$210,000 a Year, $106,000 in Debt: Ramit Sethi on Trust, Guilt, and a Couple Who Avoided Money for a Decade

Overview

Kristina and Erin have been married for ten years and are raising two children in Toronto. Between them they earn about $210,000 a year. Neither knew that figure before the episode. They also carry $106,000 in debt, have roughly two weeks of savings, and say that neither of them trusts the other, or herself, with money. In this episode of I Will Teach You To Be Rich, Ramit Sethi works through their numbers. His main argument is that the spreadsheet is not the core problem. He believes that until the couple can talk honestly about money and act as a team, no plan will last. The session covers Kristina's $50,000 NFT loss, Erin's emotional spending, the scarcity and Catholic guilt both women grew up with, and a concrete plan to redirect money toward debt and savings.

27 min read

The Numbers Up Front

Before the conversation begins, Sethi reads out the couple's Conscious Spending Plan. They have $64,000 in assets, $228,251 in investments, $5,000 in savings, and $106,000 in debt, for a total net worth of about $191,000. The spending breakdown worries him. Fixed costs take 79% of income, which he calls "quite high." Investments are 1%, which he calls a red flag. Savings are also 1%, and guilt-free spending is 19%.

He frames the episode with a complaint he calls an "allergy": the phrase "investing feels like gambling." In his view, people who say this have never read a book about money and use the phrase as an excuse not to learn about investing, which he calls the way real wealth is built. He adds that some so-called investments really are gambling, and names crypto rug pulls and NFTs as fads and traps. That sets up one of the episode's central stories.

"Stupid," "Nonexistent," and Avoidance

Asked how the word "money" makes her feel, Kristina answers "stupid." She connects money with numbers, and numbers have been hard for her since elementary school. She says spreadsheets are her nightmare. When she tries to fill one out, the figures get jumbled, she loses track, and she wants to throw her laptop.

Asked about their relationship with money as a couple, Kristina says "nonexistent." There are unspoken conversations they know they should have and don't, and she calls them "avoiders." Money is a means to an end. They like nice things, like getting the best for their kids, and like treating other people. But she describes money as an imposition rather than a support: they don't take vacations and don't own a home because, as she puts it, they don't have money. Erin says they avoid the subject until a big, unavoidable expense forces them to deal with it. Discussing it gives her a sense of failure, a "tightening," and guilt and shame, especially because both see themselves as high performers everywhere else.

The debt, Kristina says, came from "living." During her years as an entrepreneur, they put things on credit cards when they couldn't afford them, and she drew on a line of credit for business and personal purchases without knowing how a line of credit differed from other borrowing. About half the $106,000 is on credit cards. When Sethi asks about the plan for the debt, she says they don't have one, "that's why we're here." Both describe the debt as feeling heavy, and they know the interest makes things worse. Kristina says they have tried plans before that never came to anything. She also says she knows "the story we tell ourselves is not necessarily reality," and that at 42 she feels she shouldn't still be having this conversation. Asked whether they tell themselves such stories about money, both agree they do, "until it's really bad," and then they "freak out."

An Unpredictable Income, and a Fear It Won't Last

Erin says the tension around money comes from instability. Kristina's income has been up and down for years. Kristina has been an entrepreneur for about eight years and helps people build personal brands. This year is her best so far: about $79,000 year-to-date, and she expects to finish just under $100,000. Erin works in marketing.

In their application, Kristina wrote that she had finally started making money in her business, but that neither of them believes it will last. When Sethi asks why, she says it hasn't lasted before. When she has had money she didn't manage it, and when she earned for a stretch she never figured out how to make it consistent. She describes this as a fear that it will happen again.

Sethi then asks each of them whether she trusts the other with money. Both say no. He asks whether each trusts herself. Both shake their heads. Kristina says they had never said this to each other out loud.

The NFT Story

Asked why Erin doesn't trust her, Kristina says she hasn't been trustworthy with money. Her main example is NFTs. She got "really deep" into NFTs and the surrounding crypto space and spent roughly $40,000 to $50,000 they didn't have, part of it borrowed on a line of credit that she still owes. On paper, the position rose to around $900,000 at one point. She never sold, and it fell to "like nothing." She says she had no idea what she was doing.

Erin says it was the first and only time something like that happened without her knowing. Kristina told her only after the position had roughly broken even and was doing well, at about double or triple what she'd put in. Erin says she didn't realize how volatile the market was, so the gains didn't worry her at first. When the decline came, both say it happened very fast, "bull to bear overnight." Sethi thanks Kristina for her candor and says he can see why the episode made trust hard for Erin. He also directs a rant at "NFT bros," saying the only difference between them and Kristina is that she admits it.

Erin's Spending: Sourdough Crackers, Gifts, and "Spending With Emotion"

Kristina's distrust of Erin centers on food and gifts. They buy organic bananas and $7 bags of sourdough crackers, chosen so the crackers have no seed oils or preservatives. Kristina doesn't think they need to spend that much on food. She also objects to Erin's habit of giving gifts, often beautiful or expensive ones, and says it's a trust issue because they've discussed it and nothing has changed.

Erin says that over the past year or two she has tried to curb the urge to give gifts and has looked into where it comes from. She calls herself a very emotional person who leads with emotion, and says she sometimes spends with emotion: she wants people to know how much she appreciates or loves them. She has also noticed that she sometimes spends to "solve" things. When she's anxious, she buys something for the house that she thinks will help.

Sethi says the step from "I'm emotional" to "therefore I spend a lot" doesn't follow for him, and that she isn't being fully honest with herself. He suggests that underneath it she may be spending because she's anxious, worried, or wants to be liked or loved. Erin says all of that rings true. He then suggests rewriting the story. If you're going to pick a story, pick "I'm an emotional person, therefore I invest 34% of my income," or "therefore I pay off my debt aggressively," or "therefore I talk about money with my partner every Sunday."

Asked whether the lack of trust makes it harder to talk, they say talking about money is like pulling teeth. They don't know what to say and don't want to hurt each other's feelings. Sethi describes this as a cycle that feeds itself. He can offer "fancy math," he says, but if neither partner can say something like "when you do that, it makes me feel disappointed," they won't get anywhere. In his commentary, he says that until they build competence with money, which then leads to confidence, nothing else matters. He could fly to their house and give them a line-by-line plan and it would fall apart within weeks.

Story Versus Reality: The Hidden $210,000

Kristina was so anxious about the Conscious Spending Plan that she set up a ChatGPT project to guide them through it. She admits she overcomplicated it, and in the end they simply entered their numbers. Looking at the totals, Erin says she likes the sheet but feels lost about what to do next. Kristina says that before this, if asked about their investments, she would have said "zero." They actually have more than a quarter million dollars invested. Sethi calls this the gap between story and reality.

Then comes their combined gross monthly income: $17,560, or about $210,000 a year. Neither raised a hand when asked if she knew that number. Kristina guessed around $150,000. Erin guessed just over $100,000, depending on how Kristina's business was doing. Erin says it's surprising because it doesn't feel like that much money. Kristina says she now wants to know where it's all going, but then hears a voice telling her she doesn't know how long it will last. Sethi calls that the voice of scarcity: money comes, money goes, so spend it now.

Why 79% Goes to Fixed Costs

Sethi goes through the spending. The savings line is 1%, and all of it goes toward gifts, not a savings account. Guilt-free spending is about $2,465 a month, and Erin thinks the real figure may be a bit higher. Their savings would cover two weeks if income stopped, which he calls terrifying with two children. A single person might be able to move back in with their parents. With kids, the stakes are much higher.

Their fixed costs are about $10,000 a month. They rent for about $4,000, 25% of income, which Sethi considers not bad for a high-cost city. They are the only people among their peers who rent. A couple of years ago they looked into a mortgage, but on Erin's steady salary alone it wasn't enough for Toronto prices. Their landlord has just sold, and they've received an eviction notice. Comparable places will likely cost over $4,000 for less space. They currently have "two and a half" bedrooms. Childcare is about $1,500 a month. Debt payments are about $1,200 a month, and they say that's the minimum. The debt is spread across two lines of credit and two credit cards. Asked how long it would take to pay off at that rate, they say "never." Sethi says it would be decades, if ever, and asks bluntly who earns $210,000 and pays debt forever.

"We Work Too Hard to Feel Like We Don't Have Anything"

Asked if they're sick of this, the tone changes. Kristina says they work too hard to feel like they have nothing at the end of the day. Sethi says this is the first time he has heard real frustration from them, as opposed to money being a minor irritation, and that "this is unacceptable" is a different starting point. Kristina says renting with older kids has shown her how much they want stability and more control over their future. They are ready, she says, to "move heaven and earth."

Why Previous Coaching Didn't Stick

The application mentioned several past advisors, including a money mindset coach and a financial coach. Asked what happened, Kristina says "nothing." They didn't prioritize it, didn't know how to talk about it, and didn't want to hurt each other. It felt like they were doing it, she says, but not as a team: "we were just kind of sitting beside each other." Erin becomes emotional. It all feels like failure to her, and she says they're in a cycle that won't end until they end it. Asked what makes today different, Kristina says she's fed up. Sethi points out that they've managed this way for years and still have a roof and food. Erin answers that they are stressed all the time, get sick, and have no time for what they want to do.

In his commentary, Sethi describes a type he calls "coach collectors," people who move from coach to coach, conference to conference, and program to program, and who, in his experience, rarely make major changes. He suspects the couple showed up to past sessions, nodded along, and never truly engaged. He compares this to Instagram followers who tell him they've read his work for nine years and were "finally convinced" to buy his book. They see the relationship as adversarial and treat buying a book as if it were doing the work. He says buying a book or attending an event is only the first step. No coach can fix this couple, because the problem is that they don't trust themselves or each other.

He also notes that they keep their finances almost entirely separate. They have no joint accounts, and they agree that's simply how things were when they got together. They recently hired an accountant, Taranpreet, for Kristina's business and their personal taxes. Seeing everything on paper has been helpful and shocking. But Erin notes that they're still reviewing money after it's gone. Sethi says accountants are for taxes and larger annual decisions, not for tracking daily guilt-free spending. The couple has to do that themselves.

Childhood Lessons: Scarcity, Silence, and "Do What You Love"

Kristina's family went through a period with very little money before her parents reached the middle class. Money was never discussed, yet the message was "do what you love and money will come." Sethi says that's unusual to hear from people who haven't had much money. She thinks her parents wanted better for her. She describes herself as an intense child who struggled with mental health, was shy and anxious, had a speech impediment, and was labeled "a dumb kid." She believes her parents may have been careful not to be too hard on her. She has seen a psychiatrist since age 12 and calls her access to care in Canada an extreme privilege. She has never brought up money or her difficulty with numbers in treatment. Sethi suggests there could be a conversation there. The lessons she absorbed: money won't always be there, you can get it through very hard work, things are expensive, and you have to be careful. She sees the same pattern in her adult life. You can earn it, but that doesn't mean it stays.

In his commentary, Sethi shares his own story. In seventh grade he moved from being near the top of his class to being the worst student in a math class full of more gifted peers, despite working hard. He later found the same gap in computer science, navigation, and even packing a suitcase. He says you can respond to that in two ways. One is "I'm not good at this, I'll give up." The other is to accept you won't be great, put in the work to build basic ability, and find workarounds. He says he is still not great at calculus. He considers Kristina clearly smart, self-aware, and articulate. Her problem, he says, is that she has believed for so long that she isn't smart enough at this one thing that she stopped trying. He also argues she is recreating her childhood lesson that money is scarce and won't last, through an inconsistent entrepreneurial income and borrowing to buy NFTs, without realizing it.

Erin is the oldest of five. Her father had a good job for years, and her mother stayed home for 16 years. When Erin was 16, her father, who is bipolar, had a nervous breakdown and never returned to work. Her mother went back to work at a much lower level, and the family used the children's college funds to get by. Erin thinks her parents were good with money, but, as with the illness, the family didn't talk about it. She says they are still not good at that.

Catholic Guilt

When Sethi asks about a cultural or religious factor, Kristina points out that Erin was raised "staunch Catholic." Both were raised Catholic, and both are gay. Sethi jokes that he could have "checked the box" in five minutes. They say they feel guilt about nearly everything: whether they're good enough parents, close enough to family, doing well enough at work. Both see therapists. Asked if they can picture a life without daily guilt, neither can. Erin says she has never thought about it.

Sethi says this is why a money podcast has ended up discussing Catholic guilt. Their explanations, that they don't prioritize money or are bad with numbers, are probably true but incomplete. He compares it to looking at the world through smudged glasses and wondering why everyone else seems to understand something you don't. He then raises their children. The couple say they struggle with what to tell the kids because they don't want to pass on shame or a scarcity mindset. Sethi guesses their strategy is not to talk about money at home at all, and Erin partly agrees. Both admit they feel ashamed about money. Sethi says you can't teach children a healthy relationship with money without having one yourself, and they agree.

In his commentary, he says many people in his community build their identity around guilt. When he asks them who they would be without it, many have no answer. He argues that it's nearly impossible to fix money problems or live a rich life from a baseline of guilt and shame, and that money can be learned later in life, like a sport or a language, without becoming elite.

The 60-Second Truth-Telling Exercise

Asked what feels hardest, Erin says knowing what to do next and not falling back into old habits. Kristina says keeping the income going, and she immediately adds that the $210,000 figure is based only on her last two months, her best ever. Sethi names this as an invisible script.

Erin has been called "the stable one" because of her full-time job. She says she no longer accepts the role willingly. She believes in Kristina and took on the role to support her, but over time it became very hard. Asked if it's hard now, she starts to say it's easier because Kristina is "crushing it," then qualifies it, becomes tearful, and says "maybe" it still is sometimes. Sethi points out the hedging and says feelings are not always the most important thing in the room.

He proposes "Ramit's 60-second truth-telling": each partner says respectfully what she has never been able to say, even if it might hurt temporarily. Erin says she wants stability, security, and a future together. She wants to stop working so hard all the time. She misses Kristina because they're both so busy. She's proud of the entrepreneurship, but it has been very hard. Kristina says she knows this. She wouldn't blame Erin for resenting her, she recognizes the pressure she has placed on Erin, and she knows Erin can't leave her own demanding job while Kristina gets to do what she wants. Kristina says she wants to feel like a team and able to tell Erin things even if it hurts. She also notes that they "don't take any shortcuts": they buy the best of everything, Erin cooks elaborate meals, and everything is done "to the nth degree," which leaves no time to connect.

Sethi says it felt good, but he heard no specifics. When he asks what each needs from the other, the answer is "I don't know." Kristina admits it's strange that they don't know what they want.

Turning Feelings Into Numbers

Pushed for a goal, Erin says she wants to save $20,000 by January. Sethi says he doesn't mind that it's "picked out of thin air." With fixed costs of about $10,000 a month, that's roughly a two-month emergency fund. He normally recommends six to twelve months but calls two a good start. Kristina says she wants the debt gone. She hates "burning" $1,200 a month just to carry it.

Asked for concrete levers, Erin suggests assigning part of the guilt-free spending to savings, investments, and debt, and Sethi agrees. Kristina suggests cashing out some of Erin's stocks to pay off the debt. Sethi rejects this, saying they would be robbing their future selves and would have nothing as they got older. Kristina then says she wants to cut up her credit card. She has switched to debit, but until recently she used credit for everything to earn points while carrying a balance. Sethi reacts strongly. He says he has met guest after guest who keeps charging for points while in credit card debt, paying over 20% interest to earn about 1% back. He compares it to spending $50 to get a Happy Meal toy, and says that for anyone in debt, points should be the last priority.

The Income Question and a Plan B

Kristina's other suggestion is to keep earning more. Sethi asks what happens if her income drops. She currently earns about $8,560 a month, a run rate of roughly $102,000. Before these two months she earned about $5,000 a month, around $60,000 a year. When he asks what she could earn in a full-time job, she says "a buck fifty, maybe," about $150,000. He asks why she wouldn't close the business and take that job. She says corporate work is her nightmare and she doesn't function well there. Sethi says he isn't telling her to take a job, but notes that he would dislike $106,000 of debt more than wearing a key card, and that a $150,000 salary is one clear way to pay off debt quickly.

Later, he suggests a specific agreement, which Kristina should propose to Erin. She would commit to averaging at least $8,000 a month for roughly the next four to six months. If she doesn't hit that, she takes a full-time job, builds up savings, and returns to entrepreneurship when the time is right. He stresses that the terms can vary. Kristina calls it fair and realistic. Erin says what she really wants isn't just stability but a plan B, and that not having one has been hard.

Rebuilding the Spending Plan

The couple estimate their guilt-free spending. Kristina first guesses $400 to $500 a month on eating out. Sethi says people typically underestimate by a factor of three and assumes at least $1,000. When coffee is added, both agree $1,500 is plausible. Things coming into the house, including holidays and birthdays, are "a lot." He sketches rough figures, about $1,500 for eating out, $300 for Uber, and $600 for the house, and says he's likely wrong but wants to work with numbers. He argues that each of these purchases moves them further from the goals they just named: stability for Erin, being debt-free for Kristina.

Kristina proposes cutting guilt-free spending from 19% to about 7%, with half going to savings and half to debt. Sethi adjusts the spreadsheet live. Adding $1,000 a month to debt payments brings guilt-free spending to 11%, still about $1,465. Adding $500 to savings brings it to 8%. He then asks if they want to keep spending $150 a month on gifts. Kristina says no. Erin says it immediately feels selfish to put that money toward themselves instead of friends and family. Sethi tells her to imagine what someone good with money would do. He mentions that he uses Captain Picard for management problems, and tells them to use him for money: "We come first as a family unit." Gifts drop to $25 a month. Erin agrees, saying it won't be easy but she is willing. Sethi tells her, "All the easy decisions happened 5 years ago," referring to the credit card charges and line-of-credit draws. What's left is hard choices, and in his view, you either make them yourself or the world forces them on you.

His team's calculation for the credit card debt, assuming 20% APR because they're in Canada: at $1,000 a month, about nine years and nearly $60,000 in interest. At $2,000 a month, under three years and about $15,200 in interest. On a $210,000 income, he says, that difference should be manageable. Asked why it has felt so hard, Erin says they never attached numbers to it. Sethi says their feelings have "calcified" into identities, the good gift-giver, the lover of good food and a well-decorated house, and that changing feels like changing who they are.

With more going to debt, fixed costs appear as 86%, which he says is artificially high because debt payments are now around $2,200 a month. On rent, they decide not to pay more than they do now, even if that means a smaller place and fewer bedrooms. Sethi says changes like these compound, both financially and in how they see themselves: "I'm the kind of person that sets a goal and follows through." Groceries get a target of $800, and he adds that $815 is no reason for guilt. Erin admits she shops by recipe, not by price. The $200 saved is split between the emergency fund and debt, though he notes debt is probably the better choice mathematically because of the high interest. He describes an automatic transfer of about $725 a month into the emergency fund.

He says the riskiest category is the remaining guilt-free spending of about $965 a month. They decide to start by putting about $500 of it toward eating out. Erin argues that starting realistically and cutting further later is safer than setting a target they'll fail. Sethi agrees. He suggests they plan a month in advance, total up dinners and coffees including tax and tip, and give each partner ownership of specific numbers, such as $250 each for eating out, and one person owning the travel budget. When Kristina asks whether they need separate accounts, he assigns them to reread I Will Teach You to Be Rich together in print, especially chapter four on conscious spending.

"We'll Probably Be Divorced"

Sethi asks what happens if nothing changes in five years. Erin answers, "We'll probably be divorced." Kristina says she thinks Erin would leave her, and that they've had those hard conversations before. Sethi says this makes it more than an intellectual exercise: it has to work, whatever uncomfortable conversations it takes. Erin agrees they have no choice.

In his closing commentary, Sethi summarizes the plan as roughly two and a half years to pay off the $106,000, cutting guilt-free spending from about $2,400 to $500 a month, and no more credit card use while carrying a balance. He calls it simple but not easy. He says the couple were coachable, ran the numbers themselves, faced uncomfortable truths, and accepted that buying a house right now would make things worse. Whether this time will be different, he says, he isn't sure. It depends on their willingness to keep building trust through weekly conversations.

Follow-Ups: Weekly Meetings and a Move Back Home

In follow-up videos, Erin says her biggest surprise was how bad they are at these conversations. Their care not to hurt each other has done more harm than good. She wants to separate facts from emotions, make it easier for Kristina to raise money topics with her, and hold weekly money meetings. Kristina says the biggest surprise was the physical reaction both had to saying how they felt, and how much fear of disappointing each other had been driving their avoidance. She says the changes feel more manageable than she expected, and that the gap between $100 and $200 a month in one category "almost gamifies" things, because she can see it speeding up debt repayment. They had noticed themselves drifting toward accepting $4,500 or more in rent before the show. Now both are uncomfortable with that.

The last update is the biggest. With their eviction approaching, they chose not to pay more for housing and moved in with Kristina's parents, who live 15 minutes away and told them to take their time and save. Erin says it was a case of doing "the harder thing," something they tell their kids they can do, instead of spending money to make the situation easier. Kristina says her ego and pride fought hard against going back home, but they made the decision together after talking through what made them uncomfortable. They plan to rebuild their Conscious Spending Plan around the new living situation. Kristina ends by saying the biggest change is that they are trying to stop avoiding hard conversations, "so wish us luck."

I got really deep into NFTs. It went up to like 900 at some point.

$900,000? How much did it go down to?

Nothing. Didn't recoup.

You mentioned that you have $100,000 of debt. What's the plan for this debt?

We don't have one. Why we're here feels heavy. I'm a very emotional person and lead with emotions. So I think sometimes I spend with emotion.

There's a lot of shame. I'm 42. I shouldn't be having to sit down and have this conversation. All the things that we say to ourselves. Sometimes the story we tell ourselves is not necessarily reality.

You find yourself doing that a lot with money?

Yeah, until it's really bad.

If nothing changes in the next five years, what will happen?

I'll probably be divorced.

It feels hard. It feels like we tried. I think we're stuck in a cycle that's not going to end until we end it.

I think I have an allergy. And that allergy is this godforsaken phrase that goes like this: "Investing feels like gambling." You ever heard this phrase? Oh my God. The people who say this do not understand investing. They have never read a single book about money. They just hear the word investing and they know some crazy confusing phrases: 401(k), SEP IRA. So they equate investing to gambling in a Vegas casino. This is basically an easy way for people to justify not learning about investing, which incidentally is how the real wealth is created in this country.

And what makes this even more confusing is that some quote investments actually are gambling. They're not really investments at all. They're fads. They're traps. They're scams. Crypto rug pulls, NFTs.

Today, I'm speaking with Kristina and Erin, who have been married for 10 years, raising two children in Toronto. They make good money, but they have no system for their finances, which has led to years of avoidance. And there have been losses around NFTs. I'm looking at their Conscious Spending Plan. If you want my help with your own Conscious Spending Plan, join my money coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching.

Assets, 64,000. Investments, 228,000. Savings, 5,000. Remember, they have two kids in a high cost of living city. Debt, 106,000. Total net worth, 191,000.

And here is how they spend. Fixed costs, 79%, which is quite high. Investments, 1%. That's a red flag. Savings, 1%. That's a problem. Guilt-free spending, 19%.

What do you notice about their numbers? And if you were me, actually, what would you do? Put it in the comments below. I'm curious. Before you get any further in this episode, put in the comments, what would you do? Well, let's find out. Please meet Kristina and Erin.

Kristina, when I say the word money, how do you feel?

Stupid. I think just finances in general bring up that sense of, oh, I've done something wrong or I haven't quite figured it out yet.

Why is that?

I equate money to numbers, and numbers to me have always been a problem since I started doing numbers in elementary school.

Okay. And when you say you feel stupid around money, how does that show up?

Frustration, because I fear I'm not going to know how to answer a question or I'm not going to know what the next step is. And I get frustrated when I'm trying to fill something out, or spreadsheets are my nightmare.

Thank you. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah, it becomes very jumbled and I lose track and then I get really frustrated and I just want to throw my laptop.

What about for the two of you, your relationship with money? How would you describe it?

My first reaction was nonexistent. It's there, but we don't really have a relationship with it. There's unspoken conversations. There's conversations that we know we should be having and we don't. I think also included in the application, we're avoiders. We want what's best for one another and it tends to be more in the moment versus the long term.

You have the money because somebody makes a paycheck and you can spend it at a restaurant or things like that, but that's it. No real connection to it. It's just something we swipe our cards for. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, it feels like a means to an end. We like nice things. We like getting the best for our kids. We like treating other people, but it's been more of an imposition than a support to us. We don't go on vacation because we don't have money. We don't own a home because we don't have money.

Erin?

Yeah, I would say we tend to avoid it until it comes to those big things, those impactful things where, okay, you need to have X to do X when it comes to money, and then we try to tackle it as we go.

How do you feel when we talk about this?

Just that sense of failure. I feel like we're both high performers in every other aspect of life, that sometimes it feels like failure and it feels very emotional. Like a tightening. Like a tensing. The guilt and shame and just, yeah, I just feel bad.

Are you typically feeling guilt when it's other parts of life?

Yeah, I would say. Yeah.

All right. You mentioned that you have $100,000 of debt, half of that on credit cards. Where did that debt come from?

Living. We put a lot of things on credit cards during my time as an entrepreneur. When we couldn't afford something, we would just put it on credit card. When I needed to buy something for the business or buy something for myself, I'd take it out my line of credit.

What? A line of credit? Why that?

I don't know, and I didn't know the difference, to be honest.

What's the plan for this debt?

We don't have one. That's why we're here.

Oh, we're here so that Ramit creates the plan and solves it for us.

Yes. Yes. Wow. No. No. To learn. To learn. To learn.

All right. How does it feel to have this debt today?

It feels heavy. Yeah. Same. It feels heavy, and we know as interest rates and things, it doesn't help either, right? If you're trying to move in the right direction and you're stuck paying those payments, it's not helping you move in that direction.

We have tried to do things, but then whatever we've tried just hasn't worked or doesn't actually come to fruition. Like, that's a good idea. We should do that plan. And then I think part of when we're talking about the guilt and shame, immediately I go, "Yeah, we should." So why? What's the deal?

We've sat down with a lot of different people and a lot of different instances over the years, but there's a lot that comes with money for us. There's a lot of shame. There's a lot of, I'm 42. I shouldn't be having to sit down and have this conversation. All the things that we say to ourselves. And I know that oftentimes, sometimes the story we tell ourselves is not necessarily reality.

You find yourself doing that a lot with money?

Yeah. Both of you? Until it's really bad. And then what happens? And then we freak out.

Tell me about the tension in your relationship around money.

The tension is the knowing, the knowing that things are not great financially. The tension is the unknowing. Unknowing how to move forward. And the tension is just between us, we don't always know to have the conversation together.

I feel tension in my relationship around money, I think because it's been very, I guess, not stable over the last number of years. I think what Kristina wrote in her application is very true. It's been very up and down and can be unpredictable. So I feel a lot of uncertainty.

And who's been more unpredictable, you or Kristina's income?

Kristina.

Okay. Kristina, take me through your entrepreneurial journey. How long have you been an entrepreneur?

Eight or so years.

Okay. What's the most that you have made as an entrepreneur?

Right now, this year. That's like 79,000 year-to-date.

79,000 year-to-date. How much do you estimate you'll make by the end of the year?

Probably just under 100.

What do you do for a living?

I help people build their personal brands.

Okay. Okay. Wow, I was wildly off on that one. And Erin, what do you do for a living?

I work in marketing.

Okay. Kristina, you said, "I finally started to make money in my business, which is a great feeling, but we both don't believe it's going to stay." Interesting comment. Why don't you think that the money's going to last?

It hasn't lasted in the past.

Meaning?

Meaning, when I've had money, I haven't managed it. When I've been making it for a period of time, I haven't figured out how to make that consistently. It's gone away.

Got it. And so deep down you believe that's going to happen again.

Yeah, I think it's a fear.

Okay. Let's talk about the word trust in your relationship. Kristina, do you trust Erin when it comes to money?

No. Erin, do you trust Kristina when it comes to money? No.

Do each of you trust yourselves when it comes to money?

No.

Both shaking their head no. Gosh, that's a pretty tough thing to say.

Yeah, doesn't feel great. I don't think we've ever said that to each other. Yeah, not out loud.

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Kristina, why don't you think Erin trusts you with money?

I haven't been trustworthy with money. There's a number of examples, but one of them is I got really deep into NFTs and in that crypto space, and I spent a lot of money we didn't have. And I, on paper, made a lot of money. I was playing in a market having no idea what I was doing and blew a lot.

What happened when you found out, Erin?

I think that was the first time and the only time that something like that had happened where I didn't know about it. Our communication about that. So, yeah, it was hard. A little bit of trust there was just, I was unsure.

Hold on, how much money are we talking about?

Oh, like 40, 50 grand. It was not small.

50 grand in NFTs?

Yep. And how much did it go up or down to?

It went up to like 900 at some point.

$900,000? Okay. And then how much did it go down to?

Nothing. Didn't recoup by any means. I didn't sell. I didn't know what I was doing.

You held it. I just held. You held it to the moon except it went to hell. Yeah. LFG, bro. Wow.

You're the first woman I've met who was involved in NFTs. I don't know if that's weird to say, but I've never met a woman.

Weird to say. I know. I know. I know. I know.

So you had between 50K to 900K and then it went to zero, effectively to zero. When did you tell Erin? What was the price when you told her? I know it wasn't at 900K.

No. No, hell no. I think it was probably, yeah, way before that, but it was probably double or triple and I was like, all right, we're good. Don't worry.

You told me once you had made the money back that you spent. So she didn't tell me until it had kind of broke even, I think, right? I think you broke even and then it was doing quite well. So there was also this kind of, for me, unexpected, oh, okay, but not knowing how volatile the market is. So I didn't think about it.

What happened when it started to go down?

It happened really quickly. Yeah. And it was very, when they say it goes bull to bear overnight, that's what it felt like.

Listen up, you NFT bros. This is you. The only difference is she admits it and you're still broke with your stupid avatar that you put on Twitter, but then changed it eight months ago. I'm so mad right now.

Yeah. You're allowed.

To be here to help, not rant about anything.

No, it's all right.

All right. How'd you get the 50K in the first place?

Some was a line of credit.

Whoa. Yeah, it was really. You still owe on that? Yeah. Okay.

I appreciate the candor. I can see why, Erin, you would find it difficult to trust Kristina around money. I am curious because there was the reverse as well. Kristina, you mentioned you don't trust Erin around money. Why is that?

I don't necessarily think we need to spend as much on food as we need to spend on food.

Oh, wait. You said you like to buy expensive food. Is that right? What is expensive food? What's an example?

We buy organic bananas. We buy $7 crackers.

Now you're speaking a language I can understand. You're talking to a guy who does not know what the hell an organic banana is or how much it costs. That's not my, I mean, but talk to me about these crackers. What brand, what flavor, what kind?

They're made out of sourdough so that they don't have seed oils and preservatives in them.

Oh God. And how much do you get for $7?

Oh, like this much? Yeah, like a cup probably. Half the bag is full of air.

They're like, "We imported this air from the Himalayas." No, you didn't. What else?

I don't necessarily think that we need to gift everyone a gift that, one, a gift period, and two, that is the most beautiful or expensive thing.

Trust issue or I disagree with how she chooses to spend money?

I think for me, it's a trust issue because we've talked about it. We've talked about how I don't quite understand it or I don't think it's necessary. Okay. And it doesn't change.

I feel like over the past year or two, I've definitely done my best to curb my instinct to gift. So, for me, I think I've also

Tried to explore where that comes from. I'm a very emotional person. I lead with emotions, so I think sometimes I spend with emotion. I want this person to understand how much I appreciate them or how grateful I am or how much I love them. So I want to do this thing that's thoughtful, but I'm not necessarily going to say, "Oh, that's too much to spend on that."

Can I say that again? I just want to make sure I'm understanding what you said, because you just spoke a language to me that was like Martian. I'm a very emotional person, so therefore I spend a lot of money. Can you explain the two? They don't necessarily follow for me.

Yeah, no. I think something I realized recently is that I will sometimes spend to try to solve things, whether it's gifting or I'm anxious and if I get this thing that'll help us in the house, it'll be a solve of some kind. But it's not the right thing to do. I don't know if I'm really—I'm not making any sense.

I don't think you're being honest with yourself.

Okay. What you're saying is, I think if we were maybe peeling the layers back, we might say, "I spend money sometimes because I'm anxious or because I'm worried or because maybe I want somebody to like me or love me." How much of that rings true?

Yeah, yeah, all of it.

Okay. What you said is an interesting story. But to me it's just a story. I am an emotional person. Aren't we all? Don't we all have emotions?

Mhm.

And then the next part of the story was, "And therefore I spend a lot of money." Well, why don't we just flip that story and say, "I'm an emotional person, therefore I invest 34% of my net income." Why not that? If we're just going to pick a story, why don't we just pick that? I'm an emotional person, so I pay off my debt super aggressively. I'm an emotional person, so I talk about money every Sunday with my partner.

That sounds good.

Sounds like a better story.

Our story.

Yeah. Okay, with this lack of trust between the two of you, does that make it more or less likely for you two to talk about money?

I think you're experiencing it. It's like pulling teeth.

Yes. It's not knowing what to say. It's not wanting to hurt each other's feelings. It's all those things.

Ah, not hurting each other's feelings. I don't want to hurt her, but she doesn't want to hurt me, and now we have this cycle which is building upon each other.

Yeah.

It's actually very difficult. We can look at all the numbers. I can give you some fancy math, abracadabra. But if the dynamic persists where nobody wants to speak openly and honestly, even to the point of saying, "When you do that, it makes me feel unwanted. It makes me disappointed," we can't get anywhere.

Yeah, I think it's true. If we can't talk about it, we'll never be able to change it.

Did you catch that? I asked Kristina and Erin if they trust each other with money, and they both said no. Then I asked if they trust themselves with money. Also no. They answered instantly, no hesitation. And that really tells me a lot. When you don't trust yourself with money, you cannot make good decisions. Every choice becomes a guess, you play defense, you second-guess, or you just avoid it altogether. And that's exactly what I am seeing. Kristina lost $50,000 on NFTs, money she borrowed from a line of credit. Erin spends emotionally to manage her anxiety. Neither of them can talk about it without feeling like I'm pulling teeth.

And I want you to notice that until they develop competence around money, which then leads to confidence, nothing else matters. I could literally fly to their house and give them a line-by-line plan, and it would fall apart within weeks unless they made these changes. Remember, competence, then confidence. Let's see what their numbers tell us.

What was it like to do this CSP together? Wow, what's that big smile, Kristina?

Just the ridiculousness of the two of us trying to do something like that.

Why is that?

The way that I wanted to get my head around doing the Conscious Spending Plan was I created a project in ChatGPT that was going to help guide us through the Conscious Spending Plan because I was so anxious about it. I didn't know how to approach it. Because remember, numbers make me feel dumb. And if I feel like it's going to help guide me through it, then I feel like I can approach it better.

Fair enough.

I overcomplicated it.

So then how did you resolve it?

We looked at the numbers and we plugged it in.

Okay. All right, well, that's great. I'm glad you did. Shall we take a look at the numbers from your Conscious Spending Plan? Let's see here. Erin, can you read the words in bold and the numbers in full for this entire box, please?

Assets, 64,000. Investments, 228,251. Savings, 5,000. Debt, 106,000. Total net worth, 191,251.

All right. What do you think about those numbers?

I love seeing it. I really like the sheet a lot, actually. But now what? Where do we go? So I think I just end up looking at it and being like, I feel very lost on what to do next.

That's a candid answer. I appreciate that. And Kristina, what about you? What do you think about those numbers?

I think if you had said to me before this, "What are your investments?" I would've been like, "Zero. Nothing. We have nothing."

You have over a quarter million dollars in investments.

Yeah. Why the gap?

Story versus reality.

Yeah. Yeah.

This is like when people are like, "Oh my gosh, I live paycheck to paycheck." And then I look at their numbers and they're investing over $5,000 a month. Plus they have $4,500 a month on private school. I'm like, "I'm going to kill you with my bare hands right now." Ramit Sethi, best-selling author, convicted.

It's not worth the deed.

Yeah. All right. Let's go on to the income part. Kristina, can you read me your combined gross monthly income, please?

Mhm. 17,560.

That means your household income combined is $210,000 per year. By a show of hands, who knew that number? No hands have gone up in this room. Okay, cool. How much did you think you made, Kristina, collectively?

A buck fifty, maybe.

150,000, okay. And Erin, how much did you think your household income was, annualized?

Maybe just over a hundred. Give or take, depending on where Kristina was at.

Well, how does it feel to have found between $60,000 and $110,000 in your couch cushions?

Surprising, because it doesn't feel like it, because I think of the things we just talked about.

Okay. Kristina?

Now I just want to know where it's all going.

Good. Are you pissed? Are you shocked? Are you disappointed?

I think more surprised, and that's kind of money. So let's make that work for us. And then there's a little voice in the back of my head that's like, "Well, you don't know how long that's going to last."

That's the voice of scarcity. It never has, it never will.

Mhm.

So money comes, money goes, you better spend it right now, because you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. That's that voice. Familiar, right?

Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah.

$210,000 is an extremely high income at a pretty young age. It's great. It's great. What I would like to do now is to try to make sense of it. So let's go and look at your expenses. Let's look at where your money's going so that we can understand. Then we'll have everything we need.

Fixed costs. Erin, what is this number here?

It is 79%.

All right, fixed costs are 79%. That's a bit high. Investments, what's that number?

1%.

All right, that's pretty low. Savings, what the— It's 1%, but the reason I'm saying "what the" is not that it's 1%. We could fix that. It's that the 1% of savings is going towards gifts. There's no money going towards a savings account. The only savings are going towards gifts. That explains why there's not much in savings. It actually all makes sense. One plus one equals two.

And then finally, we have guilt-free spending. 19%, or $2,465 a month. Is that number accurate?

Yeah, I'd say so.

Yeah? Erin?

I think so. If not, maybe slightly higher.

I want to point out a couple things that came to mind for me. First off, you have two weeks' worth of savings in your savings account. Means if you stopped making money, you would last two weeks. And you have two kids.

It's kind of terrifying.

It's pretty scary. It's one thing if you're a single person and worst case you go back and live with your parents if you're able to, something like that. But with two kids, you have a much higher risk. The stakes are a lot higher. The next thing I noticed is that within your fixed costs, I want to go down these numbers very quickly, because why do you have 79% on a $210,000 income? Well, let's take a look.

Do you rent or do you have a mortgage?

We rent.

So your housing cost is 25%. And what area or city are you located in?

Toronto.

Oh, very expensive.

Yeah.

All right. So 4,000 bucks, how does that stack up relative to your peers with two kids? Is that higher or lower than what they're paying?

And we're the only ones that rent.

Really?

If we could have gotten a mortgage, we would have already bought one, for sure.

Okay. Damn, that Canadian propaganda is powerful.

When we looked into it, say a couple years ago now, I think, we can get a mortgage based on my steady salary at the time. It just was nowhere near high enough to break into a market where housing in general is going for just so much money.

Yeah. Still going up, or what's the deal with Toronto housing?

It's kind of flattened a bit, but our landlord just sold. So we got our eviction notice and we have to find a new place to live.

How much is the market going for for what you're looking for?

Well, we're going to get less for paying more. So it will be typically over four grand.

Over four grand. How many bedrooms do you have?

Right now, we have three.

Two and a half, yeah.

Mhm. Okay. So that's notable. At 25%, not bad. Not bad for a high cost of living city. We often see that number higher. Childcare at 1,500 bucks a month. That's pretty pricey. There's no doubt about that. And then debt payments at 1,200 bucks a month. And is that the minimum?

Yeah, it fluctuates, but yeah, that's minimum.

So we're looking into your debt of $106,000. I see Erin line of credit, Kristina line of credit, Erin credit card, Kristina credit card. And monthly interest is approximately $1,200 for this debt. How long will it take you to pay that off?

I have no idea.

Never. Never. It doesn't make a dent.

Yeah. I mean, we could calculate it, but it would be decades, if ever.

Yeah. Can I ask a really blunt question?

Yeah.

Who the hell makes $210,000 and pays debt forever?

I don't know if it's normal, but it doesn't feel right.

No, it's not. Do you ever feel like, "I'm sick of this"?

Yeah. Yeah, all the time. Feels like we work too hard.

Yeah. Tell me.

We work too hard to feel like we don't have anything at the end of the day, to feel like we're struggling. To feel like we can't figure it out.

Mhm. I like hearing this. It's the first time I'm hearing it. If you think about it, when we started the conversation, it was a lot of, "Yeah, this is kind of a nuisance. It's slightly irritating." Which is one thing, but if you're like this: "I'm sick of this. We work too hard. This is unacceptable. We're going to make a change." That's different.

Yeah. Yeah, we're definitely at the point where we want to move heaven and earth to change it. I think what we've realized about being renters now with two kids is it's the stability piece, right? The kids are a lot older moving, and it's harder. It's harder to feel like you're not in control.

Yeah.

Of any of that. So I feel like that is really challenging, tough, upsetting, and we want to be in more control of our own future.

Ooh, I like that. Now, you all have engaged with other people before. In fact, I saw it repeatedly in your application. "We've worked with multiple people before." Who are these people?

I have had a money mindset coach who was very helpful.

Yeah.

We worked with a financial coach previously.

What happened?

Nothing. We don't talk about it, so it just falls away. Because we don't prioritize it, and we haven't known how to talk about it, and we don't want to hurt each other's feelings. It felt like we were doing it, but it didn't feel like we were a team doing it. We were just sitting beside each other.

Right. Powerful. That's a powerful metaphor. The two of you were in the room. You were physically there. You may have even been sitting next to each other, but you were still not a team.

Agreed.

Erin, what do you think? What people have you seen, and what happened with them?

I don't know. I don't know. It's failure. It just all feels like we tried and I don't have many of us do it, so it doesn't feel good enough. No, I don't want to get emotional.

Why not?

Yeah, it feels hard. We've tried and I think we're stuck in a cycle that's not going to end until we end it.

Yeah. End it. What makes today different? Why is it going to be different today?

Well, I won't speak for Erin, but I'm just fed up, and nothing changes until something changes. We can't keep doing the same and expecting different results.

But you did it for a long time.

Mhm.

You still got the roof over your head, the food. So it wasn't that bad, right?

Yeah, but I think I mentioned it in our application. We're so stressed all the time. We're sick. We don't have time to do the that we want to do. It's not without its consequences.

Okay. The good news and the tough news is that the two of you are a team. And as you've told me, you are an effective team in other parts of life, but not in money. That can be good and that can be tough. Good in that if you get this to work, the two of you can row your boat way faster together than ever solo. The tough news is that it's going to be tough because not only do you each have to change yourselves, you have to change your dynamic together.

I think I would like that. I don't think that we have been able to do that in the past effectively.

So they've worked with multiple coaches before. A money mindset coach, a financial coach. Why am I any different? My question is, what happened with all those other people? Here's what I think happened, because I have worked with many people who are coach collectors. They go from this coach to that, from this conference to that, this program to that.

The people who jump around a lot tend not to make major changes. Here's what I suspect happened. The last time they hired a coach, they showed up, sat next to each other, nodded along, and then nothing. They went through the motions. They performed, but they never actually engaged.

It's like this really peculiar dynamic I've noticed on Instagram. People will DM me. They've been reading my site for years, and then they will send me a DM saying, "Okay, you got me. I've been following you for nine years. Today's post finally convinced me to buy your book." Now, I appreciate that they just bought I Will Teach You to Be Rich or Money for Couples, but I've also learned over time that there is a deeper dynamic here. Deep down, they see our relationship as adversarial. They feel their job is to resist me, and my job is to convince them to buy my book. They fundamentally misunderstand our relationship. And even deeper, they think that buying a book equates to doing the work. It's the same as someone who hires a coach or buys a ticket to a conference.

If I can be really honest, buying a book or attending an event is just the first step. The real work has not even begun yet. So with Kristina and Erin, I can't fix this for them. In fact, no coach can. Because the problem isn't the debt or the numbers, the problem is that they don't trust themselves, and they do not trust each other. So what would you do if you were in my position right now? Well, we're going to find out my approach right after the break.

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What are your roles with the family finances? Who takes the lead?

We have an accountant now for the first time. I take the lead on the account stuff just because my business is also included in that now. But on the day-to-day, we operate very separately.

How's it work? What kind of accounts do you have? Anything joint?

No. No joint accounts.

All right. Two kids, but no joint accounts.

I know.

Why? Is there a reason for that? Or you just had your accounts and then you just slid into the relationship and never really changed things?

Yeah. The second. Accurate. Yeah.

Do you currently track any spending at all? It's okay if the answer is no, most people don't.

We do now. Now just with the accountant. And that's been helpful to sit down with them.

This is for your business?

For our business and our personal. We just got it this past year. It's really helpful to see where everything's going and just be in shock by it.

Okay.

And he's great and I love it and, like I said, it's been good to see everything on paper. But I feel like as we go, we're kind of looking at it after it's spent right now. And I think what we need is to plan for the month instead of just looking at it and being like, "Oh, where'd that go?" Or it's gone.

Okay. What is this accountant's name? Walter or something? I can just imagine him. What's his name?

Taranpreet.

Oh, he's Indian. He's Punjabi. Taranpreet, my man. Okay, cool. All right, listen. Accountants are great. Seriously, I have great things to say about accountants, but they are not meant to track day-to-day spending. That's not their purpose. They're there for taxes, they're there for one-time things or larger, once-a-year decisions. Their purpose is not tracking where your guilt-free spending is going.

So, it's great you have an accountant for your business. I think that's great. That accountant can also work on your personal tax returns, fantastic. But you got to reset your expectations. They're not going to fix knowing where your money is going, you are.

Yeah.

Kristina, I want to know how you grew up with money. What were some of the phrases you remember your family saying about money when you were younger?

So, there was a period of time when we didn't have much money at all, and then as my parents advanced in their career, there was a period of time where they got to that kind of middle class. But money was never discussed. It was, "You don't talk about money." But then at the same time, it was very much like, "Do what you love and money will come."

They told you that?

Yeah.

Usually you don't hear that from people who do not have a lot of money. Why do you think that they said that?

I think they wanted better for us.

Uh-huh. When my Indian parents or my Chinese friends' parents want better, they're like, "Get your ass to work. I'm putting you to work in a restaurant at age six." But your parents were like, "Find your passion." Can you explain this to me? What do you mean by that?

With very big feelings, and I had a lot of struggles with mental health. And I think my parents knew that no one was going to be harder on me than me.

Okay.

And probably that had some impact on it.

How would you describe their reaction? Did they encourage you more? Did they walk on eggshells around you? How would you describe their approach with you?

They just kind of let me be the intense kid that I was. I wanted to be a lawyer at 13 because you got to wear a power suit and I could work on Bay Street. I was a little loser. And they just kind of were like, "Let her be." But at the same time, in school I struggled intellectually. I was incredibly shy and anxious. I had a speech impediment. I was kind of labeled a dumb kid. So I think there was probably that too, walking on eggshells of, "We don't want to be too hard on her."

You mentioned your mental health struggles and some of the speech impediment challenges. Were you able to get help for those as time went on?

Yeah, I have extreme privilege living in Canada. So I had a psychiatrist since I was 12 years old.

Wow.

And I've had access to medication, access to care as I needed it over the years. So I'm incredibly privileged.

Awesome. Awesome. I'm really happy to hear that. That's amazing. In your discussions with the folks in your treatment team, did you ever bring up money with them? Like, "I find it challenging to engage with money."

No.

Hmm. What if you did?

I can't imagine them seeing a space for it in the conversation.

Didn't you mention something about the difficulty with numbers?

Yeah.

Seems to me there could be a conversation around that.

I thought about it, but no. We never discussed it.

What do you think are the key lessons that you learned about money from your parents, your family?

I learned that it wasn't always going to be there.

Uh-huh.

If you work really hard though, really, really hard, you can get it. You can access it. It was scarce. Things cost money. Things are expensive. You have to be careful with things.

And what relationship do you see between those messages and what you bring to this relationship with money?

That it's very similar. You can work hard and you can access it, but it doesn't mean it's going to stay.

Right.

And everything has a price and you have to be careful about how you spend your money and where you spend that money.

Kristina was labeled the dumb kid growing up. She had a speech impediment. She struggled with numbers in school. And now she's completely convinced that numbers are just too hard for her. And therefore she can't handle money.

When I was a kid in seventh grade, I switched from an elementary school where I was probably the top student to join a group of kids in middle school who were way, way more academically equipped than I was. Suddenly, I realized I could not compete with them. No matter how hard I tried, I was the worst kid in my math class. And I spent a lot of time on math. I still just could not compete with their intellectual horsepower.

And over time I found this to be true in certain other areas of life: computer science, navigation and directions, even packing my suitcase. I think they're all related. And no matter how hard I try, maybe I could be average, but the people who I've met over time, especially at places like Stanford, some of them were just simply naturally more gifted than me.

Now, I think this is a very, very powerful, pivotal moment. I think that most of us don't experience what it's like to be around true excellence and see that some people just naturally are skilled in certain things. But I also think that when you do have the rare opportunity to encounter that, you can tell yourself one story or another.

One story is, "I am not good at this. I can never be good at this. I'm going to give up on it." I hate that story. But I understand it because sometimes it just feels really hard. That's a lot of kids in America when it comes to math.

The other story is, "Hey, I'm never going to be great at this. But first, let me put in the time to make sure that I'm actually trying. This is hard for me. I'm not naturally gifted at this. I have to work twice or three times as hard as everybody else. At least let me build up some basic capabilities, and then I will find ways of working around it." To this day, I am not great at calculus. I am bad at computer science. But I found ways of handling it, of making up for my weaknesses, and then focusing on my strengths.

Talking to Kristina, she's obviously smart. She's very self-aware. She acknowledged their negative storytelling in the first 10 minutes of our conversation. She's very articulate. The problem is not that she's not smart enough. The problem is that she has believed she is not smart enough in this specific thing for so long that she's simply given up on it.

And here's what's wild. She learned as a kid that money was scarce. It wouldn't always be there. So, what did she do as an adult? She becomes an entrepreneur with wildly inconsistent income. Then she borrows $50,000 to invest in NFTs. She is literally recreating the money lessons from her childhood, but she doesn't realize it. Let's keep going.

What else did you learn, Erin, from your family growing up about money?

Not a whole lot. The oldest of five kids. My dad had a very good job for quite a long time, so my mom was home for the first 16 years with us. I think my parents are quite good with money, but there's no conversation around money. It was something that you didn't talk about.

At 16 my dad had a nervous breakdown and my mom went back into the workforce at a very different pay grade, very different level. She'd been out for 16 years. And he did not end up going back to work following that. So we kind of had the experience of having some means after my dad working hard for a while to, "How are we going to do things?" And I know that they used any college, university funds just to make sure we were going to be good.

Can I ask a little bit more about what happened with your dad?

Yeah, he's bipolar. He's—

Got it. Okay, that's got to be difficult at that age for you.

Yeah, I think it was. I think it was just scary and unknown, but we weren't very good at talking about it as a family. I would argue we are still not good at that stuff. So I think this, we don't talk about it or know how.

Yeah. It started a long time ago. Is there any cultural component to your family not talking about it or religious component?

Not that I know of, but I—

You were raised staunch Catholic.

Oh.

Yeah. More. Yeah. Well, there's that.

Got that. Hold on. Is it the same in Canada as the US, got the Catholic guilt? Can we check that one off the box?

Yeah. Yeah, we were both raised Catholic and being a homosexual, being raised Catholic—

Yeah, wait a second. Hey, then we could have had this call in 5 minutes. You could have told me that, I would have checked the box and said here's the problem, here's the solution, see you later.

Yeah.

All right. Okay, wow, that's interesting.

I think we just feel guilt about everything. We don't—

Yeah. You feel guilt just normally.

All the time.

Oh. This is like, are we good enough parents? Are we in touch with our family? Are we doing well enough at work? How about with each other? And on and on and on. That kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

All right. You both see a therapist?

Yeah.

Okay. Do you foresee a future where you operate on a daily basis without guilt?

I don't know what that looks like.

Yeah, I don't know what that—

I don't think I've ever thought about that.

Wow, very interesting. You see, when we talk about money, a lot of people think they're going to come on here and we're going to talk about their freaking ratios of housing or some stuff like that. No, we're talking about Catholic guilt today, everybody. How do you think we wandered into this neighborhood? I find it quite relevant. What do you both think?

How you're raised deeply affects how you go about your day-to-day as adults.

Exactly. And this explains some, not all, but some of why it has been challenging for you both to tackle your relationship with money. The story that you've told yourself is like, "Oh, we just don't prioritize this." And that's probably true. You've told yourself the story that, "I'm not really good with numbers, it confuses me, and it makes me feel ashamed." Probably also true.

But it's also probably incomplete. One way to think of it is, you've been wearing these dirty glasses for a long time. Trying to look through the world with all these smudges on them. And you're wondering, "Why is everybody else able to do this? And we're not. Are they all just smarter than us? Are we just stupid? Did we miss some day in school?" It's a terrible feeling when you feel like everyone else knows something and you don't. That does not feel good.

No.

There's of course one other variable, which is your kids. And I'm quite certain that you do not want to pass on the same guilt to your kids.

No.

Both shaking their heads.

I think we struggle with knowing what to say to our kids and what not to say to our kids about these things because we're worried we're going to ... them up. We're worried we're going to make them feel shame about the cost of something or make them have a scarcity mindset.

Well, do you both feel ashamed about money?

Yes.

Okay. Both nodding. Wait, so what's your strategy to not have your kids feel shame about money? Let me guess. Don't tell me. Let me guess. Let's not talk about it at all at home because let kids be kids. Did I get that?

Yeah, some of it. Yeah, I would say that's more like that. We've talked about the desire to not do the wrong thing when it comes to them with it and we just don't know what that is yet. So, I think we are getting to the point where they're getting older and we want to understand, make sure they have a positive relationship and we'd love to help them with that. And part of this journey is we want to first have a positive relationship and see it, like we have that in our life as well, to be able to showcase that and be an example of that.

Yeah, that's great. You cannot teach kids a healthy relationship with money without having one yourself.

Exactly. 100%.

Both of them were raised Catholic, both are gay, both come from families that never talked about difficult things like money, mental health, and now they carry a lot of guilt. In fact, from my discussions with many, many people in my community, lots of Americans love to feel guilty about every major aspect of their life. It is what many Americans grew up doing. It's what they know.

Sometimes I ask people who are overwhelmed with guilt, I ask them, "If you took away the guilt, who would you be?" A lot of them do not have an answer. It's too scary to think about taking something that is so core to their

Identity.

Can I be really honest about guilt and money? It's going to be very hard for you to fix money problems. It's going to be almost impossible to live a rich life when you are operating from a baseline of guilt and shame.

I've talked to couples in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s from all kinds of different backgrounds, and I hear variations of the same answer. It's too complicated. I can't do this. I'm just not good at money. Money makes me feel guilty.

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When you think about your financial situation right now, what part feels the hardest?

Knowing what to do next, and the fear of not wanting to fall into habits.

Okay. Kristina?

I think for me it's the maintaining of the income.

Because money comes and money can go away. Is that what you mean?

Yeah, when you talk I keep being like, "Well, $210,000 is only based on the last two months, and those have been my best months, and blah, blah, blah."

Yeah. Good identifying that invisible script. Erin, you've been described as the stable one when it comes to the finances. I think that's because of your full-time job.

Yes.

Do you accept that role?

Not as, I think, willingly anymore. I think at first very much so. I think Kristina is one of the most amazing people I've ever met, and I really believe in her. And I think I fell into this role not wanting to not encourage or not support. But then because of that, I think over time, when it went longer, me being the stable one, it just got really hard.

Is it hard now?

It's been easier lately because she's crushing it.

Hold on. Let's repeat what just happened verbatim so you can see it. Okay. You're crying.

Yeah.

Say, "Is it hard now?" And your response was?

No. Because this is—I don't want to say—maybe I still sometimes, yes.

Even in your hypothetical answer.

Yeah. Mhm.

Or said, "I maybe, I don't want to say maybe." Notice the qualifications, the equivocations.

Oh, yeah.

Can I just tell you guys something? Sometimes feelings are not the most important thing in the room. Can we do an exercise? We'll call it Ramit's 60-second truth-telling. This is okay.

In this exercise, all of us are going to be respectful of each other. There's no doubt about that. But we are going to say the thing that we have never been able to say that we really want our life partner to hear. The thing that is so important, we are willing to potentially even hurt their feelings temporarily in order for us to build a stronger bond and a richer life together. Let's just take a second and think about what we might want our partner to hear.

I want stability because I want to have this great future together and we talk about. I want to feel more security. I want to enjoy, not stop working so hard all the time and actually enjoy that. I miss her all the time because we're so busy. I think that as proud as I am with the entrepreneurship piece, it's just been really hard and I wish it wasn't so hard.

It's funny, you don't say these things out loud, but we know. And I think in the past we've talked about, I wouldn't blame her if she resented me. I wouldn't blame her if she were frustrated. I don't discount the pressure that it puts on her for me doing what I wanted to do and, quite frankly, her not. Her job is not easy. And I know she can't leave it, but I get to do what I want to do. So I understand.

Kristina, what about you? If you could be open and honest about money knowing that Erin would be receptive and you would not be concerned with hurting her feelings or walking on eggshells, what would you say? How do you feel about money? What do you want and what do you need?

I think I want to feel more like a team. I want to feel like I can tell you things. Not like it's not going to hurt your feelings, but feel like that's okay if it does. I think one thing I keep thinking about is we don't take any shortcuts in our life. We buy the best stuff. Erin's always making the most amazing meals. Everything is done to the nth degree. And I think because of that we don't get any time together and we don't get to connect. And it feels like if we were okay with taking some shortcuts, it would be easier to do that stuff.

Again, feelings are important. Here's what I'm saying. I'm not trying to say you need to become a 10. You are who you are, but I will say that even in that experiment, I didn't hear specifics. What changes are going to happen? I don't know. What do we need Kristina to do? I don't know. Kristina, what do you need Erin to do? I don't know. So it all felt very good.

Mhm.

But do you all see how you're trapped in this dynamic?

Yeah.

Yeah, he wants specific action items, you mean, or?

You want specific action items, not me. You should want them.

That's what I mean. I need to hear from him, yeah. Weird that we don't know what we want.

Exactly. That's really what it is. Does anybody know? What do you want? Because making $210,000 a year, paying the minimum on your debt, saving no money, having two weeks of savings, to me it's just not acceptable.

Mhm.

I want to save $20,000 by January.

Really?

Yeah.

I don't mind that it's picked out of thin air. I don't care. At least we're talking about a number, and we can work with that.

Mhm.

But we can't go from just feelings and talking magically to a number. Sometimes we just have to start with the math. Right now, I'm going to put it up on screen. If we look at your fixed costs, they are $10,000 a month. You see that?

Mhm. Mhm.

So what you just described is, I want two months of emergency fund. Okay? Because if you got laid off, you would immediately cut all your spending on this stuff. You would cut your savings and your investments, and all you need to do is just pay to keep the lights on, just to overly simplify. So you just said, I want two months of an emergency fund. I respect that. Personally, I recommend people have six to 12 months. Okay? But I think two months is a great place to start. Do you see how what you just said actually fits in beautifully with your CSP? Outstanding. Great work. Okay, Kristina, what do you want?

I want to tackle our debt. I feel like it's crushing us each month. I feel like we burn $1,200 every single month just holding it.

Nice. You want to pay your debt off.

Yeah.

You want to pay it off slowly, aggressively?

I want it gone.

Really?

To get rid of it.

Wow. That's cool. We could do this. We could make all of these things happen. What do you think? Does anybody believe me? Is this a silent skepticism I'm seeing right now?

Weirdly confident, so I'm here for it.

Of course I'm confident. I know what I'm doing. The thing is I want you to be confident, not me.

Yeah.

All right. Here's the deal. You want to save money, we can build up your savings. If I were you, that would make me feel so much more confident.

Mhm.

That would make me feel safer, Erin, which is something you have mentioned wanting.

I would love that.

Okay. Kristina, if I were you, I would want to pay off this debt. Just get rid of it. Why are we even in this situation? We're making way more money than I thought. I want this done so I can be free of it.

Mhm.

I'm going to pull the Conscious Spending Plan up on screen. I would like you both to just look at these numbers. If something is confusing, just ask. I'm happy to walk through anything. And what I'm looking for is conceptually, what are the two or three major things that you would do in order to build up your savings and/or pay off your debt faster?

Let's go through the key parts of this. We have your income over here. It's $210,000 a year. We have your fixed costs at 79%. That's pretty high. That will make it difficult for saving and investing a bunch of money. We have savings and investments at 1%. Pretty low. And guilt-free spending at 19%. Conceptually, Erin, what might you do?

Actually put a plan to the guilt-free spending money. Actually consciously say, "Okay, an amount of that is going to go towards savings, investments, paying down debt." Something like that.

Great. Okay, so you would take some of that money, that $2,465 in guilt-free spending, and you would reallocate it towards savings and debt.

Mhm.

Great. Okay, I think that's a very good strategy. Kristina, what about you conceptually?

Erin has some stocks. And we talked about cashing out a percentage of the stocks to be able to pay off the debts.

We're not going to do that. I'm going to tell you why we're not going to do that. There's several reasons why we're not going to do that. Number one, if you sell your stock, where does the money go for in your investments? It goes to your debt. So what's going to happen as you two get older? You're going to have no money.

Mhm.

You're basically robbing your future self and gotten really nothing out of it. It's not a good situation. So give me another conceptual choice you're going to make.

I want to cut up my credit card. I don't even want it. I've started using debit for everything because for a while I used credit for everything because I got points.

You used the credit card because you got points when you're in credit card debt?

Yeah. Because at first it was like, well, I get points and then I'll pay it off. Just being honest. It just is what went through my head.

One day in my obituary, I want to be celebrated not for the millions of people I helped to lead rich lives, not for being a loving husband and son and bro, none of that. All I want to be celebrated for is for remaining sane as I talk to person after person in severe credit card debt who still charges so they get free miles and points. Why am I on this planet?

Okay, I had to stop myself from exploding right there. Kristina just told me she's still using her credit cards. Why? For points. And that is while carrying $50,000 in credit card debt. I'm sitting here thinking, are you serious? You're paying over 20% in interest so you can earn 1% back in points?

The first time this happened on this show, I thought it was a one-off. Then I met guest after guest who's in credit card debt, but they keep spending on their card. And when I ask them why, they look at me like I'm crazy. Duh, for the points.

You remember how happy we were when we were kids? We opened up a Happy Meal and we got a toy at the bottom. That's essentially what a lot of people do with their credit card points. They spend $50 to get $0.25 in free toys.

Let me tell you as someone who has points and who has money, the very best rewards program is being able to pay for whatever you want, whenever you want. And if you are in debt, listen closely. Credit card rewards should be the last thing that you are focused on.

So what else can you do?

Make more money.

You could. How?

Keep doing what I've been doing.

Okay, I agree, and hopefully that's great. What if it's not? Because you mentioned the last two months have been your best months ever.

Mhm.

What if it goes down?

That plan doesn't work.

And then?

We need another plan.

No, we're not—not even close. You two make $210,000. What the hell are you talking about? You make $8,560 a month, right? That's you?

Mhm.

Meaning in the last two months, if we extend that out for 12 months, you're getting paid $102,000 per year.

Mhm.

Right?

Mhm.

How much could you make if you got a job on the open market?

I don't know. Buck fifty, maybe.

What the— You can make $150K if you got a full-time job?

Mhm.

Just out of curiosity, wait a minute. Am I being led into a trap or am I the one leading the trap? Because usually I'm leading the trap. I'm not sure what's happening right now, but I'm going to go with it. Tell me, before these last couple of excellent performing months in your business, where you've made $8,560 per month gross, how much were you making before that?

Like $5K, probably.

$5K per month, meaning $60K per year, and you're telling me you can make $150K on the open market.

Mhm.

And this has been happening for a long time. Out of curiosity, just asking an innocent question, why not shut the business down and go make $150,000 a year?

It's my nightmare working in corporate. I just don't function well.

Like corporate?

There at all. I hate it.

All right. One thing I don't like about corporate is wearing those key cards on your wallet, or on your—you got to pull that out and badge in. I'm like, "You, I'm not wearing anything just because my boss told me to." That's why I'm not set for corporate.

Do you know what I hate more than wearing a key card? Is being in $106,000 of debt. Now, I'm not saying you have to go back to a corporate job. I'm not saying—it's your life, your money.

Mhm.

I am saying this is a marked difference in how much you can make. If you can make $150K on the open market, that is certainly one possible way to rapidly pay your debt off. Would you agree?

Mhm.

Okay, great. Now we're getting stuff out on the table. Right now, let's just come up with some general guidelines. Where do you think the $2,400 a month is going?

Eating out.

How much?

Well, look of alarm on Kristina's face. How much?

Like four or five, maybe?

Probably at least five.

Probably.

Have you guys ever listened to this podcast before? Whatever people tell me, it's three times the actual number.

Excellent.

Right. Especially for people who like good food as you both described. So if you say $500, yeah, right. It's $1,000, at least.

Okay.

All right, what's next?

Coffee.

That's already included in eating out.

Okay. Oh, then yes, for sure it's out of that.

$1,500, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, what else? The house? How much stuff is coming into this house? Better be honest, too, because I know we're counting Christmas in there and whatever holidays, all of it.

Like birthdays and Christmas.

Yeah.

Erin loves a celebration.

It, I guess. Like the rest of—

The rest of it, okay.

Yeah, I think. Oh, it's a lot.

It's a lot. It's a lot, okay. All right, yeah. I like the honesty. Honestly, this is really helpful. There's definitely some other stuff in here that's not being counted. If you travel once a year, and let's just say that it costs $12,000 for a trip, we spread all that out, that's actually $1,000 per month.

So I'm being super approximate here, but if we just factor the following in: eating out, $1,500 a month. Who knows if I'm right or wrong? I'm probably wrong. I don't know in what direction, but let's just say. Ubers, $300, house, $600, okay? What do you notice about all these things?

It's a lot of money.

Yes. What was your rich life vision again? Erin, what was yours?

You mean stability and being able to do what we want when we want?

Yeah. Stability. Well, no, you're not going to do what you want when you want. You're going to get stability first. That comes first. Let's say it was six months of savings. And then, Kristina, what was your vision?

Pay off the debt.

What do you notice about these expenses in light of each of your visions?

They would really contribute to them.

Yeah. And actually, every time you spend a dollar on these, they're actually leading you further away from your vision.

Mhm.

Every coffee you buy is actually one step further away from the rich life that you yourself described. Every Uber trip you take, you're going to Tim Hortons? No, you're

Not going to Tim Hortons. You're going to hell. You're going to hell because you're going further away from your rich life. Yes, that makes sense. All right.

Here's what I see. 2,400 bucks a month at least that could be at least in part taking you closer to paying off debt and building up savings. I don't mind if you want to eat out, that's going to happen. But I think there's probably just a lot of unconscious money going towards random that feels good, but at the same time you're feeling good, you're not living your rich life. You're actually out of alignment. What would you like to do?

I want to get the 19% down to, I don't know, 7%.

What do you want to do with that money?

Half of that go towards savings and then half of it go towards paying off the debt.

I like that. That's a very reasonable assumption. I also especially like that you said 7%. That's picking a number. Who knows if it's right or wrong, but we are operating with numbers here. Let's see how it looks. What I'm going to do is I'm going to go up to debt, and right now you're paying 800 and 400. So you'll see it's still 19%. Nothing has changed. You're currently paying $1,200 a month towards debt. You can see that. I'm going to add an extra 200 bucks towards debt. You're only at 18%.

So you can see that, wow, we can afford to do a lot more. Let's do a thousand extra dollars towards debt. Oh my gosh, you're at 11%. That's still $1,465 a month. Let's put a little bit towards savings. I don't know, 500? Okay, you're down to 8%.

Can I make an observation? Do you all really want to give $150 a month for gifts instead of gifting yourself that $150 and putting it in your savings?

No. Kristina's like, no. No. Erin?

It's funny, I feel immediately selfish that I would put it towards us versus celebrating our friends and family. I don't know. I know that that may sound silly.

I have this example where I tell people sometimes you have to imagine what somebody else would do, somebody who's really good with money. You may have an old boss. Sometimes when I'm thinking of a management problem, I think about Captain Jean-Luc Picard from Star Trek, right? Good leader. So you can pick anybody, dead, alive, actor, whatever.

You all need to pick me for what you would do when it comes to some of the—because sometimes I think your picker is way off. They're like, "What would Ramit say to do?" Ramit said he would say he would take this mother—

We're not paying them, we're paying us. We come first as a family unit, us two and our two kids. That's it. There's no selfishness involved. We are putting ourselves first. We are paying ourselves first, literally. Now you're putting 5% towards savings. Not bad. Not bad. But do you see what had to happen there in order for that to work?

The spreadsheet doesn't matter. It's about you becoming emotionally congruent with what your rich life is. You actually have to believe it. You actually have to live it. And if somebody comes up to you, "Hey, why don't you give me that Christmas gift you always give me that Christmas?" You say, "I love you. I want to spend time with you. Right now it's important for us to focus on building our savings."

And the two of you have to be aligned as partners because you cannot get where you want to go if one of you is out of alignment. What do you think, Erin?

Yes, we can't without being aligned. I agree. And we're not going to get anywhere. So we need to be a team.

I left 25 bucks a month for gifts. Are you willing to go from 150 to 25?

Sure. Will it be easy? I'm not saying it will be, but am I willing to do it? Yeah.

Great. That's it. I love that energy.

It's going to be tough, but yes. We'll figure it out, right?

All of this is going to be hard. All of it.

Yeah, for sure.

And it's important for you both to recognize that. All the easy decisions happened five years ago. The easy decisions were ringing up the credit card and taking the line of credit. All that was easy. Now you are only left with hard choices. In my opinion, you either do the hard stuff yourself or the world is going to force you to do it. So why don't we just fix it now? What do you say?

Yeah. All right, my team ran some quick calculations for your credit card debt. We assumed 20% APR because of Canada. At a thousand dollars a month, it would take you nine years to pay it off, and you would pay almost $60,000 in interest. At $2,000 a month, that will take less than three years, and you'll pay just $15,200 in interest. What do you notice about that difference?

It's pretty big. It's huge. It's pretty big.

That's from $1,000 to $2,000. Now, just to put it in context, if you two are making $210,000, we're talking about the difference between $1,000 and $2,000 per month. What do you notice?

It should be doable. Yeah. Yeah.

Why does it feel so hard when you have tried in the past?

I think probably because we don't have numbers attached to it.

Exactly. Exactly. It's all feelings that have calcified. It's like, "I feel very strongly about this." All right, that's fine, but what are the numbers?

There's no numbers.

And in fact, what's happened is you've created an identity around things like, "I love good food and decorating the house and giving gifts." Those have become part of your identity. And that's actually what makes this really hard. This idea that I might have to actually change who I am. I'm no longer the good gift giver. This is actually really hard, but it can be done.

Can we just look at your fixed costs really quick? Is there a way we can get those down? Your fixed costs are 86%. That's artificially high because you've decided to pay more off. Okay. Don't freak out.

What happened?

Look at this. In fact, if we look at it, $2,200 a month towards your debt payments. If you can stick with it, that will go away relatively quickly. Can we look at the rest of this? Your rent is going to go up for less. Is that correct?

We don't want to spend any more than what we're spending right now.

Great. Agreed. So how are you going to do it?

We have to accept less.

Yes. You mentioned you have how many bedrooms? Three? Two and a half? Yeah. Might have to go down. Would you be willing to do that?

Yeah. I would for this.

Yes, that's the way you do it. Trust me, there's a light at the end of this tunnel. You start making these changes, number one, you're going to discover they're easier to do, they're compounding. You make one change, you go, "Oh, we're actually okay with a half less bedroom. We're fine with that. Oh my God, we're okay spending less eating out. We just plan a little bit more. We make our coffee at home. We're okay with it."

The other thing is you're sending a message to yourself. I'm the kind of person that sets a goal and follows through with money, just like the both of you do at work. It compounds. All right, what else can we cut on this? Groceries?

I'm sure. Yeah. Having an actual plan. Seven.

Seven? Can you do it? You tell me.

Know. All right. I say 800. Target that, okay? And if it's 815, don't beat yourself up. Okay.

Let me guess, right now when you shop, you don't shop to the price. You don't shop at the labels or anything, right? You just get what you want.

Yeah, mostly for a recipe or plan, that kind of a plan, but I don't do it from a spending plan. I think it's not lining up, obviously.

Exactly. So from now on you're going to have to shop differently. Again, it's going to suck for a couple of weeks. And then you're going to quickly discover probably, "I can't make this type of dish that I used to make." So sorry. From now on it's going to be a little bit simpler, but I know you can do it.

All right, 200 bucks actually is really powerful, and I want to show you something because I'm not just going to let that $200 just get evaporated into your financial system. You just saved 200 bucks, hard decisions at the grocery store. Where do you want to put that 200 bucks? Either savings or debt. I don't know what the right answer is here.

Split it. I don't know which one.

Split it. Let's split it. Mathematically, it's probably a better idea to put it towards the debt because it's so high interest, but I don't mind. We can do both. Emergency fund becomes 225. That's nice at 6% savings, and then we'll go over to the debt payments, and we'll make this 1,300. Holy, this is really starting to add up here.

You're going to have money automatically flowing into savings. So you are literally going to have an automatic payment of $725 going into an emergency fund. You will never have to think about it. But after three or so months, you're going to see thousands of dollars just growing in there, and you're going to be like, "What the—this is so easy. Why didn't we do this?" Because you didn't have a system.

The area you are most likely to fail is guilt-free spending at $965 per month.

Right.

You two are going to have to make a very clear plan on what you want to spend that money on. Okay. Because that's everything. That's eating out. That's coffee. That's travel. That's all of it.

How do you do that?

Great question. How do you think?

We got to get clear on where we're currently spending it, and then probably set a budget based on item, break it down even further.

Yeah, I think that's conceptually right. Usually, there are a couple of categories that people need to track. One of them is eating out. Of $965, how much do you want to go towards eating out?

Realistically, it would probably be half.

Okay. Fair enough.

I don't know. 500 bucks approximately.

Erin, what do you say?

The best way for us to not fail at this is to realistically go, okay, let's start with half while we're trying to figure out where we're at and then challenge ourselves to get it down. But I feel like if we're going to be super unrealistic and you're like, "Oh, well, we could do this," that's where we're going to maybe hard fail.

Agreed. Yes, your instinct is right on. So if it's 500 bucks, perfect. Then the two of you need to decide that, and then you actually need to look at a month-long calendar, because this is way tighter than we're used to. We're used to just going out whenever we want, we just swipe, it doesn't matter. But now we actually have to plan ahead.

So let's break it down. Right now, if each of us goes out to dinner twice and then we each get coffee three times a week, how much does that add up to? Remember to include tax, tip, all of it. And then you're going to quickly realize, holy, we probably can't afford to do delivery because that takes up half of whatever. We can't do coffee as much. You know what? I'd rather just make coffee at home. But we can do these two dinners, so let's plan it. Every other Friday, we're going to do a dinner. You do this one, I'll do this one. Each of you can own your number, $250 per month. That's the way you do it.

For travel, if that's one of your things, one of you will own the travel number. And so when it comes to your next trip, you're in charge of making sure you are at the number or below it, etc. That's the way I would approach it. How does that feel to you, Kristina?

It feels good. I think the one place my brain goes is, do we get a separate account to put those bits of money aside?

Very good question. One simple way to start up. First of all, I want you to reread I Will Teach You to Be Rich together. And read it, not the audio version. You can have the audio version to supplement it, for sure, but I want you to look through the diagrams and the way that I talk about tracking, and I actually want you to do it together. When you do that, especially in chapter four, conscious spending, you're going to see how to focus on the key levers. You're also going to get some more ideas of how to reduce some of your current expenses. You can take that money, you can redirect it to savings.

Now, there's one last piece that I want to emphasize, which is the income piece. Kristina, you've mentioned several times, "I don't know if it's going to stay. My income is good for the last two months, but it could all go away." Here's what I tell every entrepreneur. First of all, the fact that you're making a run rate of $102,000 a year is outstanding. That's awesome. But you know that Erin craves stability. It's a big deal.

And the whole entrepreneurship, which until recently has made around 60K per year, the whole idea of being involved in NFTs, all of it is the opposite of stability. And so right now you're in an enviable position. It's awesome. Here's what I would suggest to you.

I would suggest making an agreement with Erin. And I would suggest you take the lead, Kristina, and you come with a suggested outcome. You say, "Look, I am going to commit that I'm going to make at least $8,000 per month. At least $8,000 per month consistently, on average for the next four months, five months, six months. And if by the end of six months my number is not there, I'm going to quit and get a full-time job. And if it is, off to the races, we're great," etc.

Now again, I'm not telling you you have to do this. It may not be six months. There's all kinds of variables you can play with. But you can see Erin's nodding. Just this idea that, do the entrepreneur thing. Great, you're crushing it right now. Great. But if it goes away, if it doesn't hit the numbers you need, there's got to be a plan where you call it, you wrap it up, go get a well-paying job, bank a bunch of money, and then when the time is right, you can come back and be an entrepreneur again. How does that strike you, Kristina?

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Yeah, I think that's fair. As much as I've always wanted to just be like, "No, do everything you want," I think it's a realistic look at what having a plan in that situation looks like. And I think that's what I crave is not even just the stability. It's like, "What's the plan B?" And I think not having a plan B has been hard. So if we had a plan B for that, I think that would be great.

And I think some of what the hard part for you is, not knowing if this is just going to stay like this forever. Not having a plan leaves you guessing.

Now, let me ask you something. Because it's all great to talk about all these cool ways that we can do this. But if nothing changes in the next five years, what will happen?

We'll probably be divorced. Yeah.

Yeah, we need to change.

Kristina, why do you say that? It's pretty serious.

Because I think that she would divorce me. And we've had to have those hard conversations before. This is not just an intellectual exercise. It has to work.

When you walk into something like this and you walk out of it saying, "This has to work, and therefore we are going to make it work. I don't care if it's hard. I don't care if we have to have difficult conversations. I don't care if I have to say things I've never said before. We are doing this because we as a couple, as parents, need to make this work."

Yeah, I do completely agree. We have no choice but to make hard choices and changes.

Kristina and Erin have a plan now. Two and a half years to pay off $106,000 in debt. Cut guilt-free spending from $2,400 to $500 a month. No more using credit cards while carrying a balance. This is a clear, simple plan. I love it. Now simple is good, but simple is not the same as easy.

Here's what I'll say, I was pleasantly surprised by how they both showed up today. They were coachable, they were open, they ran the numbers themselves and faced uncomfortable truths. They were even willing to hear something that's really difficult, especially in America, which is that buying a house right now would actually make things worse. They've worked with coaches before, I know that. Nothing stuck. Why? Maybe they were just performing. Maybe they were just going through the motions. The question of course is will

It be different this time? I'm not sure. But I have hope based on what I saw today. It depends on them, whether they are willing to do the ongoing work. Not just the spreadsheets, that part's easy, but the work of building trust with themselves and with each other. Having uncomfortable conversations week after week, which will get easier and will eventually feel good.

Well, good news. We have follow-ups. So let's check them out and see if they've been able to do that work.

Okay, recapping my biggest surprise, biggest takeaway, and what we plan to change from Kristina and I having our chat with Ramit. Biggest surprise, I think for me, I think this is pretty mutual, how terrible we are at having these conversations, even though we're very well-intentioned and we don't want to hurt each other's feelings. That is doing more harm than it is doing good. So, figuring out that clear communication. I love Ramit's suggestion of when are you dealing with the facts and when are you dealing with the emotions? So, there's probably ways we can separate that, which I think is really, really great. But that, I think, was my biggest surprise.

Biggest takeaway, that I want to make it, personally I will make it, easier for Kristina to talk to me about these things so that we do take a little bit of that hesitation out of it and figuring that out. Also, just being conscious and having a Conscious Spending Plan. I do love the title of that. I think the unconscious piece has been not so beneficial for us. So, bringing that Conscious Spending Plan together is going to be great.

And then specific action items, meeting once a week for sure is what we're going to do to just kick it off, as well as really taking everything Ramit has said seriously and give it a go because we've got nothing to lose.

Hey folks, Kristina here finishing my homework for Ramit. So, the biggest surprise for me, I think, was just how hard it was, the physical reaction that both of us had with telling each other how we were feeling about this. We knew avoidance was an issue, but I don't think I realized how bad it was and how much our fear of hurting and disappointing one another was driving our behavior.

Some of the takeaways for me are really related to just this is in the realm of possibility. This is something that we can do. This is something we're in control of. And it's not going to be easy. I think Ramit said, "Your easy time is over. You've had a very long time to say yes to everything." And it's going to be hard, but the changes and the shifts that you have to make aren't as hard, I think, as I thought, and they feel manageable.

And the difference between $100 a month in one place and $200 a month, it's substantial. So, the more that almost gamifies it for me, the saving in one area and saying, "Okay, cool. That means that the reallocation of money in the debt payments and the debt reduction is going to come much more quickly," feels really good for me.

The biggest changes we're going to make are we're going to be meeting weekly about this and seeing where the money's going and making shifts and changes to the Conscious Spending Plan, as well as just looking for a place. We decided we're not going to pay any more than what we're already paying, even if it means we're going to get less. And it's just something that we're willing to accept. Before the show, we could tell we were creeping up, like, "Well, maybe 4,500 is fine." Or maybe even more than that. And both of us feel very uncomfortable by that now. So, those are the updates from my end.

Latest update since we last chatted is I feel like a lesson that's come up that we learned with Ramit, Kristina and I, is something we talk to our kids about all the time, which is that we can do hard things. We spend a lot of time trying to explain this to them and what that means, and I think we've recently made a decision to do the harder thing.

We had to move really quickly. A time where throwing a lot of money at a situation like that to make it feel easier, do the thing that is more convenient, could be so easy. But we're doing the thing that's a bit harder. We are moving in with Kristina's parents. We are going to figure out the right thing, the thing that is going to be the right move for us financially. So, I'm really proud of us for doing that. Next step will be to revise our Conscious Spending Plan based on our new expenditures with our new living situation, and we will go from there and keep doing the work and doing the hard thing.

Hey y'all, the biggest update from our end is that I'm doing this video from my new spot, my new setup at my parents' house. So, we were evicted from our rental. We talked about that on the podcast, and I think we just weren't prepared after having the conversation to spend any more than we were already spending. We're at the limit, and we have the privilege and are so incredibly grateful that my parents live 15 minutes down the road and have the room for us. And they said, "Don't rush. Find something that works for you. Don't pay more than you're willing to spend. Come, save some lunch over the next few months and an undetermined amount of time, and bring the kids and we'll be here."

Again, just so much privilege and gratitude in that, but the ego was fighting big time. A lot of resistance to the idea and a lot of pride in going back home to my parents, but Erin and I sat down. We made the call together, which is also a big update. We spoke about the things that made us uncomfortable, spoke about the things that we were worried about, and just said, "Let's do it. What's the worst that can happen?" So, we're taking it in stride. We're doing our best. We're continuing to just try to talk together more and stop avoiding really hard conversations, and that's the biggest thing. So, wish us luck. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.

Listen up. If you want my help with your specific money questions, there are only two ways to get it. First, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply. Or, second, you can join my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In that program, you get access to live virtual events, monthly group coaching calls, live Q&As, and an amazing, huge community of other people like you. Check it out at iwt.com/moneycoaching.

Article published September 29, 2026