bit more color on who they are and what they've been through.

I haven't been through the type of grief that a lot of people in my community have been. My parents are both still alive. I haven't lost a sibling. And when people tell me what it felt like, you start to grasp this part of humanity that you simply have not experienced yet, but you know quite hauntingly it is just a matter of time. This idea that things will never feel the same again. This idea that you simply wish you could go back and have one more day with the person that you love.

And of course, when it comes to your finances, that becomes the last thing on your mind. Health, death. When those things happen, they are all-consuming. So, I appreciate both of them sharing this with me. I appreciate everyone who comes on the show, especially those who share some of the grief that they have experienced. Some of us have not experienced it yet, but we will. Some of you have, and I think for all of us, we can appreciate how difficult it must be or it has been. And it gives us a lot more compassion for every single person on this show.

Welcome back. I was thinking about what you described as your rich life. So, I want to read it back to you. You told me, Melissa, traveling with the whole family, being debt-free and eating out, let's say once a week. Taryn, you told me being debt-free, traveling, eating out once in a while. And you made a point: don't need a big house, don't need a fancy car.

Can I have food delivery, meal planning for that, to that rich life?

How? Yeah, you can. It's your rich life for sure. So, food delivery, how often?

Like three times a week.

Okay. All right. What do you think is the path from here to there?

So, for me, the first step is we're selling the house. We have to get out of the house.

Okay.

I have to get a job.

Okay.

Potentially work more, potentially. We sit down and talk about, does it make more sense to stay in LA or not? Obviously we've been trying to stay in LA because of her clientele. Maybe it makes more sense that we move.

So I think how we get there is obviously change, which we've talked about. So aside from the obvious thing, sell the house, get jobs.

Hold on. These are important. I like where you're going. Sell the house, and then what do you do with the money?

We've talked about paying off debt.

Okay.

So, paying off the money we owe for the pool loan and for the money we borrowed, the fence, the concrete, and all this.

And the mortgage.

And the mortgage, obviously.

So theoretically, you could walk away being debt-free.

Mhm.

Depending on what you sell it for.

Correct.

Or you might have a little bit of debt left over, some amount.

Correct.

Okay. Let's say you have a little extra money from the house sale. What would you do with the money?

I think if I'm still unemployed, we want to look to rent. We have to be able to show some sort of income, be able to say, "Hey, we have this. We can put it towards additional rent if we have to because I don't have an income," to actually get a place to live in.

Yeah.

So, you take that and maybe use that. Okay. And speaking of income sources, Melissa, what are you gonna do since you won't have a pool in your backyard?

So if I were to talk to other families that'll let me teach out of their pools.

Great.

Yeah.

Actually extremely great. And if I can say, one of the things that I probably would have done before I installed a $200,000 pool, I would have asked, "Hey, is there any other way instead of us spending 200 grand?" Because how much do you charge people when they come over?

Like $2,000 per student.

For how long?

For seven weeks.

Yeah. So that takes a long time to recoup the profit on. Is there any other way? It might actually be cheaper for me to get a freaking Uber to somebody's pool every time than to install a $150,000, $200,000 pool in my backyard. These are the kind of questions I want you to start thinking of. Okay. So take the money, any profit left over, use it to live while you find a job.

Correct.

You're going to be teaching at other people's pools, so you should be able to keep your clientele up for the most part, right? I'm with you so far. What's next?

Child care. So, again, depending on if I have a full-time job, we obviously need child care for the hours she's working.

Yes.

If I don't have a job, I would be that child care. So, I think that's obviously the big if. There's two paths, right? Do I have a job? What does that look like? If I get a part-time job, does what I'm making part-time equate to what we would pay for child care? Maybe, maybe not. So, those are the questions I think we need to dive into next.

If you did all of these things, and maybe you get child care or you stay home or you get a part-time job, what do you think, just intuitively, what happens with your finances?

That's where we're kind of stuck because we look at it and we're like, whatever we make, whatever we have left over from the house would go towards paying rent somewhere. Unless realistically we're like, we're dropping everything and we're moving to move in with your parents, which then I'm not working because then I'm—

Stick with the LA thing. Don't get things confused. This is what happens.

Okay.

I need you to stay with one idea and play it out. So, you stay in LA, you rent. You're renting for, let's say, $4,000 or $5,000 a month. Okay? Maybe you get a job, maybe not, child care, et cetera, whatever. What's happening with your finances?

Well, this is what I would like to do, is figure out what should we be putting towards savings.

Mhm.

How can we invest?

Do you even have enough every month to make savings?

No.

No. At $5,000 a month for rent, your business may stay the same. Maybe it goes down a little bit. We don't know what's going to happen with your job. Maybe it's great, maybe not. Just intuitively, you all are just setting yourself up to struggle again for the next five years. Be right back into debt. Why are you not coming to that realization?

No, I think because in my mind, she's going to get a job and that's going to help us have that money to make our fixed costs less.

If she gets a job—

Mhm.

She said it probably won't be nearly as much as she was making. And you're now going to have how many thousands of dollars a month in child care?

A lot.

Mhm.

I think there's some of this kind of prosperity gospel thing happening right now. It's just like, let's just kind of work hard and it will be provided for us. But we're now talking about, do you all want to be in the same position struggling with money for the next 40 years?

No.

Because the path you just told me does not lead you to travel. There's no traveling in that path where you can barely scrape together the money per month. Right now you don't even have a savings habit. But how are you gonna save when you have way less money?

I think I thought a portion of the house would maybe go to investments.

Okay. I'm sure it could.

Or savings, but then it's like, how much is left over to help with rent? Because we have to live somewhere.

I think when we were talking about numbers, we thought, well, our mortgage won't be $8,000 a month anymore. It would be hopefully five. We wouldn't have the loan payments. That's another 2,300, whatever that is. Literally doing the numbers, and we're like, okay, we cut our monthly in half by selling our house.

Should we look at the CSP? Show me what you did. Let's take a look. So right now, your fixed costs are like 236%. Your current mortgage is $7,899. Let's take that down. What do you say conservatively? $5,000?

Yeah.

All right. And your utilities? Let's call it $250.

Okay.

Fair. Mhm.

All right. Insurance, let's keep it.

Okay.

Car payment, let's keep that. Debt payments, let's put it at $1,000 just to be conservative.

Okay.

All right. Groceries, let's keep that. Clothes, let's keep that. Phone, kids' activities. Subscriptions, we're going to keep, and miscellaneous, keep. You're at $15,000 per month. You're still at 176%, three times higher than you should be. What does that tell you?

And this is based on if I don't have a job, right?

Insurance would go down because our HOA is really high because I run a business out of our home.

All right, let's drop it.

So that would get rid of probably $1,000 at least.

Let's drop it. $839.

It might even be less than that.

You're at 165%. And let's go ahead and add your income. So how much do you think you would net?

$100,000.

$100,000. So, let's say you would net, just for easy math, $7,000 a month. Let's just say, watch. Okay, you're down to 83%. Still way too high, but within striking distance. However, we need to add child care. Child care is how much for five kids? I got in trouble one time because I was surprised child care for one kid was, I don't know, $2,500. And everybody came after me on the internet, which, fair enough. My bad.

$2,500 a month?

Yeah.

Dang. How much is it for five kids?

It's $200 a day. And it's four days a week.

$800. Yeah.

Sixteen, $3,200.

$3,200 a month.

Mhm. Yeah.

That's crazy for just that many hours.

Mhm.

Let's put it down. $3,200. I'm going to put it here. We're now at $18,000 or 103%. That's the ball game. Unsustainable. Do you see how just two minutes' worth of planning shows you that you would spend the next 10 years of your life anxious, guilty, stressed, and failing? That's all it took.

Maybe we're right or wrong by 10% or even 25%, but that's it. It doesn't matter. The game is over and you lost. So, what does this tell you?

I don't know. Some big change, but I don't know—

Yes.

What that is.

Good. At least that's good. I agree. It has got to be something bigger than you working harder and, Taryn, you getting a job. Maybe even get paid an extra $3,000 wouldn't really change anything, right? What's the next biggest change that you have to make?

I think it's where we live.

Tell me.

Because obviously LA is way expensive.

Yes. As we're seeing.

So I think that's probably the first big decision we need to discuss, is where do we live?

No time like the present.

Yeah. But realistically, this is a thought that goes through my head. What is the cost of my clientele here in the business that I have versus moving, not having that money, not necessarily having her having a job wherever we move, and then we have no income coming in?

Here's the reality. You've done a great job with your business. You're making six figures. It's very impressive. Unfortunately, even with your business at the level it is, you can't survive here. It's just impossible. Once that income went away and the fact that you have five children and all these other expenses, that decision was made.

And so the hardest part of facing the numbers might be confronting the reality that the changes you have to make are bigger than you ever thought possible. Because to me, the worst thing is you go the next five years of your life stressed, going right back into debt, and you took that one opportunity you had of selling a house and just squandered it because you didn't have these tough conversations.

Play it out with me for a second. Let's say that you accept the business provided for you, but that chapter is over. What would you do?

I'm like, how much would rent be somewhere else? Is it that much cheaper?

Your mind is doing the thing where you're trying to unconsciously argue against moving. What your mind is trying to do is get you to just stay in comfort. I know LA. I know we can make it work. We've done it before. No, you can't. You have not made it work. You have over a million dollars of debt. The voice in your head is not the voice that I want you to trust. And I hate to say that because I want you to trust yourself. I want you to trust the two of you, but you need to use numbers.

Yeah.

Go ahead, Taryn. I know you got something on your mind.

I feel like the first thing we would think about is, we don't want to stop her career. What are some good locations where you could rebuild? Obviously, it wouldn't pay the same. Let's think about places that are more affordable. Can you actually build a business there? Yes or no? Great. Then we can think about the next steps from there. What is the cost of living there? What do I need to make? And then what do you need to supplement for us to be able to get that number down, that percentage down?

I think that's a good start. Can I make some observations? Let's say you picked a mid-cost-of-living area. Let's say, I don't know, Austin, Texas. I'm just picking random places out.

Well, Vegas would be a place that I know.

Vegas, great, great example.

Build a business.

So you could build a business. The weather is very favorable for your business. Cost of living would come way down.

So in your situation, I would play that out.

Yeah.

But how much could you make? And the first year is going to be difficult. You got to build up that business. What kind of job could you get? Your rent would be way lower. And could we even economize more and really crunch it in for a while until we hit this much in savings and then get a bigger space, and then play that out? Okay, so that's one way to go.

Yep.

Can I make the observation about something I feel is right in the middle of us? You know what it is, right?

I have no idea.

Your family.

Oh, yeah.

I know you don't want to go to South Carolina, but just play with the idea for a second. If you went there, would they charge you rent?

No.

No. So, keep going. Play that out for just a second.

So we move out there. We wouldn't be paying rent. So we'd have a little bit more time to get up. They have a pool so I could teach. They wouldn't.

My mom's very, very happy right now watching this. I'll tell you that much.

Keep going.

So we'd have more time for me to build my business there.

So here's the other big thing about not just the humidity with my hair. Our lifestyle.

Mhm.

Being a gay couple, I'm not saying that can't exist in South Carolina, but where my parents live, there's still definitely a lot of segregation. I know that it's come a long way, but we live in a bubble here and we're able to have these five kids and not be completely judged and feel safe with our kids and stuff. So that is definitely something that's not working in our favor if we were to go to that small town that my parents live in. Actually, for me, that's been probably the bigger factor for me not wanting to go back there.

Yeah.

For me, that would be worst-case scenario, which we're clearly in. And it would be temporary, but I wouldn't want that to be our forever.

Yeah.

If we had to, we absolutely would.

I really appreciate you sharing that, and I hate that we are in a situation where this is even a consideration.

Yeah.

In my wish, this would not be something we even talk about or have to worry about, but I think it's real. Have you ever talked about this together?

Mhm.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Okay.

Because, again, I've been the one keeping us in LA when I've had my job. We've stayed here for my job. She's been ready to go. She's used to moving every five years, being military family, all that. My family would love it. She's like, "Well, let's move to Charlotte, North Carolina." My family would love having me closer. I'd love to be closer to my family. But that's always been the thing. And my brother argues that Charlotte's way more progressive in that way, which I'm sure it is.

Can we look at the numbers? This is one of those things where I think we need to start with numbers and then weigh in all the very important non-financial considerations, which are legit.

Sure.

So, if we take a look, let's try Nevada. Let's just model it and play for a second.

Okay.

We're going to find a three-bedroom apartment or townhouse. It's $1,500 to $3,000. Since you have five kids, you want to try to get a bit of a place that's safe, etc. $3,000. All right. Utilities are whatever. We'll keep that. It's going to be lower than that. $150.

I think insurance has to be lower.

Insurance? Yeah. Okay. Let's bring it to $500, though. You do have five kids and, etc. I don't want to be too crazy here. Debt payments, let's keep it at $1,000 just in case. The house. Groceries at $1,600. No.

Because you don't pay sales tax either there.

No. I'm just saying you all can't spend that much.

Yeah. No, no. We've been closer to $1,200.

$1,200. Clothes, $300.

I think I just put that in there just as a buffer, by the way.

Okay. $100. You do have kids. Phone, fine. Kids activities. Yeah. So $4,700 a month. No.

Oh, that's medical, too. Oh, that's a big expense.

This is your child care and kids activities.

Well, kids activities would probably go away because we wouldn't be here and doing that.

Walk in the desert. Goodbye. What is it? So, how much are we putting? $200 a month.

Yeah, you can.

That's not a lot.

It is what it is.

$200.

And then, what's this? $3,200. That's child care.

Child care.

You're going to have to have it, right?

Yeah.

Let's keep it the same. Maybe it's a bit cheaper, but let's keep it. Subscriptions at $1,130. Yeah, right. You have $50 a month. All right. And then miscellaneous at $2,000. Yeah, right. You all have $350 to figure out your miscellaneous, which is things that come up, tires, etc. So you need to plan for that. It's going to be hard. That's actually challenging, but this is what it needs to be.

Oh, I just got news. This actually is at $2,000 a month for your rent, is bigger than your current house.

What? That's crazy.

You're currently at $9,923. And wow, look at that fixed cost number. 55%.

Wow.

That's actually pretty cool. I did not expect that. Now, I want to point something out. Let's say your debt does get paid off, okay? Either through the house or eventually you pay it off. Watch what happens to this number. I'm going to take it to zero. You're not paying $1,000 a month anymore. Whoa. Your fixed costs dropped to 50%. That's actually amazing. Incredible. Which means you have—this can't be right—$9,000 a month to play with.

No, because that's based on an income that we're not making anymore, though.

Oh, yeah. Her income would be my business.

Let's fix it. How much would you make? Boy, it's got to come way down, right? Like $2,000, $3,000.

I'd say maybe $3,000.

Okay. Maybe less. $2,500. Let's be conservative.

Okay.

And then Taryn.

Maybe. I don't know.

It's got to be less.

$80,000. I have no idea.

$80,000. Let's say $5,000. Let's say $5,000. I think you could find something there for sure.

Oh. Whoa.

Oh my gosh. That's crazy.

Back up to 119% on fixed costs.

Child care costs all the way.

Yeah. And I want to add your debt payments back in. Watch this. You're now at 132%. What does it tell you?

They can't afford rent.

Yeah. You can't afford this very quick back-of-the-napkin that I did. Even if you cut it by 30%, 40. You cannot afford that. Tell me what's going through your head right now.

I'm like, are we moving to South Carolina?

Shall we play that out for a second?

Sure.

Because remember what we're doing here. We are starting with the financial numbers, and we got to nail those first, and then we go to the non-financial considerations. You might be like, it's too hot or it's too humid or I don't know if it feels safe, but first let's get the numbers.

Sure.

Okay. Let's try that. So rent in South Carolina?

Would be zero.

But you mentioned you wanted to pay a little.

I'd want to contribute.

Let's pay $500 a month. All right. I don't know your family dynamic, but let's just do it. Utilities, what? Zero.

Zero, I guess.

All right. Insurance, let's keep it. Car payment, gas. Can you all get rid of one car?

We might if we're there, I guess. Yeah.

All right. Let's drop this to, let's just say, $700 conservatively. Okay.

Okay.

Debt payments, we'll keep that. Groceries at $1,200.

I think they'd be way less there.

Yeah.

I know, because then her parents would be cooking and stuff.

Love it. $300.

Still contributing something, but way less.

Clothes at $100. Are we cool with that? Fine. Phone, fine. Kids activities, etc. Child care.

No. Be there.

Yeah, we would need it to zero.

Well, kids activities, let's give them—you know what? Nice. $250.

I wouldn't want to fully rely on them watching the kids. That's a lot.

Let's add some. Yeah.

Let's add something. You're right.

Not fair to them.

I'm going to put $1,000. It could be more. You're right. It's not fair. We should be considerate.

Okay.

Subscriptions at $50. Miscellaneous at $350. Holy. Look at this number. It's $4,600 a month.

That's crazy.

It's striking, right? Let's scroll up. You're at 62%.

But we got to change—well, I don't know, that income.

Yeah. I don't know. We have you making $80,000.

I don't even know, what would you do in South Carolina?

I'd probably work for a school district or something because my mom has connections here.

Yeah, true.

Might pay pretty well.

For South Carolina, I would think. Maybe like $65,000. Anything could be $80,000.

Maybe.

Could be a pension. Might not pay 80 off the top, but it could be a pension, which would reduce the amount you need to invest. Worth finding out.

Part of this CSP process and projection is you actually don't need to know everything.

Yeah.

Be comfortable that we're sketching on the back of a napkin, but if you're at 132%, it's over. There's no fixing that. At 62%, you could probably wiggle around. You could ask your parents, "Hey, can we pay a little bit less right now?" Or you can pay them more. There's so many different ways at 62%. At 130, it's over. I want to point out that in this scenario, you have $2,854 a month left over. What would you do with that money if you had it?

Invest.

Yeah. Invest and save right now. That's what I would do. I would take a little bit and spend it, maybe 5 to 7%, low. And the rest of my take-home pay would go to building up savings and building up investing, which will allow you to not have to live in South Carolina forever.

It will allow you to eventually have enough to be able to move somewhere else. You can take your time finding a job because you're in the comfort of home. Also, it'll allow you to eventually get towards that rich life of being able to eat out. You can't do it right now, but you could if you start building up savings and investments.

What are you taking away? I'm not pushing for any one thing, but I am showing you how to project the possibilities. What is your reaction to this, Taryn?

My initial reaction is obviously I just feel like we've failed, which is really disappointing. Yeah. And obviously nothing against my family, it's just a real bummer that we're in this situation. So it makes sense, and we got to do it.

Melissa, what's your reaction to this?

I'm trying to actually picture us living with her parents. And I'm like, what would that do to our marriage?

Well, like I said, I think they would move out, but—

Yeah. But would they really move out or would they go?

I don't know.

That's not realistic. I feel like they say that; that would not happen. And I'm also wondering how many months would this be? How short-term, long-term would it be if we get to that point where we save enough? Where would we go next? What would we even be saving for? If we're not paying rent, then we get used to not paying rent. You know what I mean? So then it's like, how do we reenter society? So those are all the thoughts that come to my mind.

I like these questions.

Mhm.

A couple things that occur to me. One, I think you raised a really good question of what would happen to our marriage. And I think in your scenario, your marriage needs a mission. And so I would actually flip it from, "Oh, this could be uncomfortable," to, "Wow, what a blessing that we have a family that can offer us space, cut our rent to almost nothing, and help with the kids, and most importantly, give us a mission."

And that mission being we are going to build the skills of managing our money. We have proven unable to do that until now. And right now we're living in LA, which is basically the Olympics of money. LA and New York is where it is incredibly expensive, and the world is against you unless you're making a ton of money.

We're going to get our bearings with the blessing of our family to be able to allow us to stay, or a super low cost of living city where we make enough, etc. And we're going to learn month after month how to save, how to invest, how to not spend the way we used to. And once we hit these milestones, we could talk about the next step, but this is how much we need to have in our savings. This is how much we need to have invested. This is how many months we need to have done it consecutively for.

That's how I would think about it. I can't tell you to do it, but if we're talking about a reset, which in my opinion is what is needed so you never get back into this situation.

Yeah.

You can't reset while still living next to every freaking LA restaurant and basically doing the same thing that you've been doing, just with wiping off the debt. You'll be right back into it.

Mhm. Yep. It's kind of striking to see the difference between Vegas and living at home.

Mhm.

What do you think?

I think if we move to Vegas, what money are we going with? And I have no client base. You don't even have a job.

Well, yeah.

So it's like starting from really scratch.

Starting from scratch, and maybe even starting in debt because where's all that moving money going to come from? Hopefully you sell the house for a bunch of money, but even that takes a while. So now you're back on the credit card.

Yep.

I don't want that. I don't want one more day of paying on a credit card.

Same.

Taryn, realistically, when do you think that you could start working again?

I'm ready now. I just cannot. Like I said, I have the one role that I've been—I'm on the fourth round. But again, it would be in LA or New York.

Okay.

Even now that's just feeling like—

That would probably be pretty hard.

Yeah.

I think in another place in time, and a place that you could get to—

Just not today.

Yeah.

You would have enough buffer, enough savings, enough healthy habits to be able to go, "Okay, LA it is," or New York. But today it's really challenging.

Yeah.

Mhm.

What about your kids? If you changed nothing, you kind of kept on this path, what do you think they would notice?

To date, nothing's really changed for them. Again, the 12-year-old knows because we put our house up for sale, and it's like, why? And we were having some of those conversations.

Yeah. What about as their parents got more and more into debt and older and older, less able to recover? Think they would notice their parents getting stressed?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And then as they turned 18 and 20 and 24 and 26, what do you think they would take?

The same things we took from it. The same thing that I did, which was—

Debt is okay. You'll come out of it.

Everybody has debt.

Yeah.

It's fine.

Just try your best and things will be okay.

Yeah.

And then it repeats.

Which is what I'm literally teaching them the opposite of.

Oh, you're teaching them that.

Mhm. We're teaching—

Through words.

Through words, of course.

Yeah.

And how about through actions?

No, because we have no money to actually save. So I'm like, "You guys save your money. That's great."

Yeah. I heard that kids love when parents tell them something but do the opposite. They love that learning style.

It works.

Okay. Yeah, it works.

That's why having a mission is actually really powerful. Incredibly powerful, more than you may even internalize. The idea of making a massive change can be scary. No doubt about it. But actually bringing the family along and teaching them, "This is something that we have to do. Here's why." And at age-appropriate levels, a 12-year-old should know basically everything. Maybe not exact numbers, but this is what we did. For the last 20 years, we've been in and out of debt. And it started off because we were making a lot of money, and we would spend, and that's fine.

It's nice to be able to do that, but we didn't pay attention. And actually, we didn't communicate. We don't sit down and talk about money. We do it this way. We do it that way. And we've realized that's a mistake. And we got into a lot of debt. And that's why now we are selling our house. And we need your help to start over.

Here's what we are doing. We are reading I Will Teach You to Be Rich together. We are joining Ramit's Money Coaching program, whatever. We need you to come with us and we need you to help us come up with a plan and stick with it. We're going to hang it on the fridge or we're going to talk about it once a month, but we need you because we need all of us to do it as a family. How do you think your kids would react to that?

Yeah, I think they'd be excited to do it. Yeah. The 12-year-old would be. The other ones probably don't fully understand yet, but we'll get them there.

Yeah. Younger ones is obviously different. Not everything has to be a lecture for sure, but just telling the 12-year-old, instead of a dollar, I made a thousand dollars and this is what I did with it.

Kids love hearing their parents' mistakes. They love it. And it actually is a way to bond closer when it comes to money. And the thing is, no parents do this because they don't even have the confidence or competence in their own financial knowledge. How are they going to share mistakes? They don't even realize the mistakes they are making, but you do.

So this is why I say marriage having a mission is really powerful. You all have some work to do. You have some numbers to crunch. I think it's worth looking into jobs, talking to your mom. How much do these jobs pay? And getting really curious about what it would look like. Okay. I would love it if you could do it with an open mind. I actually think both of you are quite adaptable in the way you think. I've seen that today. So, if that voice comes up in the back of your head, name it, like stationary Melissa, some name.

Michelle.

Michelle. Michelle. Yes. And Michelle wants you to just stay put and keep doing the same thing. And we don't want that because we know that no matter what, you've got to make a huge change. It has to happen.

Okay, Taryn, you're looking for a job. I'm going to gift you a copy of my Dream Job program so you can look for a job. Much of this will be familiar to you because you've worked in top-tier jobs. Some of it will be new to you. I think you can use it to get a high-paying job even now, potentially remotely, which would make things quite amazing for the two of you.

Yeah.

Okay. So, we'll send you a copy of that. You can use it. Let us know if you have any questions. And then I want you to become decisive. The house is on the market. You've proven you can be decisive. That's amazing.

Yeah.

I modeled out if you make 150K, that's still great. Anything above that is gravy. You could fill up a savings account. You could start to simulate getting a steady income, which I think is critical.

Yeah.

You have flexibility with your family. They're so generous in terms of allowing you to pause that loan, but if you have the money, you may want to consider paying some of it, if not all of it. Depends on how much you make. Any questions on any of that?

I don't think so.

I think the big theme is be decisive, move fast, and it's got to be different.

Mhm.

That is how I would think about it. Okay. Melissa, what surprised you most about today's conversation?

Possibly moving to South Carolina. Seeing the numbers worked out and the fact that in my mind I thought, "Oh, we'll sell the house. We'll go do this. It would all work out," and it might not work out that way.

Yeah.

Is probably the most surprising.

Yeah. Seeing the numbers for sure because I think I was of the mindset too, selling the house will be huge, me getting another job will be huge, and then we're renting. But yeah, we're still, to your point, we're just going to end up back in the same place. I think I thought we won't be paying eight grand a month. We'll be paying five. We won't be paying the loan. That's another—it feels like a lot of money when you just say it like that. So I think that was probably the most surprising for me, is, oh wow, yeah, we really can't make this work.

That's really awesome. Sometimes just knowing that doesn't work is actually the most helpful thing at all.

Yeah.

We didn't even include moving fees into this.

Yeah, that was going in my head too.

That's a lot.

It's like even shipping a car out there.

Yeah, that's a lot. No, drive.

Well, we could drive it, but yeah.

All this stuff needs to be modeled in. And it's five, ten, fifteen thousand dollars when you add all this stuff in, deposit. It's a lot of money.

Yeah.

So, what I want, and I'm so glad you were surprised by that, is the importance of running the numbers. And you'll notice every time I had a choice to make, I added more money because I want to be conservative.

Yeah.

I never want to be surprised with an unexpected cost.

Yeah.

If anything, I'm going to be surprised by having extra money at the end of the year. But I am the opposite of delusional. I try to be realistic and a little conservative. I believe in myself. I believe that I can work and get amazing things, land a dream job, start another business no matter where. I believe that, and I'm going to model out that maybe it's going to take me four times as long.

Okay. How do you feel now versus when you walked in here, Taryn?

A little more stressed out just because I really didn't think not living in LA wasn't going to even be an option. It just felt like I just need to get a job again and sell the house. So I feel a little more stressed just in that we have a lot of work to do and we're going to be making some very big, different decisions that we haven't. We joked about going to South Carolina, which, and again, we knew dire straits. Yeah, absolutely. I don't think I realized we were, oh, we are dire straits pretty much.

Yeah.

Or right there.

Yeah. But also I feel good in that, okay, we have an answer. It feels more clear.

The overreliance on feelings in money is really common and in my opinion is a major problem. Many people just talk about how they feel about money, and ironically I'm the one trying to encourage us to lean into our feelings. Feelings are real. It's not just math. But we always have to start with the numbers because too often too many of us are only talking about our feelings. And that's how you get into tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even a million dollars of debt and not really understand how.

So, I actually am really happy to hear you say you're feeling like, wow, maybe a little stressed, but that's okay. I never shy away from stress. We can handle it. And wow, a realization we have some big decisions to make. That's amazing.

Mhm.

How about you, Melissa? How are you feeling now versus when you walked in?

Definitely stressed, kind of more confused. It's a lot. I'm processing.

It's a lot. You're right.

I'm literally thinking numbers and processing the move and living there, and yeah.

Here's how I would approach it in your situation. It's very difficult to do these numbers in your head and you saw that, right? You talked about if we sell this and we go to 5,000 a month and it just seemed fine. That's because you weren't really doing the numbers. So, the way I would approach it if I'm in your situation and I'm like, whoa, this is a lot.

I would say to myself, first of all, one big takeaway that I've gotten from this and from Ramit is we need to do the numbers much more carefully. We both need to do them independently and then bring them to each other and compare notes. We need to take this seriously. Number two, I don't have to do this right now. I trust that when I'm at home and I can look at Zillow and I can plug in some numbers, I will come up with those. But I don't need to do it in my head. And actually, I don't trust my own math in my head. So, numbers need to be done at a computer. The bigger question is, am I willing to make a major change in where we live, how we live, and our relationship around money?

That the two of you have work to do on. What is our dynamic? Controller, bystander. How do we change that? Because just fixing the math, even moving to a place where we pay no rent, is not going to change a thing until the two of us are partners. What does partnership look like? Are there other episodes of this podcast we should go listen to because we need to recalibrate? Therapist, etc., etc. That is where I think you could spend time as well as the numbers.

Mhm.

Thank you so much for coming in.

Thank you for—

Thank you.

I don't take any pleasure in showing them that their life is about to change. It's not fun. Actually, I would rather have somebody who I tweak a couple numbers and help show them they're going to have $16 million. But the fact of the matter is that they are in a major crisis and they need a bit of shaking to realize how bad it really is. This would be bad if it was just the two of them. With five children, it is catastrophic and they need to take action.

Now, one of the things that I feel fortunate about is that when you go to somebody who is a third party, that person can cut right through all of the other issues that may have bogged you down in the weeds and just tell you exactly what is at stake here. And the fact is, they've got to move. They cannot stay in the same place. They cannot even cut their rent by 30%. Nope. They have to make massive, gargantuan life changes.

Deep down they've been counting on selling the house to patch up this problem, thinking once we get through that we'll go back to the way we were. You could even see it when I asked them what their rich life is. They were talking about ordering food. In this future, if they follow my suggestions and carefully run the numbers, that simply will not exist. And that's actually an extremely hard transition to make. You imagine as a household making, what, 350, $450,000 a year, and two years later you're not able to order delivery.

I don't think many people can actually understand the enormity, the severity of that change, but that is exactly what I am asking them to do. Now they don't have to do it. They can sell their house, pay off a little bit of debt, stay in LA, try to get a better job, try, try, and guarantee you in five years they will be back in debt. It is a horrible life to go through struggling over and over again because when you don't get out of a bad place, you start to think that it's not just the world, it's you. You start to be demoralized. You start to basically give up.

I won't allow that. That's not why people come on this show. They want the truth. They want me to tell it to them. They want me to give it to them compassionately. Notice that I didn't rip them apart. It would have been easy. I certainly would have got better views on my YouTube Shorts, but that's not what this show is. I'm not here to humiliate people for making poor decisions, which they have.

I slowed it down. I asked them lots of questions. Sometimes when they went down the wrong path, I let them. And then I tried to bring them back. I need them to get to the point where they realize buying that pool was a big mistake. Not talking about money as partners was a big mistake. Not cutting their expenses immediately when Taryn lost her job was a big mistake. I think they can get there. The fastest way is complete radical changes in the way that they treat money. Don't look back. Don't try to bring part of LA with you. That chapter is over. We appreciate it. It's been great. Now we are moving on to a new chapter of our life. And I'm really eager to see what they decide to do. Let's check out their follow-ups.

So after our meeting with Ramit, I think the biggest surprise for me were the beliefs that I held from growing up in my childhood into adulthood about finances and money. And the biggest surprise was how it's going to be such a big overhaul for our lives that we need to do in order to be where we want to be financially. So much so that I processed it really hard that night and really wasn't expecting that.

So we are working on our CSP. We are figuring out, are we moving out of California? Are we going to stay depending on what job she might get? But short term is obviously sell the house and move in with family for three or four months to get our bearings and figure out what the next big step is, whether it's moving out of state or staying in California.

So I think the biggest takeaway for me after meeting with Ramit was just how severe our situation is. I knew it was bad, but hearing that we need a full reset of thinking, of way of living, that was probably the biggest surprise for me. I don't think I realized just how severe it was. We have to make huge life changes right now. If we want things to get better, if we want to be able to have financial freedom, enjoy traveling, eating out, fun things, not having debt, really big changes need to happen for us.

So, that's the biggest takeaway, is that we just, no more talking about it. No more let's sit down and put down a budget together and stick to it and then forget about it two days later. We actually need to make huge life changes to make this work. As far as what changes we're actually making now, it's selling the house, couples therapy, really evaluating other areas where we could live, whether it be with my family in South Carolina, whether it be with Melissa's family here in Torrance temporarily. We're figuring that all out to see what we can do. So, those are our first immediate steps. But there's going to be a lot of other bigger steps, obviously, that are going to come through with couples counseling and figuring out what changes we need to make and that sort of thing.

Hi. So it's been six weeks since we sat down with Ramit and there's been some significant changes. Our house is on the market to sell. That'll take a huge chunk of money from our fixed costs so we can rent something way lower to try to keep within that 60% range. We have gone over all of our numbers in depth and cut everything we needed to. We brought a credit card we transferred to 0% so we're not paying just minimum payment on that. We're able to put more towards debt in general.

One of the bigger things is that we started couples therapy, which I think has helped us get through some tough times since meeting with Ramit because we really went through a big mindset shift after and it kind of rattled us both. And I think now being in therapy, it's really helped us get a grasp of financially where we are and our mindset around that.

And I'm going to be stepping in more, not sitting on the sidelines as much when it comes to finances. So, we're going to have a weekly meeting to talk about upcoming expenses for the month. I'm going to manage the budget for what we have to spend for the month on groceries and school stuff and all that sort of thing. So, we're definitely going to be tighter aligned on that, less all on Melissa for that.

I also still was looking for work, but I did land a contract position, which I'm excited about. So, that's good. I'll be back working again. At least have guaranteed work for about six to eleven months. So that is definitely a burden off the shoulders, but still looking for something more full-time.

And then in addition to my swim business, I'm going to be looking into a remote assisting job. So whether it's helping other moms with stuff that they can't do themselves, like scheduling appointments and everything, or working for an executive and just being a virtual assistant, I'm going to look into that just so I have a side hustle to bring in

More money to help towards the debt and investments and savings. So it's looking better. We just need to sell this house.

And the other thing is potentially moving in with family for a few months just to have some money that we can put into savings. That's another option we will be doing, as well as potentially renting near family who have offered to do child care for a year, which would be a huge savings. So all of that is going to be contributing to helping us save more and hopefully spending less, hopefully investing and saving more.

Yeah. But the meeting with Ramit was a huge wake-up call to both of us. We definitely have a mindset change. Lots more to do still. Feel like we're just scratching the surface, but I think we're on the right track.

Yep. Thank you.

Thank you.

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Article published September 29, 2026