Earning $142,000 With Nothing Saved: Ramit Sethi's Session With Molly and Jason

Overview

Molly (45) and Jason (46) live together near Lake Tahoe with their two-year-old daughter. They say they want to be rich: they want to buy a first house, invest in fixer-upper multifamily properties, and retire early. Their Conscious Spending Plan shows a household income of about $142,800 a year, $0 in savings, $46,640 in debt, and a net worth of $4,842.

32 min read

In this episode of Ramit Sethi's Money for Couples, Sethi argues that the gap between their dreams and their numbers is not mainly a math problem. It reflects a relationship dynamic: one partner has quietly checked out, and the other carries everything alone. Over the conversation, both of them describe that dynamic in their own words, and by the end they have committed to a different setup.

A household run on Venmo requests

Molly opened with the problem as she experiences it. After having a child in their 40s, she looked at their finances and concluded they were not doing well. Daycare prices rose in the fall, and in two of the three months since, the payment overdrew her account. Money that isn't there comes out of her credit card.

The account structure explains why. Molly and Jason are not married and do not combine finances. Jason is the primary earner and gets paid weekly. Most bills are in Molly's name and come out of her account: utilities, medical, daycare, and health insurance, which she found and signed up for. Jason pays the rent himself and sends Molly money over Venmo "multiple times a month." Molly objected to calling this "not combined": "We're a unit that spends money." The money just lands in his account first.

The transfers are negotiated. When Molly needs money, she usually has to ask. Jason logs into his checking account, looks at the balance, and sends what he thinks he can afford based on what he expects to spend the rest of the week. They sometimes haggle over the amount. Molly described counting days: when Jason's paycheck will land, how long a Venmo transfer takes, and how many days she has before a bill is late and a fee hits. "It's like very much living in this moment of scrambling." She has tried budgeting software but gave up, because she never knows how much money is coming in.

Asked about their roles, Molly said hers was "trying to make it all work," flying by the seat of her pants. Jason said his role "isn't that large at this point": he works full-time and sends as much as he can above rent. Sethi summed it up: Jason earns most of the money but tracks and manages very little of it. Jason agreed.

They also never discussed the financial side of having a baby. Molly laughed at the question. She pointed out they had nine months to have that conversation and didn't. She worked physically demanding jobs right up until the birth, partly because she enjoyed them and partly to build a small nest egg, since "we didn't really have a plan."

Visibility, emotional labor, and "I haven't focused on it"

Molly has some visibility into Jason's account because she has logged into it while trying budgeting tools. Jason has never looked at hers. Asked whether he cares to, he answered: "Honestly I haven't cared that much."

That answer made Molly emotional. She said she is in charge of everything, not just money: finding the pediatrician, deciding where and what the baby would sleep and eat. Jason was home for one week after their daughter was born. She was then "in the middle of nowhere with a newborn." They moved to a new state, and Jason now works around 60 hours a week. "It just feels like a lot of the responsibility of like our family is on me."

Sethi introduced the idea of emotional labor, meaning the invisible load of running a household. Jason agreed it falls mostly on Molly. Both said they never decided this; it "just usually falls to mom." Jason said he felt bad, knew he could do better, and had offered to take over bills. Pressed on why he hadn't, he said: "It's not been a focus. I haven't focused on it and I should."

In his narration, Sethi called that response "not acceptable." Molly tracks due dates, paycheck timing, even Venmo transfer times, and Jason's reply is that he hasn't focused on it. Sethi's reading is that Jason has disengaged not only from money but from Molly, from family responsibilities, and in some ways from himself. Meanwhile Molly has fallen into a trap Sethi says is common among his guests, especially women: carrying the mental load, asking a partner for permission, and accepting a partner who doesn't act like one. Sethi added that Molly is not actually good at managing money either. He described a familiar cycle: an avoider opts out, the other person compensates by controlling everything, and usually neither is competent. In his view, an unequal money partnership always reflects deeper beliefs, and the money is a symptom.

The conversation that never ends in a decision

Sethi asked them to reenact their last money conversation. In the kitchen, Jason said that after paying rent he barely had enough to reach the next paycheck and wasn't sure where it went. That was strange, because the month had an extra paycheck and they had also gotten a rental deposit back. Molly had assumed they could put a real amount toward credit card debt. Jason said he didn't know what happened and would check his account, though he was "pretty sure it's no different than any other month."

Stepping back, Molly said she gets mad and gives up halfway through because she knows she won't get clarity. She believes Jason gets defensive because he senses she doesn't trust him. Then she goes into "a fugue state almost," thinking he can't do what she needs. Jason said these conversations put him in a defensive state and he shuts down: the money is there or it isn't, it got spent on something, and he's often caught off guard and not in the mood. Sethi named the pattern: she brings it up, he gets defensive, it dwindles, no decision is made, and it resurfaces weeks later. Both agreed it happens often. Molly said this is why their finances feel like "a confusing web" even though they should earn enough not to be in this position.

They talk about money about once a week, Molly said, but not productively: "We just spend money and then figure it out afterwards."

$4,368 in subscriptions and a side of options trading

Asked whether he ever looks at where his money goes, Jason said "not very often." He had downloaded Rocket Money but described the result vaguely: lots of unaccounted-for daily spending, groceries, eating out, subscriptions. Sethi pointed out that Rocket Money shows every transaction and asked him to open it on the spot.

Jason counted about 12, then 14 subscriptions, including duplicates. The app reported $4,368 per year across 18 subscriptions. Molly said she knew it was bad but "did not know it was that much." Jason hadn't known either. He rated his familiarity with his own spending as "not great." Molly said she knows pretty much what she spends.

Sethi then raised a line from Molly's application: she didn't fully trust Jason with money because he hadn't been forthcoming about investing. Molly knew he used Robinhood and something like day trading or options, but not how much. Jason explained that the automatic withdrawals, about $200 a week, went to a long-term investment account. The options trading was on a different platform. A friend had been very successful with options the year before, so Jason started with about $500 and added around another $1,000, with results that were "kind of up and down." He didn't tell Molly the details, he said, because he expected to have better news.

Two single people who happened to have a baby

Jason described them as disconnected from each other and from money. They went from being single in their 40s to "basically married with children" in three years. Both had traveled a lot and lived single lives. Jason said he is still spending as if he were single and hasn't switched gears. Molly said their shared finances feel like "a disaster." Every time she puts energy into untangling them it goes nowhere, and she tunes out.

Sethi said that's common. People spend time where they feel competent and avoid areas where they feel out of control. That matters little for something like polishing a table. It matters a lot for relationships, money, and family safety, which will "get you one way or another."

Dreams versus goals

Their shared goals, Molly wrote, are similar, but discussing present money brings hurt and frustration. Both said they don't want to be poor. When asked whether they are poor, they settled on something between "low middle class" and "pretty poor." Jason said he'd like to be well off and retire early, while admitting that sounds "crazy" given their numbers. Molly wants to travel, spend time with their daughter, and build wealth through real estate. Specifically, they want multifamily units in disrepair that they could remodel and then resell or rent. Molly has researched loans such as the FHA 203(k), which she called her "fun project."

Asked how far along they were, Molly said they were at the research stage. Sethi asked whether it was a goal or a dream. Jason admitted it "hasn't moved from dream to goal yet." Molly described it as "free beer tomorrow": always next year.

Sethi connected this to a story from his email list. He once asked readers what they claim to want but don't do. A woman replied that she claimed she wanted to run three times a week. He suggested running once a week, and she said that wouldn't do anything. For Sethi, that sums up a common pattern: people would rather dream about the ideal version than take the smaller real step. Molly and Jason, he argued, would rather dream about real estate than save $250 a month, and talk about early retirement rather than figure out where Jason's last paycheck went. He said he encourages big dreams but always asks for a plan. For a trip to Japan, that means when, where, what, what it costs, and how the money gets set aside. "Children fantasize, adults plan."

The numbers: debt far higher than Jason thought

Reading the plan aloud, Molly listed assets of $28,000, investments of $23,482, savings of $0, debt of $46,640, and net worth of $4,842. Jason focused on the debt and said it was far higher than he realized. His guess had been about $18,000.

Molly explained why she knew the number better. Because she had better credit, both vehicles and the credit cards used for big family purchases are in her name. Sethi summarized: Jason has bad credit, so the debt and the job of managing it sit with Molly, while Jason gets a vehicle and doesn't have to worry about it. Jason agreed it isn't fair. Molly said it's probably why she's angry. She has processed much of her resentment alone because she doesn't want to be that person for their daughter. Even getting Jason to change would mean her guiding him through it.

Gross monthly income is $11,900. Jason is a project manager and site superintendent for a residential construction company, earning roughly $9,500 a month gross (about $120,000 a year). Molly works part-time remotely in HR and benefits, works weekends at a friend's deli, and cares for their daughter. Her income is about $2,400 a month. They described their income as average for the Tahoe area, but agreed when Sethi guessed they probably earn well above the local median.

Beggar and decider

Sethi put the monthly dynamic bluntly. Molly goes to Jason asking for a transfer, and Jason checks his account and sends what he thinks he can spare. Jason said he didn't like it either and "we need to change our setup." Sethi asked whether Jason believes he controls his own behavior. Jason said yes. Then why, Sethi asked, "we need to change" rather than "I changed my own setup last week"? Jason conceded he could initiate far more and cited being tired at the end of the day. Sethi's explanation was simpler: "I think you just don't do it because you don't have to." In Sethi's framing, Molly has been cast as the beggar and Jason as the decider who crosses his arms and names an amount.

A Conscious Spending Plan out of balance

Sethi then went through the rest of the plan:

Fixed costs: 77%. Sethi's typical target is 50–60%. He said the gap alone explains much of their stress.
Investments: 3%. Sethi linked this to their relatively low $23,000 invested for their age.
Savings: 1% ($125). It is an automatic transfer, Molly said, that they always end up spending.
Guilt-free spending: 25% (about $2,200/month). Molly had recalculated from the last three months, which included moving costs. She said it was "probably at least that."

Molly said neither of them works in hard details. They operate on "a lot of feeling" and "guessing." Sethi argued their income has let them be sloppy. A couple earning a third as much would have to track every dollar and could not overlook $4,000 a year in subscriptions. But he added that doubling or tripling their income wouldn't fix this dynamic. He guessed neither had good financial role models, and that they had never felt real failure, like being unable to feed their family. Both agreed.

Asked what she was noticing, Molly said she felt more hopeless than at the start. They are both bad at the same things: being responsible, holding boundaries, making sacrifices. "Almost combined," she said, they are worse. In narration, Sethi said he deliberately did not try to make her feel better. He believes they need "the gift of consequences," and that suffering is not always to be avoided. He illustrated with his own SAT preparation. It was hard, he said, but what he remembers is the outcome: getting into Stanford, lifelong friends, and career opportunities. In the conversation, he told Molly he didn't mind her feeling hopeless, because there is no "abracadabra" fix. Change takes sustained consistency. Both rated themselves "bad" at consistency and accountability. Sethi said he can work with a couple that is honest about its shortcomings.

One genuinely good decision: cutting rent

Housing was the exception. Rent is $2,000 plus $425 in utilities, 20.2% of gross income, which Sethi called "not bad." They had moved in September specifically to lower their rent, taking a smaller or less desirable place after discussing it for months. Jason said it was the biggest, most glaring number in their expenses. Sethi said the biggest savings anyone can make is on housing costs, and it is also the hardest because moving uproots everything, so almost nobody does it. That they did it, he said, gave him more confidence they could change.

Where the debt came from, and why Molly keeps answering

Of the $46,640 in debt, about $21,000 is on two vehicles: a truck at around 4% (Molly wasn't certain) and a van at about 7%. The remaining $25,000 is credit card debt. It came from a cross-country move, furniture to replace what they didn't ship, a new transmission, tires, the dog's dental extractions, and daycare charges that fell to the card when Molly's account was short.

Why not have Jason transfer his paycheck? Molly said she has told him to send all of it, she'd handle rent and everything else, and he said "we should do that" and nothing followed. Jason said he wants to transfer more but needs to figure out where the money goes. He named food: he may spend $20–25 a day. Sethi noted Jason takes home about $6,950 a month, so food alone doesn't explain it. Debt payments are $1,375 a month. When Sethi asked whether that was the minimum, he couldn't get a straight answer.

Then Sethi stopped the conversation. Molly kept answering questions directed at Jason: about the debt, the vehicles, his spending. Why, if she feels overloaded, is she always first to answer? "Cuz I feel like he doesn't know." Sethi told her to let him try and fail. By stepping in, she is perpetuating the dynamic that keeps them stuck. It's fine to say "I don't know," he added, and the smartest people he knows are comfortable saying it. In narration, he framed it this way: when Molly answers for Jason, she protects him from admitting he doesn't know. Jason lets her, because as long as she manages everything, he carries no responsibility. Molly gets to feel competent and protective, and Jason gets to avoid discomfort.

Two upbringings

Jason grew up in what he called "essentially a cult," a multigenerational religious community in Canada called the Move. Families lived together on a farm with livestock and gardens and pooled almost all their money. Money was barely discussed, and he spent his time outdoors. At 15 he moved away, took his first job with a contractor, and began to understand money. That same year his father died, so Jason never got advice from him. As far as he remembers, his father only saved in a savings account and never invested. His mother moved the family back to the Midwest to be near relatives. Jason lived with an aunt and uncle, who immediately pushed him toward college and advanced classes. He won a full-ride scholarship in that single year. He said he felt good about it but not as excited as others might, because excitement wasn't part of his upbringing. He said he doesn't get excited or smile often. Molly confirmed he gets excited in ways that are hard to see. Jason drew the connection himself: by not showing emotion, he often signals that he doesn't care, and that weighs on Molly.

Sethi then had them use a "wheel of emotions" chart, which he said he learned about in therapy, to name how they feel about money in the relationship. Jason chose embarrassed, resentful, apathetic. Molly chose embarrassed, resentful, overwhelmed. Jason said his resentment comes from working hard all the time to provide, wanting to improve, and sometimes feeling attacked. Molly said hers comes from the roles never being decided. It was simply assumed that because Jason earns more, she would be the stay-at-home mom who absorbs every sick day and school closure, more than two years in.

Neither expected to end up this way. Molly then said something she found bizarre: she is "living my mother's role." Molly's family seemed modestly comfortable, living next to a wealthy neighborhood where her friends lived, until her parents divorced. Her mother refused alimony because she wanted the divorce and took a night job on top of her day job. Molly now reads that refusal as her mother finally taking control. In the marriage, her father had told her mother not to worry while he racked up debt. After remarrying a man with land and money, her mother became very frugal and squirreled away money to give her children without telling her husband, because she didn't want to look like a gold digger. Asked what image she upholds, Molly said: that "we're doing fine." She described herself as not knowing where money comes from or what's happening, and being "silently resentful," though "maybe not so silent" as her mother.

Her father, who died a few years ago, loved Disney World. The family went almost every other year, always on credit cards and always going "all out." He borrowed repeatedly against the family home, which was foreclosed. He filed for bankruptcy and was rescued only by a government pension. He spent his final eight to ten years living with Molly's brother, with dementia. A small life insurance check from him helped pay for their cross-country move.

Growing up near wealth she didn't share, Molly internalized an "I don't care about money" stance. In her 20s that became living in the moment: spending everything on travel abroad, coming home broke, and feeling she was winning against the rat race. In her mid-30s she focused on her career and wanted a family, and she began to wish she had invested more.

"I got what I wanted and I'm still unhappy"

Molly recalled her therapist warning, when she was single and in her late 30s and wanted children, to be careful what she wished for. A partner and a child wouldn't automatically make her happy and could be a lot of work. "I sometimes look around, I'm like, this is what I wanted. I got what I wanted and I'm still unhappy." She said she doesn't know what would make her happy and feels she's been "holding on really tightly," waiting for the other shoe to drop. Sethi said this might be the subtitle of the American dream.

Speaking to Jason directly, Molly said she feels he thinks she would spend everything if she received all the money, when in fact she works hard to stay within limits. She believes he spends a lot without consequence and without thinking of them as a whole. "I need to have control of our finances." Sethi asked how that fits with feeling she's holding on too tightly. Molly said she wants control because she doesn't trust Jason. Then she made a connection aloud: her mother absorbed her bad feelings about their family's money while her father "just gets a pass," because she never looked at him as responsible. She doesn't expect her partner to make responsible decisions because she has never seen it modeled, and she doesn't see it in him now.

Jason responded that he'd like to take over more bills and put them in his name. He also wants to share accounts so Molly has access to all the income, something he thought she could trust him with. Sethi pointed out a risk in having one person hold everything: if Molly were hit by a bus, Jason would be left scrambling for passwords and trying to find out who holds their debt, with a daughter and no savings. Molly agreed they each play "a really individual role."

On marriage, Molly said her reason was financial. Jason had very bad credit, and she told him a legal contract wouldn't make sense for her. Asked how she was uncomfortable marrying for financial reasons but willing to have a child, she said she didn't think they would get pregnant. Jason said he'd be happy to marry but never saw it as a priority. He noted his credit has improved significantly since they met.

"What if nothing changes?"

Molly said what stops her is needing Jason's help. Jason said what stops him is not taking time to make a plan. Asked what happens if he doesn't, Jason walked it forward: they hit 50 with retirement looming, their daughter graduates, and they may have to move in with relatives, can't pay for college, and have no retirement fund. Molly's answer was starker. She doesn't see how they could stay together if nothing changes, though she doesn't want that, and she couldn't say where the point of no return would be. Sethi didn't press for an answer but said the question is worth taking to a therapist.

The truck, and the question of why now

Molly said the hardest part to face is retirement and savings. Their first priority, which she said they already have a plan for, is selling the nearly paid-off truck for about $15,000 and putting all of it toward credit card debt. Sethi reacted: "This is the greatest day of my life." He said he never hears this.

Jason added that they had discussed moving their daughter to full-time daycare so Molly could get a closer-to-full-time remote job. He also wants to take over more bills in his name. Asked what would rebuild her trust, Molly proposed weekly meetings on a day when Jason isn't exhausted, kept consistently for six weeks, covering debt progress, dropped subscriptions, and upcoming bills. Sethi reframed it. They shouldn't think about money week to week, which he considers too short-term to achieve anything, and Jason shouldn't decide what he can "afford" to send. Money should go to goals first, and eating out comes from whatever is left.

Both said they'd love a joint account. Sethi asked why it suddenly seemed easy when they'd never done it, and why it took someone like him to say so. Jason said he's run his own finances his whole life, the transition to family life hasn't been smooth, and he has been "apathetic" and "lazy in a lot of ways." He works hard at work but doesn't bring that effort home. Molly said she was surprised to hear "lazy," because she had thought it but never said it. It scared her to think she's with someone lazy. She realized she has been holding onto an image of where they should be rather than facing who they are. Sethi pointed back to her mother's "image." Molly agreed: "It's like just ignore what's happening if it appears to be fine." Sethi remarked that couples can be "delicate and polite" their way into total disconnection.

Rebuilding the spending plan line by line

Jason set the goals: reduce fixed costs to build an emergency fund and savings, and pay off the credit cards. Molly wanted the truck sold first. Sethi then worked through the plan:

Selling the truck removes a $365 monthly payment plus insurance, taking fixed costs from 77% to 72%.
Subscriptions total $545 a month. Jason said he could get his to $180 and Molly's are $35, for $215, which brings fixed costs to 68%.
Molly noted health insurance is rising to about $365, pushing it back to 73%.
Groceries at $1,100 could fall to $900, giving 70%. Molly later said $1,000 was more realistic if Jason stopped buying lunch.

On debt payoff, Sethi ran the numbers for the $25,000 in credit card debt. At $1,000 a month it takes 37 months and costs about $12,000 in interest. At $2,000 a month it takes 15 months and about $4,700 in interest. If they put $15,000 from the truck sale toward it and then pay $2,000 a month, it's paid off in five months with about $730 in interest. They also have a full garage of things they've meant to sell. Sethi claimed about 70% of households he talks to have sellable items like this.

For eating out, they estimated Jason's lunches and coffees at about twelve purchases a week, averaging $10: roughly $120 a week, $480 a month. Jason said he could "definitely go to zero" on lunches and would cut coffee to occasional, saving about $240. Sethi said that wasn't enough and switched methods: pay yourself first. They set investments at 15% (about $1,100). Sethi said the usual 5–10% isn't enough for people in their 40s with little invested. Savings went to 15% after they started at 10% and then 12%. That left $135 a month, about 2%, for everything discretionary.

Sethi said that isn't realistic, and that nobody yet understands where their money goes. His proposal: open a joint account and send about $8,000 of their $8,650 monthly net into it. Each person keeps roughly $300 to spend however they like, and they decide together where the rest goes. With all the money in one place, Sethi argued, where it goes becomes obvious. Both agreed immediately. Jason said putting investments and savings first "makes huge sense."

Then came the number that shifted the mood. Once the debt is gone, redirecting that $2,000 a month into investments would produce not $1 million but $1.75 million in 25 years, by Sethi's projection. He noted this excludes raises and faster payoff from selling things, and also excludes downsides like layoffs, which is why they need savings.

Holes in the plan, and "bleak"

Sethi then listed the problems. Discretionary spending at 2% is impossible for a couple likely spending around 30% now. Even 10% would require being completely dialed in: eating out about once a month, almost never buying coffee, maybe one modest vacation a year. They will need to adjust, either by lowering investment or savings contributions (which he'd dislike) or, more likely, by finding the few hundred dollars he suspects is vanishing unnoticed.

He was also blunt about their larger dreams:

House: not anytime soon.
Real estate investing: he would be extremely cautious even with Jason's contractor experience. He wouldn't consider it until retirement was on track, they had at least 12 months of emergency savings, and their money system was dialed in. That puts it at roughly five-plus years away.
Daughter's college: they can't afford it now. Money set aside for her should go to debt, since she has loans, community college, and scholarships as options and they have no equivalent options later in life.
Early retirement: "probably not likely." Possible only if everything went right, and he doesn't plan a life on that assumption.

Molly said she felt "bummed" and that it seemed "pretty bleak." She had hoped real estate would leverage their combined skills and move them further than a raise could. Sethi said he didn't mind that she was upset, since it may be the first time anyone has given them blunt feedback. He also said he isn't the ultimate authority; if in a few years they have the skills and have run the numbers, real estate is their call. But he rejected "bleak." Bleak would be doing nothing differently for five years. Eating out a little less isn't bleak. His family growing up ate out about once every six weeks, with a coupon, and pizza was a big deal. If Molly later raised her income by $50,000 after getting their system in order, he said, it would make a "gargantuan" difference and could reopen things like real estate. Done today, it would be largely meaningless. His metaphor: "There's a fire in your house and you two are focused on building a deck."

Jason said he loved the combined account and the savings-first approach, and compared it to a puzzle they both enjoy solving: a fixed chunk goes to high-interest debt for about six months, then they figure out what changes in month seven. Molly, visibly energized, said that with "our powers combined," working together, they could build real momentum.

Sethi's closing read

In his closing narration, Sethi said Molly now sees what he saw all along: Jason's disengagement goes beyond money, and her own response of taking debt in her name and stacking on more responsibility perpetuates it. He appreciated Jason's candor in calling himself lazy but cautioned that people who aren't behaving as good partners sometimes use admissions to clear themselves of responsibility. "I'm not interested in you admitting you're lazy. I'm interested in what you do about it." He acknowledged neither had role models for responsible money management, but said there is abundant cheap and free information and the rest is up to them. On the positive side, he noted that they moved to cheaper rent without being told, already had the truck plan, and seemed to see the possibilities when shown the $1.75 million figure.

Follow-ups

Shortly after recording, the couple said they'd had a "couple day emotional hangover." Both were most surprised by how deeply the session went into their relationship rather than just money. Molly said the retirement numbers made the urgency of saving real to her, along with the reality that they need to hold off on a house and tighten expenses for a while. She wants to automate their finances so they can "come up for air" and stop living in survival mode. They planned to open a joint account and to hold their first money meeting that day, on Sundays during their daughter's nap.

In a later update, Molly reported steps forward and setbacks. The biggest change, she said, is how they talk about money: without feeling judged, getting defensive, or avoiding it. She lost her job at the start of the year, which she said shook them out of a cycle that wasn't working, and has since found a new job paying more. They hold money meetings "not perfectly, but consistently enough to matter." They are selling the truck soon, aiming to be out of credit card debt by June. She rolled her old retirement accounts from past employers into a new account, they set new savings and retirement benchmarks, and she joined Sethi's coaching program. Most importantly, she said, they now have a plan.

Jason's update said their meetings are more consistent, collaborative, and less tense, and that he feels they're on the same team. He has taken on more household financial responsibility to lighten Molly's load. He is asking more questions to stay informed, and he is using Rocket Money more deliberately. He has raised his retirement contribution by a few percentage points and plans to keep increasing it until he reaches at least 15%.

I think we both want to really make some money. Like I Will Teach You to Be Rich. We want to be rich. We want to buy our first house.

I'd like to retire early. I know that sounds crazy once we look at our numbers.

Zero in savings. And do you have a daughter?

We just spend money and then figure it out afterwards.

Do you ever actually go and look into your spending and find out what happened?

Not very often.

We should make enough money to not be in our position that we're in. And that's why it's just a confusing web. I don't even know how to unravel it.

You spend over $4,000 a year on subscriptions alone.

Right.

I just knew it was bad, but I did not know it was that much.

You feel very disconnected on money.

We've been together for three years, and it seems like we just never get ahead. We're always kind of living paycheck to paycheck.

I feel resentful in the fact that I feel like I'm working really hard all the time so that we have money.

I sometimes look around, I'm like, this is what I wanted. I got what I wanted and I'm still unhappy.

How many times have you talked to someone who has big dreams? They want to retire at 45. They want to buy a 20-acre property. They want to travel all the time, but when you look at what they are actually doing to make that dream a reality, they haven't taken any concrete steps. We know people like this. They talk about all the things they want to do, but often they don't have any idea where last month's paycheck went. It's like people who talk about all these advanced weightlifting techniques, but they're not even consistent about getting to the gym three times a week.

Today's guests, Molly and Jason, are 45 and 46 with a two-year-old daughter. And they have big dreams. They want to buy a house. They want to invest in multifamily properties. And they want to retire early. But when you hear what they are actually doing with their money, you're going to realize it doesn't add up.

I'm looking at their Conscious Spending Plan. This shows me a very simple overview of all their numbers. And if you want help with your own Conscious Spending Plan, you can join my Money Coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching.

Here are their numbers. Household income $142,000 a year. Savings zero. Debt $46,000. Net worth $4,000. Let me put it another way. They make nearly $143,000 a year and they have zero dollars in savings.

They live together. They have a child together, but they keep completely separate finances. In fact, she asks for money. He decides and sends it to her. She manages everything alone while overdrafting to cover bills. And neither of them can explain where his paycheck actually goes each month. They're stuck in the same cycle month after month wondering why nothing ever changes.

Now, I have a quick favor to ask. Molly and Jason were brave enough to come on Money for Couples and share their story with us. As you listen and you watch, I'm going to ask that you keep your comments respectful and constructive. That is the type of community I want for my show. Let's get started now with Molly and Jason.

Molly, you wrote to us in your application, quote, "We live paycheck to paycheck, have virtually no savings, and I'm trying very hard to get us out of this hole." What do you mean by that?

Spent a lot of time researching what we can do, what we need to do, because after having a child in our 40s and looking around, reading the room, I was like, we're not doing well. The price of daycare went up in the fall, and two out of the three months since it's gone up, it overdraws my account.

Money is still very tight, but we always pay every month. We've always been able to pay it.

But then it's a little scary every month. It comes out on the first, so it's like there's just never enough, and so the excess comes from my credit card.

I got you. A couple of questions about just account structure. Do you two have combined finances or not?

No, they're not combined.

I send her money multiple times a month.

What is that look on Molly's face? Molly?

It is combined. We spend everything together. We're a unit that spends money, but the fact that most of the bills come out of my account, but the money goes into his account and then he sends me money.

Hold on. What in the hell? Try that again with me.

Most of the utilities and other expenses like medical are all in Molly's name. They go through her account. I just send her money for most of it and I pay the rent myself.

Questions. How do you send the money?

Venmo.

Okay. And you two are married, correct?

No.

No, we're not married.

Not married. You live together?

Mhm. Yes.

And kids? How many kids?

One. She's two.

Okay. When did money become a source of tension for the two of you?

When I stopped working and had a baby.

And was that when your daughter was born or was it while you were pregnant?

I basically worked up until she was born.

Okay. Because of financial reasons or were you just enjoying work or were there other reasons?

I enjoyed work. It was physically active, which I like, but also I was trying to build up a little nest egg, because we didn't really have a plan.

I see. Did you two talk about the financial part of having a baby?

No.

I don't think we really did.

Molly, why did you laugh when I asked that question?

Because you'd think that would be an important conversation you have. You have nine months to have it, but we definitely did not.

Okay. How did you come up with the system that you have developed where you have separate accounts, he transfers money to her? How'd that come about?

I'm the responsible one in the couple that does the, let's open the energy account, let's open the water bill, let's do all... And I'm home, so it makes sense for me to do that, too. The admin, if you will.

Got it. What's the thing about her daycare that comes out of your account? Explain that one to me.

Again, this is all the things that I have set up. So, I found the daycare, for instance. I am the one who's communicated with them. I signed us up. I'm the one who goes out and I got our health insurance, signed up for that. I get all of her stuff. I pretty much take care of those things in our household. That's all me.

How would you describe each of your roles with money?

My role with the household money is trying to make it all work. It's almost flying by the seat of my pants.

I guess my role isn't that large at this point. I go to work. I work full-time and basically send as much money as I can above rent.

Are you the primary earner?

Yes.

Okay. That's your role then, right? If we're going to simplify it.

Yeah.

So, you're the primary earner, but it sounds like you do not track much of the money or organize or manage most of the money. Would that be fair to say?

Yes.

All right. So, you make the bulk of the household income and then do you send all of it to Molly or some of it?

Definitely don't send all of it. I send what I think is as much as I can afford to send.

Does it come up when, Molly, you need Jason to transfer money over and he says, I don't know if I have that much?

Couple times a month.

At least. Yeah.

And then we'll negotiate and maybe change the amount.

How do you decide that?

Usually based on how much is in my bank account.

Your checking, right?

What? Yes.

Hold on. Explain. So you get paid what? Every two weeks or four weeks?

I get paid every week.

Every week. All right. So, what do you do? On Friday, do you log into your checking account and then how does it work?

Sure. Yeah, I log into my checking account. I look at how much money I have. Yes, that's true. When I get paid. And at that point, it's always time to send money. There's always a need for money.

Often he doesn't just send me money. I have to ask, hey, I need more money. We have all these bills coming out beginning of the month. And it's just literally counting days to being like, when can he get money that he can then send me money, and it will take this much time because it's Venmo, and then I have this many days before it's absolutely late and we get a fee. I guess that's what I mean. It's very much living in this moment of scrambling.

You like it?

No. And I tried to do budgeting software, but it's too confusing. I just give up because I have no idea how much money is coming in. I just end up being really confused. It's too hard to figure out by myself.

And when you ask Jason for help, or do you ask him for help?

I have. Yeah, I've asked him for help, but often when we talk about money or even just getting into details, it's just not fruitful. It doesn't ever flow well. I admittedly sometimes come in hot. Sometimes I'm already upset, right? I'm not preemptively being like, "Hey, we're both in a chill mood. Let's talk."

You don't do that.

No. We talked about trying to set that up, but it never happened.

How often do you talk about money?

Once a week, but it's not a productive way of talking about money. We just spend money and then figure it out afterwards.

That's true.

How much visibility do each of you have into each other's spending and finances?

I am limited into his, but more than he probably does into mine, because I have accessed his account. When I was trying to figure out different budgeting software I've used, I've gone into his account, but he's never looked at mine.

Right.

Do you care to, Jason?

Honestly, I haven't cared that much. No, I haven't.

Do you ask Molly questions about money?

As far as our day-to-day expenses and monthly or just day-to-day life? No.

Do you ask Molly questions at all?

Sometimes. Not a lot of questions.

Molly?

I don't know why that makes me emotional. Yeah, it's a lot of me, I feel like, trying to, I guess, be curious about this.

I suspect it's not just this.

Yeah. I'm in charge of all the things.

Mhm.

And he trusts me with that, but it's a lot to constantly figure out, like finding the pediatrician or even when she was born, figuring out what she's going to sleep in or where she sleeps or what she eats or what we do. That's all on me for sure.

Mhm.

He works also a lot and he has since day one. He was home for one week when we had our daughter, and then I was in the middle of nowhere with a newborn. And then we moved into a new state, and some things would have been better with community, but then now he's gone even longer. He's gone like 60 hours a week. And I've just learned to deal with it. But it just feels like a lot of the responsibility of our family is on me.

You all familiar with this phrase, emotional labor? Have you heard of this?

Mhm.

A little bit.

When we think of work in America, a lot of times we think of who's going out to mow the lawn or go to work or things like that. But there's a lot of emotional load that is often invisible. What do you notice about the emotional labor in this household, Jason?

I think it definitely falls mostly on Molly.

Mhm. Did the two of you agree on that?

No.

No, I don't think we agreed on that.

It just usually falls to mom. That's part of the reason that you're crying, Molly, is that it doesn't feel fair. And it's not fair.

I know it's a lot. And I feel bad. I know I can do better.

Why haven't you?

I have offered to, and I still would like to, and I haven't done enough with that. I'd like to take over more of the bills, take care of that as well, but I haven't done anything about that.

Why?

Because it's not been a focus. I haven't focused on it and I should.

Jason says he hasn't focused on taking over the bills. But notice what just happened. Molly described their entire financial system. Daycare overdrawing her account. Venmo transfers, negotiating amounts multiple times a month. She is tracking when bills are due. She's tracking when his paycheck hits, even how long Venmo takes to transfer. And Jason's response, "I haven't focused on it." That's not very satisfying. In fact, that's not acceptable.

Here's what I'm seeing that they can't see yet. Jason completely disengaged. And not just from the money, but from Molly and the family responsibilities. I think in some ways even from himself. Meanwhile, Molly has fallen into the trap that is so familiar to many of my guests, especially women on this show, of carrying the mental load, of assuming the role of someone who has to ask permission of their partner and of being okay with a partner who doesn't actually act like a partner.

And I actually hate that. I hate when people play small with their money, but especially women, because I want all of us to be able to live a rich life. That is why I spend so much time talking about the taboo topics of money and gender and social class on this show. I want you to know just because your parents didn't teach you about money, you can still get very educated and live an amazing rich life. You can redefine how traditional responsibilities and roles go in a family. Just because one person earns more doesn't mean they have more power. You can decide what your rich life is.

And that is what brings me back to this couple. Not only do we see this very common and, in my opinion, dysfunctional dynamic, but she's not actually good at managing money either. This is a very common toxic cycle. One person, the avoider, opts out so the other person compensates by controlling everything, but actually most of the time neither one of them is very competent at money. You cannot live a rich life in this dynamic. You can't even manage a paycheck.

So if you recognize yourself in this dynamic, whether you are the avoider or the one who is trying to carry everything on your shoulders, please understand this. An unequal partnership with money always reflects something much deeper. This is not just about money. This is about something way, way deeper. In fact, the money is simply a symptom of much deeper beliefs. And today we are going to find out what those beliefs are.

If you filed a tax extension this year, I am talking directly to you. Please don't wait until October. I know it feels like it's ages away, but it's going to be here sooner than you think. And taking this time to plan for your taxes is a great opportunity. Don't wait until the last minute to get organized for your tax extension. Instead, work with Gelt to get a tax strategy in place right now.

Gelt is a modern CPA firm that helps your business take control of your tax strategy year-round. They help you think strategically, like how to structure your business, what key deductions might be applicable to you, and how to use the tax code appropriately. Right now they have two exclusive Q2 offers. The quick hit tax meeting, a 30-minute call for business owners on extension to identify everything that needs to be done before filing, and the refundathon, where Gelt will go back through your recent returns and identify deductions you missed.

Both of these offers are only open for a limited time. So if you are self-employed or you're a business owner, now is the time to get proactive about your tax strategy. The smartest tax move you can make right now is not waiting until January. Gelt is taking on Q2 clients now and there may be money from the past year still on the table. Find out if you qualify at joingelt.com/ramit.

There's a pretty cool TikTok trend going around right now that I really love. It's called admin nights. Basically, you get your friends together, you get some snacks, maybe some drinks, and you do all the infrastructure stuff in life that most of us skip over. If you're going to set up an admin night, here's my suggestion for you. Use Zoc to book your health appointments and you will be done fast.

Zoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love. They have over 150,000 doctors across all 50 states in 200 plus

Specialties including mental health, dental, primary care, whatever you need. Just filter for doctors based on insurance, location, ratings, even virtual care options, and Zocdoc appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. You can look through your options, book an appointment, and you are done. If I needed to find a new doctor today, Zocdoc is what I would use.

Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to zocdoc.com to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's zocdoc.com/ramit. zocdoc.com/ramit. And I want to thank Zocdoc for sponsoring this message.

If you or your partner has fallen for a scam, I want to help. Especially if you've recently fallen for an email or text scam, or you've gotten bad financial advice from someone who did not keep their promises, or maybe you just have not even told your partner because you are embarrassed. If this is you, I want to talk. Apply for free coaching with me by being on my podcast. Apply today at iwt.com/apply. That's iwt.com/apply.

Can we go back to a recent time where you remember the last time that you were talking about money?

It was basically in the kitchen and—

Do it as if I'm there just watching. Go ahead.

Okay. So, after we pay rent, then what's left?

I just paid the rent. I barely have enough money to get to next paycheck. I'm not sure where it all went, but I felt like I was lucky to have rent this month, which is strange because we had an extra check this month.

Yeah, this was supposed to be a bigger month. Not only do we have an extra check, but we got our deposit back from our last rental. So, this should have been a huge month, I thought in my mind, which is crazy that I was like, "Oh, we could put a certain amount of money towards some of our credit card debt." This would be the month.

Yeah, I kind of did too. I don't know what happened. I'm not sure.

You just have no idea.

Not really. The money just kind of went. I don't know what happened to it.

You can look at your account.

Right. Yeah.

And see.

I will look at it. I'll check it out. I'll see. I'm pretty sure it's no different than any other month, which doesn't help, but I don't know what happened to it.

Okay. So, what happened in that conversation? If you both zoom up and you almost look at the two of you as players, how would you assess what just happened in that conversation? Molly?

What happened, and what happens a lot, is I get really mad. I kind of give up halfway through the conversation because I already know that I'm not going to get any clarity. And he just gets mad because I feel like he thinks I'm pestering him about something that is trivial. Somewhere in him, he knows it's not trivial, but the fact I'm questioning him and that he knows I don't trust him, he gets defensive and mad. I go into a fugue state almost where I'm just like, this is pointless. Yeah, he can't do what I need him to do.

All right, Jason. What about you? If you zoom up, how would you assess that conversation? What happened?

I think many of these conversations just put me in a defensive state of mind, and I just kind of shut down. I'm like, well, it is what it is. The money is there, not there. I don't know what else to say about it. It got spent on something. And I think part of it is being caught off guard with something I wasn't prepared for. I'll admit I'm not always in the mood to talk about money, because it never seems to go anywhere. That is a very typical cycle of how the conversation goes. Typical example.

She'll bring it up, you'll be defensive, and then it will dwindle off. In other words, no decisions are made. You just spin and then it comes up two, three, six weeks later again.

Right. That happens quite often.

Does that feel good? Seems frustrating.

Very frustrating.

Yeah. I feel like it's a big part of why, for whatever reason, our finances—we should make enough money to not be in our position that we're in. And that's why it's just a confusing web. I don't even know how to unravel it.

Jason, do you ever actually go and look into your spending and find out what happened?

Not very often. Downloaded Rocket Money and added that to my account.

And where did the money go?

There's still a lot of spending that's unaccounted for. So, I need to dig deeper. A lot of average daily spending.

What? Hold on. That doesn't work on me. If you downloaded Rocket Money, which is a great tool, then it shows you line by line where the money went. So, where'd the money go?

Daily spending, whether it was groceries, eating out. Definitely subscriptions.

Can we just look at Rocket Money? Do you have it?

I have it on my phone. I suppose I could—

Yeah.

Pull it up.

He has, which he didn't mention, he says a lot of it goes to subscriptions, but he has double subscriptions.

All right. What do you got, Jason?

I do.

Okay.

I do have some doubles. So, for subscriptions, I have, let's see, one, two, three, four, about 12. No, 14 subscriptions.

How much is the total?

4,368 per year for 18 subscriptions.

4,000?

4,368 per year for 18 subscriptions.

I just knew it was bad, but I even did not know it was that much.

Not even close.

Okay. And Jason, did you know?

No. No, I did not.

So far, we know that you spend over $4,000 a year on subscriptions alone.

Right.

What does that tell you?

Seems like I could cut that amount by a good bit, I would hope.

How would you describe your familiarity with your own spending, Jason?

Not great. I think I could be a lot more familiar with it.

All right. And Molly, how would you describe your familiarity with your own spending?

I guess I know pretty much what I'm spending. Yes.

Okay.

Oh, good. A concise answer for you.

You wrote something that caught my eye. Quote, "I don't fully trust him about how and where he's spending money because he hasn't been super forthcoming in the past about investing in the stock market." Can you tell me more about that?

I knew he was using Robinhood and doing day trading or options and things that I'm not super familiar with. To be honest, I didn't know how much money he was funneling into that because that's just not how our accounts work.

How much money are we talking about?

I don't know.

It was a hundred, times 200 a week.

200 a week. So 800 a month.

Yes, that's right. I just wanted to make sure. Yeah.

And I didn't know that.

Jason, what was going on with these investments?

So, what Molly is referring to with the automated withdrawals, that was just a long-term investment account. I wasn't actually doing any of my own option trading or anything like that. It was just—

What was the options trading about?

So, the options trading was on a different platform, and I had a friend that was actually very successful last year. So, I started getting some tips from him and I put a little money here and there. I started with probably $500 and I think I only ended up adding another thousand on top of that.

Mhm.

Either way, not as successful as him. Still had a lot to learn. So, kind of up and down.

Did you loop Molly into what you were doing?

As far as the options, I didn't explain it a whole lot. As far as the money I put in there, I probably wasn't that specific.

Why?

How much? I guess I probably thought I was going to do better than I did, and so I expected to have better news.

Can I ask you guys a question? No. Just speaking to you for a little bit so far, you feel very disconnected on money. Extremely disconnected.

From each other or from money?

Both.

Yeah. We were having a conversation about this a little bit the other day, and we were talking about how we went from being two single people in our 40s three years ago to basically married with children. And both of us have traveled a lot when we were younger and just kind of lived a single life. And I feel like I'm still spending money that way, and I haven't been able to switch gears in the way that I should. Basically living as if we're single. And I think that's part of the problem.

Yeah. I feel like in some ways, the way I think about our finances together, it just feels like a disaster. And every time I put a lot of energy into figuring it out or unraveling it, it just seems like it goes nowhere, and then I just tune it out or something. I don't know.

That's actually very common. That's very common. All of us, me included, we like to pay attention to stuff where we feel competent, where we feel good. And so for some people, that's parenting or cooking or fitness or money or even cleaning the house. But conversely, we don't like to spend time on stuff where we feel incompetent, where we feel out of control.

Yeah. Honestly, if there's something in your life that you avoid because you're just like, I don't like this. And it's like, I don't like using Pledge on this wood table, who cares, right? It's not going to hurt anybody to a large extent. But relationships and money and safety for the family, those are things that are actually important. So avoiding them, it's going to get you one way or another, whether it's today or tomorrow.

Right. Molly, you also wrote in your application, quote, "We have similar goals, but for some reason when we talk about our present money issues, there's hurt and frustration." What are the similar goals that you both—

We don't want to be poor.

Are you poor?

No. No. But we are probably pretty low middle class.

I feel paycheck to paycheck is borderline.

We're probably pretty poor, I guess.

We don't want to just be a little bit over living paycheck to paycheck. I think we both want to really make some money. Like I Will Teach You to Be Rich. We want to be rich.

Oh, absolutely. We'd like to be well off. I would like to be well off. I'd like to be successful.

Like actually.

Retire early. I know that sounds crazy once we look at our numbers. At least to me, it seems like a long hill to climb. But yeah, I would like to figure out ways to make good money and just be a lot better off than we are now.

Okay. Molly, you agree or see things differently?

Yeah, we want to travel. We want to spend time with our daughter, and we have a similar goal in how we want to get there with real estate and stuff like that. We have a shared vision on what that looks like, I guess, but not on how to get there. Wait, we have a shared vision of what would be great, and I think on how we get there, there's similarities, but the literal brass tacks of the daily work it takes to get to even next year is where we—maybe next year we have a similar goal. We want to buy our first house, but how to get that is where things, I think, are different.

What we would want to do first, we'd be looking at multifamily units that need to be remodeled. Some sort of state of disrepair that's not too far gone where it would make sense to make improvements and eventually resell or rent.

Okay. And where are you on this process? Have you run numbers? Have you purchased a property? Where are you on that?

Basically we're at the research stage. I've looked into different ways of how we would get a loan, like FHA 203(k). That's been my fun project to research.

Is that a goal or is that just something that one day you'd like to have? Sounds like a dream.

I guess it hasn't moved from dream to goal yet, to be honest.

I kind of like the way you put that, Molly. That's a good way to put it. We've talked about starting with some sort of real estate investment maybe next year, but as far as actually putting any kind of plan together, very little.

Mhm. And what does that feel like?

It feels like we're not going anywhere. We're just still stuck in the same place.

Mhm.

Yeah. I keep having this thought where it's like free beer tomorrow. It's just always tomorrow. It's always next year.

The goalpost is always moving, I guess, if there ever was one.

This reminds me of an email I sent out to my readers years ago. It's one of the favorite responses I've ever gotten. I asked the question to my email list, "What is something you claim you want to do, but you actually don't do it?" And one woman wrote back saying, "I claim I want to run three times a week, but I don't." So, I replied to her. I talk to a lot of people on my email newsletter, and I said, "Why don't you just go for a run once a week?" And she wrote back basically incredulous. She's like, "Why would I go for a run once a week? That doesn't do anything." And I thought, "What a perfect example of human behavior." She would rather dream about running three times a week than actually go for a run once a week.

How many of us do the exact same thing in different parts of life? We would rather dream about living this multimillionaire life rather than actually read I Will Teach You to Be Rich and Money for Couples and take control of our money. That's Jason and Molly. They would rather dream about real estate investing rather than save $250 a month. They'd rather talk about retiring early than figure out where Jason's last paycheck actually went last month.

I like dreams. I encourage people to dream bigger. I want them to tell me what they really want, but I always go one step further. I want a plan to reach those dreams. Without a plan, you're just fantasizing. That's not my job. This isn't the Ramit Sethi fantasy show. My job is to help you engineer a rich life. And that's what I'm doing with my own life. I'm here to engineer a rich life while I'm alive.

If you want to go to Japan, tell me when. Tell me where you're going to stay. Tell me what you're going to do, how much it's going to cost, and how you are going to set that money aside. Fantasy is something that feels good to think about, but a plan makes it a reality. Children fantasize, adults plan.

If you want to learn the skill of turning your dream into a reality, you don't have to do it alone. You can join my money coaching program. I will show you exactly how. This is one of the most valuable skills you will ever develop. Join at iwt.com/moneycoaching.

And now let's look at their numbers. All right, let's take a look at the numbers here. I'm going to throw them up on screen. Let's go with Molly first. Molly, can you read the word in bold and the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

Sure. Assets, 28,000. Investments, 23,482. Savings, zero. Debt, 46,640. Total net worth, 4,842.

What do you think about those numbers?

I was mainly focused on that debt number. I don't like that number.

You don't like it? Okay.

Way higher than I realized and seems like a lot.

What did you think it was?

I thought it was closer to roughly, and this is mostly guessing because I haven't really looked at all the numbers, about 18.

I knew that you were 46.

18.

So it's more than double what you—

A bit higher. Yeah.

I think we should mention here too, part of my problem is that I had better credit, and so both of our vehicles ended up being in my name. My credit cards that I've used for our family for big purchases or big things, it's all in my name. So a lot of the big debt, it's all in my name. So that's why I'm aware of that.

You're aware of that?

That's why I'm aware of the numbers more than he is.

The amount of debt.

The amount of debt we have.

It sounds like Jason has bad credit. So, Molly took on all the debt and now the debt is in her name.

Yeah.

And by the way, all the emotional labor and having to manage it is all in Molly's name. And Jason's like, "Cool, I get a vehicle and I don't really have to worry about it."

I agree. I don't think it's fair.

Yeah, it doesn't feel fair. And it's probably why I'm angry.

Tell me more about that.

Well, I just feel like I've had to process. I feel like a lot of my

Resentment and anger alone because I don't want to be that person and I don't want to be that for our daughter. But I am. Yeah, I'm just kind of mad. I just feel like it'd be great if one of these big things was not on me. But I also don't know if I can. He's never stepped up to change it. I would have to be the one to get him to change. Okay, now you're going to do this. It's still me guiding him through it, I guess. Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe not. Maybe there's other ways.

Maybe.

But I think we can all sense your resentment. Jason, I can sense your detachment from this. It's kind of like, I'm not connected to the money. I send over money once in a while. Can't send over what she wants, so I negotiate. But she deals with it and I should probably be better, but I'll do better. I'll try to do better. That's essentially the conversation so far. Would you both agree or disagree?

No, I agree.

Yeah, I agree.

That's what it's been.

You think you want a soft mattress. You think you want to jump on your bed among 58 pillows in a Ralph Lauren catalog and sink into the mattress. No, you don't. I have slept in many different beds. Some of them look so beautiful. I love the fringes on the pillow. But the minute you lie down in that soft-ass bed, that's why your back is hurting in the morning. And I know because I intentionally chose to buy a firm mattress from Leesa, which I sleep on every night.

Leesa has a lineup of beautifully crafted, high-quality mattresses. Whether you sleep on your side, your back, somewhere in between, they've got a mattress that's built for you. And from the first night, you're going to feel the difference. They use premium materials in every mattress and they are designed for full-body support. Every Leesa mattress is assembled in the US and it comes with free shipping, easy returns, and a sleep trial of 120 nights. Plus, they have a helpful sleep quiz to figure out which mattress is the best fit for you in under 2 minutes.

Go to leesa.com for 20% off mattresses, plus an extra $50 off with promo code RAMIT, exclusive for my listeners. That's leesa.com. Promo code RAMIT for 20% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off. Support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout. Leesa.com, promo code RAMIT.

The number one financial question I get from parents is what account should I open up for my kids? And truthfully, investing for your kids is not the first thing you should be doing as a parent. Your kids have time for their money to grow. You have much less. So, the first thing you want to do is make sure that your retirement plans and savings are dialed in, including making sure your family is protected in case something happens to you.

One option I recommend is getting term life insurance from our friends at Fabric by Gerber Life. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. It's made for busy parents like you. All online, on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under 10 minutes, often with no health exam required. If you've got kids, especially if you're young and healthy, now is a great time to lock in low rates. They have flexible, high-quality policies to fit your family, all with a 30-day money-back guarantee.

So, even if you have life insurance through your employer, it may not be enough to protect your family, especially if you leave your job or get let go. Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at meetfabric.com/ramit. That's meetfabric.com/ramit, and use my link so they know I sent you. Meetfabric.com/reath.

Policies issued by Western-Southern Life Assurance Company. Not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions.

Jason, can you read off the combined gross monthly income, please?

Gross monthly income combined is $11,900.

What do you both do for a living, Jason?

I am project manager slash site superintendent for a residential construction company.

Okay. And Molly?

I work remotely doing HR and benefits, and then I work for my friend's deli on the weekends, and then I stay home with our daughter.

Got it. The HR role, is that part-time?

Yep, it's remote, part-time.

Cool. All right. Combined on an annual basis, the two of you as a household make $142,800. What do you all think about that household income?

I think considering where we live, it's average.

Considering what part of the country do you live in?

We live in the Lake Tahoe area.

Yeah. All right.

But not on the expensive side.

But not up on the mountain. Can I go out on a limb and just guess that you all make a lot more than the median salary in your area? Would that be fair to say?

I bet we do.

Maybe we do. Okay.

Okay.

All right.

Know for sure.

So, you make $142,000. What do you think about that number, Molly?

It's a total that I had never thought I would make personally. I didn't think that would be attached to me.

Yeah. What's further confusing is that the two of you don't combine your money. So, we have Jason making $9,500 a month gross, or roughly $120K a year approximately, and then we have Molly making $2,400, which is considerably different. So the thing is, every month you can see the dynamic that has been set. Molly has to go to Jason. Please transfer this money. And then what is Jason's role?

Look at my account and send what I think I can send.

How do you know what you can send?

Well, based on what I think I'm going to spend the rest of the week, which is hard to say.

I can't even get a straight answer myself. How do you think Molly feels?

I know. I don't like it either. I wish—I need to change. We need to change our setup.

You do need to change your setup. But what is happening here is, Jason, do you believe that you have control over your own behavior?

Yes.

So then why do you say we need to change our setup versus I had changed my own setup last week?

That's a good point. I feel like I could initiate way more than I do.

But you don't. Why?

Because I feel too tired at the end of the day. I don't take enough time. I'm sure I have a lot of excuses I could say, but—

Yeah.

Bottom line is—

I think you just don't do it because you don't have to.

Maybe that's it.

Molly's just going to come beseeching. Oh, please, please, please. And then so the role of the beggar, that is the role that has been established. Please, please, please transfer over money for our household. And then Jason is the decider. He crosses his arms and he says, I can do this much, but not this much. That's the way it's going to be. That's the roles you've established for yourselves.

The rest of the CSP, I'm going to move through it quickly here. Your fixed costs are at 77%. Typically, that number should be at 50 to 60%. At 77, you can immediately understand why you feel stressed out. Bottom line, which leaves less for the rest of your money. Let's see where it's going. Investments, 3%. That explains why you have relatively low investments for your age at a total of $23,000. Savings at 1% or $125. Well, we know that's not true. I bet you set that up in the last two weeks. True or false?

Well, that's a fun one, is that actually it's an automatic transfer and they always end up spending it.

The reason that you don't have any savings is that you don't save money, and you have a young daughter.

Yeah.

Okay. And finally, let's look at guilt-free spending. 25% or $2,200 a month. Is this number accurate?

I actually had to adjust it because I went back over everything the last three months and we've had some big months because we moved and for a lot of reasons. But it does change. But it was, on average the last three months, probably at least that. Yeah.

You all find that when you talk about money, you don't give each other a straight answer?

I don't think we know as much as we should. I think that's part of the problem. I think we both operate in a similar way, which is not in hard—

Not in specific details. It's—

A lot of feeling.

A lot of feeling. A lot of—

Guessing.

Mhm. I think I'm going to spend this much next month. I'm not sure where the money went. And on and on and on. You all know why you are able to do that, right? A couple that's making a third of what you make, they don't have the luxury in operating the way you are.

Mhm.

They track it.

Right?

They have to know. They can't be like, "Oh, I didn't realize I'm spending $4,000 a year on subscriptions." That's just not an option.

Exactly. Yeah.

So, your income in part has allowed for you to become sloppy with your financial setup. But that's not all because you all could make double or triple and it would still be the same dynamic here. The two of you do not talk about money regularly. You certainly don't do it proactively. It's not positive. I want to understand a little bit more about how you were raised, but I'm going to guess that you did not have great financial role models for thinking ahead, planning long term. Okay. Molly's smile indicates that I was right about that. Jason?

Definitely not.

There's no worry about failure. I don't think that, basically, to put it bluntly, I don't think you've felt the pain of actual failure, like running out of money and not being able to feed your family.

Yeah.

I don't think that's happened.

No, no, you're right.

I would like to just pause for a second. What are you noticing already in this conversation?

We're not aligned in our finances in the way that we should, and that we need to spend a lot more time working on them together.

Okay, Molly?

I don't know. I in some ways feel more hopeless right now than I did at the beginning.

Tell me more.

I guess I feel like we're just so not aligned. And neither of us—we're both bad at the same things.

Which is?

Which is being, I think, responsible when it comes to our finances. Being responsible when it comes to having boundaries and making sacrifices. We could have gotten ourselves out of this situation much sooner, but neither of us did. And almost combined, we're even worse.

When Molly said she felt hopeless looking at their numbers, notice what I did not do. I did not try to make her feel better. The truth is that they've dug themselves into a really serious financial situation. And I don't think that either of them have truly suffered as a result of that. Let's take a look at the facts. Jason thought their debt was $18,000. It's $34,000. He was off by basically half. All of that debt sits in Molly's name because he has poor credit. He's spending $4,000 a year on subscriptions he didn't know about. And he was secretly day trading, hoping to surprise her with gains that never came.

This is not acceptable. They don't need someone to tell them it's going to be okay. They actually need the gift of consequences. Remember, in life, suffering is not always something to be avoided. Any Asian or Indian person here is like, "Yeah, what are you talking about? Life is suffering. That's why I suffered studying so hard in high school."

I was telling my nephews the other day, I took them on a college tour at Stanford and they are in the midst of SAT prep and we were talking about it. How's it going? I asked them, and they have it tougher than I did because they have the allure of these addictive phones. I did not have that back then. But one thing I shared with them was I worked really hard on my SATs. I took it multiple times. I took a class. I really studied. And when I think back to all the work that I put in, it was hard. But I don't remember all those hours. What I do remember is getting a good score, getting into Stanford, meeting friends who have become lifelong friends, getting these amazing career opportunities, and all of the things that came with working hard.

Did I suffer studying for the SAT? Yeah, it was hard. Did I suffer getting really good grades? Yeah, it was really hard. But sometimes suffering is not something to be avoided. It's actually something to be embraced. Do you know why Molly and Jason have not embraced suffering? Do you know why they haven't even faced consequences? Because their income of $142,800 a year has actually enabled this dysfunction. They make enough that they've never really felt true financial pain. So, they've never really been forced to change.

As I always say, if you still have a roof over your head and internet and your phone, most people think it's fine. That's why they operate in vague feelings like I think I spent this much. I'm not sure where it went, because they can afford to stay sloppy. A couple making a third of what they make does not have that luxury. They have to track every dollar. But Molly and Jason do not. In fact, they're living like two single people who happen to have a baby together. Separate accounts, Venmo transfers, no shared vision. Deep down, I think they know this isn't sustainable. And that is why they dream rather than plan. Now we need to find out if they are willing to do something about it.

I will say that the good news is any couple can change their dynamic. Any couple can. I've seen it happen in a lot of places. Molly, I actually don't mind that you feel even more hopeless now. I don't mind it. And that's why I'm asking you to tell me a little bit more. I want to hear you understanding the depths of the challenge here. There's no easy math fix where I go abracadabra and everything goes to the way it should be. Do you get that?

Yeah. I think reality has been setting in.

Okay.

There is no magic wand.

Good. That's great. That's actually the key lesson of life. There is no magic wand. It actually takes a lot of work and sustained consistency. Would you say that the two of you are good or bad at sustained consistency, realism, holding each other accountable? Good or bad?

Bad.

I can work with that.

Okay.

I can work with a couple that is honest about their shortcomings and open to making radical change. Actually, one of my favorite things to do.

Okay, good. I looked at your housing costs. Your mortgage, $2,000, utilities $425, which is a percentage of 20.2% of gross. That's not bad.

And we actually recently, we moved in September to a lower rent. It's rent. It's not mortgage. We actually moved to lower our rent. So that was—

Really?

Yeah. Yes, we did.

You specifically said, "We got to get a lower rent, so let's move to a smaller or less desirable place."

And we were talking about that for several months before.

I'm pleasantly surprised. How did you decide to do that? Most couples don't.

I think it's probably because it's the biggest glaring number—

Mhm.

That faces us for our expenses.

Truthfully, the biggest savings that anybody can have is reducing their housing costs. It's also the hardest one because moving, whether you're renting or certainly owning, is a big challenge. It's uprooting everything. Sometimes there's kids involved with school districts and on, so almost nobody does it. So I'm pleasantly surprised because it tells me you can do hard things. This is actually giving me more confidence about your ability to change as a couple.

Great. All right. You have debt. I want to understand this debt. You have $46,640 of debt. What kind of debt is that?

Let's see. 21 of that is two vehicles.

What's the interest rate?

The interest rate on the truck, I think it's like 4%. I actually don't know that one.

Fine. And what's the other?

The van is like seven.

Okay. All right. What else?

The rest of it is credit card debt.

$25,000 of credit card debt. Why?

Great question.

First one was moving across the country.

Yeah.

Then we bought some furniture.

When we moved, we did have to buy some stuff because we got rid of so much and we didn't want to move it across the country. So getting reestablished, I guess, cost money. But then a lot of it was unexpected bills, like we had to get a new transmission in our vehicle. We had to get tires and dog teeth pulled.

And then I have spent money on my credit card to cover daycare costs.

What? Why?

Because it would withdraw from my account and then it just goes to my credit card if there wasn't enough in there.

Why not get Jason to transfer the $9,500 per month in gross income that he makes?

Great question. I've told him before, we've had this conversation, Jason and I, where I'm like, just transfer the money to me regardless when you get it. I'll pay the rent. I'll do it all. And he's like, we should do that. We should. And then that's it.

That is a great question. I want to be able to transfer more and I need to spend more time figuring where all the money is going. I know I can do better day-to-day spending, but the money is not always there. There's a lot of food spending.

How much?

I might spend as much as $20, $25 per day.

All right. So, it's a lot of money. That's where some of it's going. Not all of it because you make $6,950 a month net. All right. Your debt payments are $1,375 a month. And did you tell me that's a minimum?

Probably should be. I think we should.

Why can't I get a straight answer?

Well, because I don't know what he spends.

Then Molly, why are you answering for him?

I don't know.

You've done this several times. Hold on. When I ask about the debt, you answer for him. When I ask about the vehicles, you answer for him. Why is it that you feel that you're taking on so much emotional load, but when I ask questions, you are the first one to answer it?

Because I feel like he doesn't know.

Well, why don't you let him try? Let him fail. What's the worst that would happen?

You're right.

And in how many other places of your relationship have you stepped up to save the day because you're afraid he doesn't know the answer?

A lot.

Do you see that you are perpetuating the very dynamic that has caused you to be stuck as we are talking? You guys know it's okay to say I don't know.

Maybe not.

I guess not. I guess not.

Yeah, that's an honest answer.

Yeah.

I actually find that the smartest people I know are very comfortable saying, "I don't know." Think about the dynamic that's happening right now. You guys came to me because I've written books on money and I know this stuff. It's okay that you don't know this. It's totally okay. That's why you're here.

Do you see what I meant when I said that money is just a symptom of how you feel about yourselves and your relationship? When Molly keeps answering questions for Jason, she's actually not helping him. She's protecting him from having to admit he doesn't know. And Jason is letting her do it because as long as she's the one managing everything, he can wash his hands clean of responsibility. She manages the money. She answers questions for him. It's not the dollar amount here. That's not the issue. It is their dynamic.

Molly gets to feel competent and in control. In fact, she has this virtue of I'm protecting Jason. Jason gets to stay disengaged. He gets to avoid discomfort. I don't know. I haven't thought about it. I don't know. Do you know this dynamic? Have you ever seen this dynamic? Are you in this dynamic? This is really common. Where do you think they learned it? We're going to find out in just a second right after this.

Mother's and Father's Days are coming up, and I have a great gift idea for you to give to them. Give them a subscription to MasterClass, this episode's sponsor. They have tons of great classes your parents would love, like developing good repeatable habits with Atomic Habits author James Clear, Designing Stunning Floral Arrangements with Maurice Harris, or People Intelligence with Vanessa Van Edwards.

We all love to see our parents focusing on something new, learning something new. MasterClass is an incredible way to do that. Unlike other platforms, MasterClass puts you in the room with the people who defined their fields. They're not just experts, they are the best in the world. MasterClass has plans starting at $10 a month, giving you unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and even me talking about financial wellness.

There's no risk to joining. Every new membership comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee, so you can try it out before you commit. MasterClass keeps adding new classes, so there's never been a better time to get in. Right now, as a listener of this show, you get at least 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/ramit. That's 15% at masterclass.com/ramit. Head to masterclass.com/ramit to see the latest offer.

Going back to your childhood, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

Very little talk about money. I had kind of a unique upbringing. I grew up in essentially what you might call a cult, a community where a bunch of families lived together, shared, pooled all their money.

Wow.

It was a whole farm. So had our own livestock, massive gardens, fed our own livestock from the farm as well. Some of the fathers worked in a town nearby.

Mhm.

And basically pooled all their money together though, just about all. And never really a lot of talk about money. I was always outdoors on the farm. Never really had to think about it that much until I was about 15 and then moved away. Got my first job working for a contractor and started to realize what money was all about. That was the same year that my dad actually passed away.

At 15?

At 15. Yes. So, I've never really got to see him in the real world. Never got any advice from him as far as how to use my money, what to do with it. As far as I remember, I think he only ever saved money. I don't think he ever invested it. He just had a savings account, saved whatever he could. Didn't grow up with a lot, but I never felt like that.

You called it a sort of cult. Was it a religious cult?

It was. You can look it up on Wikipedia.

What's it called?

It's called the Move. It's all over the world.

It's still in existence?

I guess it is in small pockets. I don't think it's as big as it once was, but it definitely is around.

Was it normal for people who grew up in this cult to leave and to not go back?

I think during my generation, because it was multigenerational, it definitely became quite a norm. Many people my age left and never came back.

Did your mom stay in it?

My mom stayed in it in spirit, but once my dad passed away, she moved. She wanted to be close to her relatives, so we moved back to the Midwest from Canada.

Got it.

Yeah. She still very much keeps in contact with many people from there.

Oh, sure. Okay. All right.

Yeah.

Understanding that money was not talked about when you were a kid, I get that. How much focus was there on thinking ahead, long-term planning?

I have a very clear memory of this because I was very surprised when we moved down to the Midwest. That was my last year of high school and I went from a tiny little private school within our own community to a public school with 460 fellow graduates. And I lived with my aunt and uncle because my mother and my two sisters only had enough room in their apartment for them. My aunt and uncle lived right down the road.

And the very first thing they started doing was, you need to go to college. You need to get all these. You're very bright. You can get all these advanced education classes while you're in high school. Blah blah blah. Start applying. This is what you need to do and you're going to do it. And I got scholarships. I got a full ride to college that year just from that last year of high school, which I don't know how that happened, but—

Wow. What do you take away from that? Pretty interesting, pretty impressive too.

I felt pretty good to get a scholarship, full ride, just in college. Honestly, like I say, I felt pretty good. I wasn't probably as excited as some people would be because I just didn't have that in my upbringing.

Do you get excited in general? Excited, physically excited?

Not often.

Yeah. Do you smile in pictures?

I don't smile often.

Molly, I noticed that you're nodding and you're noticing this, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

What are you taking away so far?

He gets excited, but we would be hard-pressed to know that he is.

Jason, why do you think I bring this up?

I think a lot of these financial issues that Molly and I have had brings up talks that never end well. And I think that by me not showing emotion, I often show that I don't care.

Yes.

And I think that has an emotional weight and effect on her.

I'm jumping in quickly because sometimes when couples are this disconnected, they need a visual tool to help them identify what they're actually feeling. So, I wanted to try something. I pulled up this beautiful visual called the wheel of emotions. I learned about this in therapy. It's a color-coded chart that breaks down feelings into specific categories that go beyond happy, sad, or angry. There are hundreds of emotions on this wheel. You can find it. Just search for wheel of emotions.

And I asked each of them to pick two or three words that describe how they feel about money in their relationship. Let's listen as they go through the exercise. It's very illuminating.

Can we just do a quick exercise right now? How do you both feel about money in your relationship? And be really honest. How do you feel about money? You could pick two or three. Feel free. Jason?

Embarrassed, resentful, and apathetic.

Thank you. Molly?

That's interesting. That's really interesting. I have two of the same of yours. Embarrassed, resentful, and then overwhelmed.

Wow, I almost picked that one, too.

Now, I would love for the two of you to discuss what you just learned.

I think the resentful one is interesting.

Yeah.

Between us, why do you feel resentful?

I think resentful in the fact that I feel like I'm working really hard all the time so that we have money. And I feel like I also want to improve in a lot of ways in our financial stability and our financial life together. So I feel like I'm being attacked sometimes and I resent that.

Hold on. Now toss the ball back to Molly, Jason.

What about you? Where does the resentful come from?

I guess I feel resentful that there was never a decision made that this is the roles that we would play. It was just assumed that because you make more money, this is where you would be and that I would be the stay-at-home mom. And we're two-plus years in, that I would still just have to take the brunt of if there's no school or if she's sick, that it would be just assumed this is where I would be.

Okay. Can I ask you guys, did you think you would end up in this dynamic with your money when you were younger?

I don't think so.

No. And what's weird is that I am, and I guess it's not weird because it happens all the time, but I am living my mother's role. It's just so bizarre.

You don't say. Tell me. Let's go back. What do you remember about your family? What did they say about money when you were younger?

I did not even really think about it until my parents got divorced. I knew we were not as well off as some of my friends because we lived in the neighborhood next to the rich people. But when we moved out, with just my mom and I, that's when I knew we were struggling financially, because that's why she had to work nights on top of her day job.

Ah, what did she say?

She told me she didn't want to take any money from my dad for alimony and that's why she has to get a second job.

Why? Why did she not want to take alimony?

Because she wanted to get divorced.

What do you make of that?

Now, I think that was the first time that she could have control over something she didn't have control of at all in their relationship. So, her deciding not to take money from him was almost like taking her power back or something.

And when your parents were together, when you were younger, was your dad the primary earner? And if so, what did your mom do? Did she work or not?

He was the primary earner and she was at home with us, but she went back to work when I was pretty young.

Okay.

Then she remarried and I had to move out of the state. Yeah. She ended up marrying someone that had a lot of money in a way of land and he never spent very much. She's very frugal.

What lessons do you take away from her relationship with money?

She has a very weird relationship with money. I don't like it. She told me that with my father she had no control. He said don't worry about it while he was racking up debt and kind of ruining his own financial picture and ours as a family.

When she remarried, she kind of took this role on as not wanting—she doesn't want to spend too much money. She hides, she squirrels away money that she can then give to us. She doesn't want to tell him. Although I don't think he would care, but that's how she feels about it.

Why does she do that?

She doesn't want to appear to be a gold digger, I guess, if you will, or that she's after his money. She doesn't want to appear to be greedy.

What image do you think you might be trying to uphold as it relates to money?

I think for me, I try to uphold an image of we're doing fine, we're doing okay.

And then you mentioned to me that you said it's ironic that I'm living my mother's life. What did you mean by that?

I've somehow gotten myself in this dynamic where I don't know where money's coming from and I don't know what's happening and I just have to be okay with it or be silently resentful of it.

Do you—

I probably am. Yeah, I'm maybe not so silent as she was, but I am resentful of not having control of more of our finances.

Do you have a relationship with your dad?

Oh, yeah. No, he's passed away three years ago. Four years ago.

I see. Okay. Oh, sorry to hear that.

He was in love with Disney World and we would go almost every other year, and it was never with money that he had saved up. It was always on the credit card and he would just go all out.

Oh.

All out. He loved spending money that he didn't necessarily have, although I didn't know that at the time.

And then did he rack up credit card debt?

Yes, a ton. He kept borrowing against his home, my childhood home, and then that got foreclosed. And then he had to file for bankruptcy on top of that. Luckily he had a pension from—he worked for the government. So that was what kind of saved him in the end, but he went bankrupt and never really planned for the future. Lived with my brother for the last eight, ten years of his life. Had dementia.

Yeah. So when he died, I got a small check from his life insurance and that was actually part of our moving costs. That went into us moving.

When you look back at money, young childhood until you graduated from college, what are the lessons that you take away from your experiences?

I had a very negative view of money. Like I said, the neighborhood I grew up in was a little bit more lower class. The really expensive houses were very close to where we lived and that's where all my friends lived. So I knew I was not there. And I think I internalized that into being like, I don't care. I don't care about money. I don't want it.

Mhm.

I know in my 20s that then translated to living very much by the moment and living experiences and spending everything I had to go out of the country and then coming back broke and thinking that I was winning because I was like, all these people are in the rat race and I'm living these experiences. I'm living life.

That's very perceptive. Okay. And did that change at some point?

It kind of changed in my mid-30s. It's kind of when I started to focus more on my career and kind of saw the writing on the wall. I wanted a family. I wanted to be more responsible.

And that's when that kind of shifted, and I was like, maybe I should have invested a little more into not just living for the moment.

You ever go to therapy?

I have. Yeah.

Oh, do you still go?

I haven't gone recently. No.

Okay.

And it was definitely when I was still single and I didn't have any kids.

What's occurring to you right now?

I actually am thinking about, I really wanted to have children, and I didn't see that happening because I was in my late 30s. And I remember my therapist being like, be careful what you wish for. She's like, getting a partner and a kid doesn't mean you're going to suddenly be happy. It's a lot of work, and a lot of that sometimes makes people really unhappy. I sometimes look around, I'm like, this is what I wanted. I got what I wanted, and I'm still unhappy.

That's quite profound. I'm appreciating you letting that moment sit here for just a second as both of us, and I think Jason as well, all three of us just grapple with the enormity of what you just said. The idea that we can really set this big intention. We can even make it happen. And as the old saying goes, wherever you go, there you are.

Yeah.

And it's not about having a daughter. I'm sure she's beautiful. It's not about being in a relationship, but it's about, am I getting what I wanted and what I needed? And perhaps even more deeply, do I even know what I want? Do I even know what makes me happy?

I don't think I know what would make me happy.

Mhm.

I don't know when there's the moment when you're like, and I know this to be true, but where I'll feel like I can take a breath and just kind of like, okay.

It's interesting. I notice you're crying at that.

Yeah.

Why?

Because I feel like I've just been holding on really tightly for a while, and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Molly says she got everything she thought she wanted, and she is still unhappy. I appreciate the honesty. Actually, I think that might be the subtitle for the American dream: I got everything I thought I wanted, and I'm still unhappy. So I asked Molly, after hearing that, if she could tell Jason directly what she needs. Listen to her response.

To me, it feels like you think I kind of spend money all willy-nilly, and if I were to get all of the money, say I was the one that was receiving all of the money that we spend throughout the month, that I would just spend it all. But I don't think you understand how hard I try to stay within certain lines. And I think you actually spend a lot of money without consequence. I think you spend a lot more money than you think you do without any thought to us as a whole. I need to have control of our finances. I need to be in charge of it.

It's quite interesting, Molly, that you said, "I feel like I've been holding on really tightly," but you also said, "I want more control over the money." How do you reconcile that?

I think I want to have more control because I don't trust him to have some of that. Coming up right now, and this happens a lot, I think about my mom and the way she was with money, and then my dad just gets a pass.

Oh.

When I think about that dynamic, my mom would get a lot of the brunt of my bad feelings about that time, and my dad would just get a pass because he wasn't someone I actually looked at as being responsible.

Make the connection to this relationship. Molly, go ahead.

God.

Make it. Say it out loud.

I'm trying to. It's all coming to me right now. And so, yeah, I guess I don't expect my partner now to make responsible decisions. I can't trust him to be responsible with our money because I've never seen that before. I guess it's never been modeled, and I don't see it in him now.

Jason, what would you say to Molly if you knew that she would listen when it came to money?

Molly, I think if I were to take over more of the bills, which we talked about, which I've never done, I would like you to know that I would be willing to take that off your plate. Reduce the amount of finances that you have to take control of and also share actual accounts where you have access to all the income. I think that would be something that you could trust me with.

Okay. What do you both think of that, what you just heard from each other?

I think it's a little conflicting views on how to do the money management in our home daily.

Mhm. I just know in the beginning you said you have everything in your name, which is a lot of responsibility. So I feel like I could share that responsibility more.

What I'm hearing on a positive side is that you're both willing to change the way you've set it up. That part is good. I think you perhaps are not thinking about the ramifications of some of these things. If one person is in charge of the money and then they get hit by a bus, the other person has no idea what's going on.

True.

And you have a daughter, so that's not a good position to be in. You also have zero dollars in savings. So, just to be very blunt, Molly, if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, what do you think would happen with Jason and your daughter?

There'd be a lot of scrambling for him to figure out a lot of passwords or who to talk to about literally all of our debt. And so, yeah, we're each playing, I feel like, a really individual role. I'm realizing it's not this group decision-making or group dynamic when it comes to our finances. We're both just doing our own thing.

Why are you not married, out of curiosity? No judgment, just curious.

For me, it was financial, to be honest.

Really?

Yeah.

Tell me more.

He had really bad credit, and my credit was really good. And when we had talked about combining, I kind of told him at some point, maybe this was before we had the baby, but I was like, I don't see having a contract together being the best decision for me. Financially speaking, it would not make sense for me to do that.

Can I ask a personal question? Feel free to not answer this. How were you uncomfortable getting married for financial reasons, but you were willing to have a kid together?

I think I didn't think it was going to happen. I didn't think we were going to get pregnant.

I would be happy to get married. I just never thought of it as a huge priority. I didn't think of anything in regard to financial. By the way, my credit has improved quite significantly since we met.

That's good.

That's true.

On my own, because we don't have anything combined. But I don't have any other reason than just didn't feel like it was one way or the other about it. I didn't feel like we needed to.

All right. So if this were to happen, if you were to be able to start to achieve some of these goals working hand in hand, it would feel great. What's stopping you from doing that now?

I need his help. I just don't want to do it all on my own.

Okay. Jason, what's stopping you from accomplishing what you want?

Not taking the time to make a plan and actually sit down and do it. I've done some of the things, but I could do a lot more.

What if you don't, Jason?

What if I don't? Then I feel like we're just going to keep going with the same cycle.

And then what will happen?

Then all of a sudden, we're 50, and then retirement is looming around the corner. Our daughter is going to graduate, and we're going to be stuck in the same situation but much longer.

And then what?

And then we're looking forward to an uncomfortable later life. Could be any number of things. Not good. Like moving in with relatives or not having money for our daughter to go to college or having no retirement fund, not doing any of the other things that we'd really like to do, like travel and actually have a rich life, an enjoyable lifestyle.

What about for you, Molly? What if nothing really changes?

To be honest, I don't see how we would be able to stay together. It's super harsh to say that, and I don't want that. But I wouldn't be able to live like this forever.

How long could you go?

Until it felt like there was no hope left. That sounds terrible. No, until, I guess I don't know. Until it really felt like the partnership is not partnering.

Well, it's not today.

No, it's not today.

And you've tried many, many times to get him involved. So the partnership is not partnering. So what else?

I don't know. I don't know when would be the point of no return.

Okay. I don't expect an answer to that very difficult question. But I do think that it is valuable to ask, what if nothing changes? And I think that that is worth discussing probably more with a therapist. It's not working because I can see your CSP. But more importantly, it's not working between the two of you. You're totally disconnected about money.

Let's talk about where you are today and where you want to go. When you think about your money situation, as we've discussed it today, what part feels like the hardest part to face?

The retirement and savings.

Okay.

Literally, as far as numbers go, we're trying to pay off our debt. That's our biggest first thing, which we do have a plan for, is to sell our truck. It's almost paid off, and I think we could get about $15,000 for it and then put that all towards our credit card debt.

You're going to sell a truck and put it towards your high-interest debt. This is the greatest day of my life. I never hear this. Never. I can't believe it. Well done. All right. Now, if the two of you can start to move forward in things like paying off your debt, what would that feel like to do it together?

Incredible.

I would think that would be amazing.

I could just feel the weight off my—I mean, it would just be a really great step.

We have talked about some of that in a way where we up our daughter's daycare to full-time to where Molly could possibly at least get a closer to full-time remote job, perhaps.

Great. I think that's an option. What about your work on the family finances, Jason?

I think I would like to take over more of the bills. I think I could easily help with that. Put them in my name so I'm the one that has to keep track of them.

I mean, that would be huge. Molly, what would it take for Jason to regain your trust?

I think it starts with weekly meetings and showing up for that. Picking a day that works for him where he's not too tired, because it's true he does come home midweek and he's worked a long day, and maybe not the best day to do that. So setting a schedule, sticking to it for the next six weeks would be huge.

And what happens in these meetings?

We can see how we are on paying off our debt. We can discuss any number of changes we made, such as dropping subscriptions, what bills we have for that month. Just basic things like that, too. It even helps, I think, just to know what we have month to month so we're not always wondering, like I am, what I have in my account and what I have to spend.

Can I add something to it? We don't operate on a weekly basis. That's not how we think about money. That's too short-term. You'll never actually achieve anything consequential if you're thinking on a weekly basis. Second, you don't think about how much you can afford to send to your partner. The money goes there first, and then what's left over after hitting all of these other goals is what you can afford to spend on things like eating out. Total recalibration of the way you think about money. Right now, lunches and all this other stuff is coming first. It's actually the opposite. How's that strike you?

No, I agree. I think that's the way it needs to be.

All right.

I would love to set up a joint account.

Yeah.

I think that would be the easiest way.

I agree. But, yes, how come it's so easy all of a sudden? How come you haven't already done this? Tell me the answer to this question, because that is the real thing going on here.

I haven't because I haven't felt the urgency, or I guess I haven't realized that that's probably the best way to avoid the constant issues that we have with money when we talk.

In fact, why is it that a guy like me has to come in and tell you this for you to believe it?

I've been used to running my own finances my whole life. I suppose that's part of it. And I make money, and I put it in my account, and then I disburse it. And I think it's just been a habit. And I guess adjusting to family life financially hasn't been as smooth a transition as I thought it would be. I've been apathetic. That's why I picked that word, because I know I have been, and lazy in a lot of ways. I work hard at work, but I don't take it home as much as I should.

I appreciate that. That is candid. That, to me, is the truth. And Molly, what role do you think you play in this dynamic?

Hold on. Before you answer my question, were you struck by his response?

When he said lazy, I was actually surprised he said that, because I've kind of thought that. I don't know if I've ever said that. I've definitely never told him that.

Why?

I think it's scary for me to think that I'm with someone that's lazy.

Wow.

Well, I don't.

Y'all are really peeling it back today. This is honest. Molly, talk more about that. It is scary for me to think that I'm with somebody who's lazy.

I think I'm trying to hold together an image of where I want us to be or where I think we should be, and I am not facing the reality of where we are and who we are showing up as in this relationship.

Where was it that I heard this word image before? Who else had an image?

Oh, my mom. Yeah, totally. Totally. It's like just ignore what's happening if it appears to be fine to other people. Yeah.

I find this to be quite startling, quite honest, quite surprising that the two of you have never actually been this honest with each other before. It's almost like we can be delicate and polite ourselves right into total disconnection.

Yeah.

I don't want to operate a relationship on the surface level. I don't, not with my wife or my partner. So I find all these things to be happening here, but I see you both making progress step by step, talking about it, using different words than you used at the beginning of our conversation. That part I like.

Yes.

Yes. All right. I'm going to put these numbers up on screen. Your debt payments, $1,375, are considerable. You also have $785 of car payments. It's doable with your income, but it adds up. You have $1,100 of groceries. Again, it's doable, but it adds up. What's the vision here? What are you going to try to accomplish?

Can we reduce our fixed costs so we can get an emergency fund and some savings? I would love to do that for a start.

Yeah.

Love it.

And pay off our credit card debt.

Fantastic. Molly, what do you say?

Yeah. I think the first step, I really want to sell the truck and get the credit card debt down.

Love it. If we sold the truck, then it would be $365 less a month for the car payment.

And less for the insurance.

Yep.

You're down now to 72%. Good progress.

Well, definitely subscriptions. I have a couple of doubles that I just found when I looked at it. Plus, we don't need nearly that many.

Just tell me the number. Right now, it's $545 a month.

Okay, I think we can.

Go ahead. No, Jason. Stop answering for him, Molly.

I could drop it down to $180.

You can drop it to $180. Okay. And then what about Molly?

$35.

35 bucks.

Yeah, most of the stuff is in his name.

$215. All right, we're down to 68%. Not bad. Not bad.

I do have to make an addendum. Our health insurance is going up. So the insurance line, it's going to be probably $365.

You're back to 73%. Looks like we got to take something else off. Groceries.

We could go down to $900 for sure.

All right, 900. We're down to 70%.

Still so much.

What are you all thinking so far?

The debt payments is a lot.

Yep. So, let me give you some numbers on your debt payments. I'm just talking about your credit card debt at $25,000. Okay. If you pay that off at $1,000 a month, it's going to take you 37 months, which is three years, and you're going to pay $12,000 in interest.

If, on the other hand, you pay off $2,000 a month, you're going to pay it off in 15 months with $4,700 in interest. Okay? So, you can see that the numbers become quite different. Now, if you put $15,000 of that truck sale towards the credit card debt, then $2,000 pays it off in five months with $730 of interest. What do you notice?

A lot less interest.

And a lot faster.

A lot faster.

Yeah.

Can I ask you something? You got anything else in that garage of yours that you can sell?

Yeah, a couple things.

Yeah, we have a full garage.

You know what? 70% of the American households I talked to have a bunch of stuff in their garage that actually could sell for something meaningful.

Yeah.

Is that you?

We do have some things that we've been meaning to sell. Yes.

This is the easiest thing you can do ever. Get rid of it. Okay, great. The more money you do now, the more you can pay that debt off quickly. All right, we got to go to the other stuff on this CSP because it's driving me insane.

Investments are at 3%. Savings are at essentially zero. Meanwhile, your guilt-free spending is 25%. I suspect it's actually higher than that. What does this tell you?

This is clearly us living in the moment again, just how we have always lived.

Yeah.

So, what do you want to do?

I want to make some sacrifices and really tighten our budget. And I'm ready to spend the next year or so, however long we need to, I guess, to really get ourselves into a better spot.

Let's get specific, too. I'll skip coffee every day and no lunch. How are you going to eat?

Yeah, I'd have to probably spend a little more on lunch stuff for him if we were to do that. Yeah, there would be some change. I think $1,000 would be safer for groceries, more realistic.

Mhm. Just being honest there. Yeah.

I appreciate the honesty. We need it. And then we said that you eat out 12 times a week. Let's just average that because it was, let's say, 20 bucks for lunch, and then coffee is what? Like eight bucks.

The ones I get are five, not more than five.

Five. All right. So, we got 20. So, just for easy math, can we just say an average of 10?

I think it's fair.

All right. And so, that's 120 a week. So 480 a month. I don't know. Are you going to zero? That feels a bit aggressive. I don't think you're going to go to zero.

I can definitely go to zero. I can definitely go to zero on lunches. I know I can. I've done that plenty before. I got into a habit recently. I'm 100% sure I can do that. Coffee, I feel like I'll go out for coffee more occasionally. Not all the time.

So $240 off your Conscious Spending Plan. Let's take a look. Oh, that's not going to cut it. Can I show you a different way to do this? Yeah.

What you all need to do is literally pay yourselves first, which means put the amount that you want to save every month there. Start with that. Don't start with, oh, I got to have coffee. No. If you have coffee money left over, great. Otherwise, you don't get coffee.

Yeah.

So, how much goes into investments? The number recommended is 5 to 10%. You're in your 40s and you have very little investments. You need more than 10%. I'm going to offer the number. 15% it is. That's what happens when you don't pick a number. Ramit Sethi picks.

Okay. Okay. 1,100 right on the money. Boom. There you go. How much you want to do for savings? 5 to 10% is recommended. You all need more than that.

10%.

Nope. Go higher than that.

12%.

Oh, we need more than that. Okay. 15%.

Good. Great. All right. You all have $135 a month to spend on everything. Now, I don't think that's realistic. Do you?

No.

Maybe not. Actually, until now, I don't even still fully understand where your money is going on a monthly basis. Do you?

Not fully. No.

So, then why not simply start over, create a joint account where the bulk of the money—the gross income that comes in every month is $11,900. The net is $8,650. Why not literally take $8,000 and send it to the joint account? Each of you can have 300 bucks to do whatever you want with. Go enjoy whatever you want. But your future is together. $8,000 every month net comes into that joint account, and that's the money you use to decide where it goes.

When that money is in one joint account, suddenly it's going to be very clear where that money is getting spent. I 100% agree.

I agree.

I think that's the best.

All right.

Okay.

That's it. That's all we need to do. Just put it in a joint account and we're golden.

Yeah.

What's going to happen then?

Well, yeah, thinking about it that way though, investment and savings first, that makes huge sense to me. And then what we have, whatever we have, we have.

I want to add one more bit of good news for you. Once you pay off that debt and you pay it off aggressively, if you take that $2,000 that you were putting towards debt and you invest all of it, you literally just flip a switch and you send it to your investment account every single month, you will have not 1 million but 1.75 million in 25 years. That actually starts to be really cool.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's amazing. Remember that 1.75 million does not include any raises that you might get. It does not include your ability to pay off the debt faster by selling bikes, etc., etc. It doesn't include any upside. It also doesn't include any downside like a layoff, which is why I want you to have a savings. But do you start to see it starts to become more comfortable, more achievable if you can operate as a team?

Yes.

What do you think?

I see that. Yes. I like that. Yeah.

I'm looking forward to it.

All right.

I like the reality that you're speaking here.

Yeah. So, let me tell you where there are some holes in your plan, because there are some holes. Yeah. And you two are going to need to figure it out together.

Okay.

First of all, right now you still only have $135 a month on discretionary spending. That's simply unsustainable. That is 2%. And from a couple that currently is probably spending more like 30%, that's just impossible for you to achieve. I think you two might be able to realistically achieve 10% if you were totally dialed in as a team. Completely dialed in. That 10% is like we eat out once a month and we basically never go out for coffee or random stuff. Everything. And maybe, just maybe, we take a very modest vacation once a year. But 2%, it's not possible. So, you're going to have to make some adjustments in your CSP.

Okay.

You may have to dial down your investment contributions, but that's money you're not going to have later.

Yeah.

So, that's a tough one. You may have to dial down your savings. I really would not like to see that, but that might have to happen. Or more likely, you probably have a bunch of money you're just spending without even thinking about it.

Yeah. I bet you there's 300 of that just absorbed into the ether. Find it, fix it, put it towards your discretionary spending.

Okay.

Next up, just a couple things. As far as it currently stands, you cannot buy a house. No time soon. As far as real estate investing, I don't know where you would get the money. And taking out a loan, it's all great if it works, but if it doesn't, then you're really... So, would I do that? I know as a GC you have a lot of experience to be able to do that and save money.

I would be extremely cautious about doing that anytime in the near-term future. I wouldn't even think about it until I had a clear trajectory for my retirement to have enough, until I had at least, at least 12 months of an emergency fund. I'm talking big. That's a lot of money.

Yeah.

And everything was dialed in with the two of you as it relates to money. So basically, I wouldn't think about it for the next five years plus.

Your daughter, you can't afford to pay for her college. Not now. And the money you are putting aside for her, whatever that number is, I would rather have you put that money towards your debt. She has time. You two have far less. She has the opportunity to take out loans or go to a community college or get scholarships. The two of you have none of those things later in life.

It is possible if you all were to triple your household income, you could do those things. Yes. And you were to get totally dialed in on all the investing and saving and all that. Yes, you could do it. But you're in your 40s, and until now you don't even share accounts. So I think it's important to start being realistic with what is likely and what is not. Early retirement, probably not likely. Could you? Sure, if everything went right, but I don't make a life plan based on every single thing going perfectly right.

Mhm.

Are you hearing the urgency of what I am sharing with you?

Yes.

Yeah.

Molly, how are you feeling right now?

Bummed.

Mhm.

It's pretty bleak.

That's an interesting word you chose. Bleak. Bleak. Because?

Because I guess a lot of our plans to get ourselves in a better situation kind of feel like they're not going to be possible.

Oh, you mean the real estate investing one?

I thought that would be a good leverage for us because of our combined talents. I just worry, and even if it's a dream we can do in five years from now, that would be cool. I just see it as a way to help get us farther along than we can with just, like you said, if I made $50,000 more a year, that's not going to change things.

Can I make an observation?

Yeah.

So, first of all, I don't mind that you're upset. I would be upset in your situation as well because this is probably the first time you're hearing somebody just give you some blunt feedback.

Yeah.

First of all, I'm not the ultimate authority with money. Nobody is. You two will decide what is right for you. And if after a few years you go, "Hey, we actually want to do this real estate investment and we have the skills and we've carefully run the numbers," that's totally up to you.

But more importantly, I actually don't consider this bleak. Bleak is if you don't do anything differently for five years, then your situation is bleak. And I mean it. It gets really bad really fast. You all still have time. Bleak means you can't ever eat out. You can still eat out a little bit. You have to be way more thoughtful about it.

Yeah. My family growing up, once every six weeks or so with a coupon. I wouldn't call it bleak. It was a big deal for us to go out to pizza. So that's not bleak. You two are going to end up with at least $1.75 million if you are totally dialed in, possibly more. And one other thing, if you actually do increase your income by $50,000, Molly, after getting all of this stuff dialed in, that makes a massive difference to the overall financial picture. Like gargantuan.

Okay.

That could actually allow things like real estate investing, etc. So, don't discount that. But right now, if you were to do it today, it would be largely meaningless.

Okay?

Fix this. Fix what is happening. It's almost like there's a fire in your house and you two are focused on building a deck. The deck. Put the fire out. We'll deal with that later. That is my approach.

Okay.

All right.

Yes.

Okay.

Love that approach.

Jason, what about you? How are you feeling hearing this?

I love the idea of getting a combined account and savings and investment first. I love that whole plan. I think it's hugely helpful just to my thought process. It's kind of like a puzzle. We both like puzzles and we have to figure it out together.

Totally. We have this much. We know that we have to prioritize paying off the high-interest debt because it's drowning us. So, we already have this much taken away every single month for the next roughly six months. What else can we do now? And then what can we change on month seven? It's like a puzzle. It's a three-dimensional puzzle. I love the way you describe that.

Can I say one thing?

Yeah. I just thought about our powers combined. If we're both motivated and working on this together, I just know that we could get some momentum that would make us both feel really excited and want to just see the fruit of that labor. I know we would, our powers combined. That's what I keep thinking. We could make some real change and real awesome things happen.

I agree. I agree. Do you agree, Jason?

I agree. I definitely agree.

Amazing. The two of you working together.

I asked Molly how long she could keep living like this. She couldn't answer. She is finally seeing what we have been seeing this entire conversation. Jason's disengagement goes beyond money. It's about everything. And her response, which is to take on the debt in her name, to try more and more to stack on responsibilities on her shoulders and manage everything alone, simply perpetuates this.

But I also noticed that Jason called himself lazy. And that was quite interesting. On one hand, I appreciate the candor. On another hand, people who are not behaving as good partners often employ this strategy of admitting something as a way to cleanse themselves of responsibility. If I can be really blunt, I'm not interested in you admitting you're lazy. I'm interested in what you do about it.

Molly admits she doesn't trust Jason to be responsible with money because she's never seen it modeled. Not in her dad, not in her partners. That's a brutal realization. Neither of them knows how to be responsible with money. They didn't have role models who could teach them. Okay, fine. I hear that. If you have never seen what it looks like to be a responsible, loving partner, then it's unlikely you just trip and fall your way into it. But you've got to be able to learn. There is an infinite amount of cheap and free information online. There's resources everywhere. They had a chance to talk to me. Now it's up to them.

I will say they moved to a cheaper rent without me telling them to. They already have a plan to sell the truck and pay off debt. And when I showed them it's possible to have $1.75 million if they work together, maybe they saw the possibilities. Do you think they can do it? I actually have their follow-ups for you right now.

Hi.

Hope you're all well. I think we had a couple-day emotional hangover after the...

Yeah, there was a little bit. It was good though.

It was great. It was a lot.

My biggest surprise from the conversation, I think, was how in-depth we got about our personal relationship.

Yeah.

Versus just talking about money.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that was really important and really eye-opening and very helpful in a lot of ways. Also brought up a lot of things that I wasn't aware of.

Not even money related. But I think it was good. That was probably my biggest surprise too. I didn't expect us to be so vulnerable and honest about bigger-picture stuff, that money is a little bit of a reflection of things in our relationship. So yeah, I would agree.

Biggest takeaways for me were, I guess, just how urgent it is to start saving. I knew that cerebrally, but I think just the conversation about retirement made things very real. And having numbers of what, if we want to get to this certain target for retirement, how much we need to save each month. I think that was a real big takeaway for me and just made it very real. I guess also the reality of the fact that we need to really stick to that for a while and not necessarily buy a house.

Yeah.

And just...

Really tighten our expenses. Stick to what we learned during the interview.

It makes sense now. I've been thinking about it. It's like we just have to get this right for a while and automate the way our finances work and the way our savings and our bills and all that stuff, get that just so dialed that it will make sense. I feel like we'll be able to come up for air and be like, "Oh, this is what this feels like when you're not just in survival mode."

Right. I think we definitely want to open a joint bank account, run all our money through there first so we can easily see everything together.

To elaborate too much on that. And today is Sunday, so we're doing our first meeting after this video. We're going to do our first financial meeting. We're going to do it on Sundays when our daughter is napping and talk about this stuff, and then moving forward into the week, take what we've talked about into the week, which I think will be super helpful.

I wanted to give a little update since we recorded. We've had some steps forward. We've had some setbacks, but overall, I feel we have a lot of forward momentum in our financial life together. The biggest change isn't even really about the numbers, but how we talk about money. And we can have a talk about our finances without feeling judged or getting defensive or honestly just avoiding it altogether. And that has been a huge shift for us and has changed our relationship completely.

I did lose my job at the beginning of the year, which was a setback, but weirdly, it actually shook us out of a cycle that wasn't working anyways. And I did find a new job recently where I'm making more money, so that has felt like a big win.

We have been holding regular money meetings, not perfectly, but consistently enough to matter. We're selling the truck soon, which is going to pay off a huge chunk of debt, and credit card debt specifically, with the goal of being completely out of credit card debt by June, which is massive for us.

I've also took all of my old retirement accounts from past employers and rolled it over into a new account, so it's not just sitting idly anymore. We've created new benchmarks for savings for retirement, which was a huge thing. So that has felt really incredibly relieving. But more than anything, most importantly, we have a plan now. And that alone has felt so huge and honestly life-changing.

We're both just so incredibly grateful to Ramit, to this experience and to the team. I started the money coaching program, which has been incredible so far, and we're still feeling the support, and that's just been super helpful for us in our journey. So we're just so thankful. Thanks. Bye.

Hi, Ramit. I want to share an update since our recording. Things have definitely improved for us. We're having financial meetings much more consistently now. They're far more comfortable, collaborative, and a lot less tense. I genuinely feel like we're on the same team when we talk about money.

I've taken on personally more responsibility with our household finances to help lessen the burden on my partner. And that shift, I think, has made a meaningful difference. I've been asking more questions so I can be more informed and involved in our finances. And I think that's helped me feel more engaged and accountable, and it's helped us operate more like true partners rather than just avoiding tough conversations.

I've increased my retirement contribution by a few percentage points and plan to continue raising it over the next couple of months until I reach at least 15%. Also, I've been using Rocket Money a lot more intentionally, which has really been helpful in tracking spending and staying proactive.

I think overall we're collaborating in a much healthier way, and there's more openness, more teamwork, and it feels sustainable. And I think we're really building momentum. So thank you again for this opportunity, and thank you so much for spending your time with us. Appreciate it.

Listen up. If you want my help with your specific money questions, there are only two ways to get it. First, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply. Or second, you can join my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In that program, you get access to live virtual events, monthly group coaching calls, live Q&As, and an amazing huge community of other people like you. Check it out at iwt.com/moneycoaching.

Article published September 29, 2026