Is Stoicism Making Men More Emotionally Unavailable? Matthew Hussey Takes Audience Questions
Matthew Hussey
In this episode, dating coach Matthew Hussey sits down with David, the show's producer, who usually works behind the camera. David's role is to act as "the voice of the audience": he brings in viewer comments, pushes back, and asks for clarification when a topic moves on too quickly. It is the second episode in this format, and the show still has no name for it ("Grill Matt" and "Toast Matt" are both floated).
The conversation covers chasing and anxiety, whether stoicism helps or harms intimacy, why more women are choosing to stay single, how to separate masculine and feminine "polarity" from the division of responsibilities in a relationship, how couples avoid drifting apart, and how Hussey thinks about the risks of building AI products for dating. The thread running through most of it is Hussey's view that emotional openness and honest communication, not suppression or filtered positivity, are what build connection.
Warming Up: Old Videos and Funny Comments
David opens by asking whether Hussey knows his most-viewed video. Hussey names the one on who should pay on a date, which he describes as the most viral video they ever made. He says it was released more than once and that on Facebook alone one release had something like 30 million views, before other people reposted it across the internet.
David then points to a popular older video about three phrases that make a man fall for you, which includes advice like commenting on a man's style and telling him he makes you feel safe. David reads out joking comments, including one imagining telling a McDonald's cashier, "Here's your fries. You make me feel safe," and another that proposes three alternative steps: buy him a guitar, buy him a Superman costume, and tell him to do push-ups in your honor. Hussey says he still stands by the original advice and plays along with the jokes.
Chasing, Anxiety, and the Case for Slowing Down
The first serious comment responds to the previous episode's discussion of chasing. There, Hussey had argued that chasing is not always bad and drew a distinction between pride and proactivity: too much pride is a problem, but too much proactivity means you end up doing all the work. The commenter, Alicia McIntyre, argues that much of Hussey's audience has a habit of chasing people who aren't interested, so "don't chase" is usually good advice even if they don't like hearing it. They believe they'll end up alone if they stop, but in the commenter's view they would do better by slowing down and holding higher standards.
Hussey agrees, and connects it to his own experience. He describes anxiety as his go-to emotion when he is off balance, and says anxiety speeds him up rather than slowing him down. When he worries he said the wrong thing or that someone feels badly about something he did, he races to fix it, and it is often in trying to fix things too quickly that he does something he regrets even more.
He maps this directly onto early dating. When we are anxious about whether someone likes us, he says, we tend to speed up: sending too many texts, making too many calls, and checking too often whether the other person is interested. That is when people make mistakes, say things they regret, or give away their power because the other person senses they are highly reactive. So the person who believes they must chase or else end up alone is, in his view, exactly the person who needs to slow down.
Does Stoicism Heal Self-Love or Hinder Intimacy?
The next comment offers a proposition: "Stoicism is healing self-love but hindering intimacy." Hussey says he doesn't think stoicism is bad in itself, but he sees a problem in how it lands with men in particular. He points to the large amount of male-focused literature on "the power of stoicism" and argues that one unfortunate side effect is that it makes men even harder on themselves for having emotions. Many men, in his view, need to be more emotional or share their emotions more, and that would be healthy. Stoicism, he says, is usually associated with suppressing feelings rather than sharing them, though he adds that he isn't saying it should be.
For that reason he finds the "healing" framing counterintuitive. He suggests that people who become obsessed with stoicism are probably people who could use more vulnerability and expression, and that being more open about their emotions would be a greater act of self-love and healing than shutting down what they feel in the name of bravery, courage, or being a strong masculine person.
David offers his own reading of the comment. He interprets it as saying stoicism takes external events and reduces their weight to match the scale of human experience: since life is impermanent and we all die, big moments can be met with calm and a degree of detachment. At its healthiest, David suggests, that might soothe the nervous system a little. But he thinks the idea gets "bastardized," and he agrees with Hussey that it can hinder intimacy because people become more disconnected from their feelings, less likely to show their natural instincts, and more closed off.
Two Filters: Equilibrium and Positivity
Hussey expands on why this matters for intimacy. For him, intimacy comes from being able to truly relate to one another, and what builds it, even with his male friends, is being able to sit and talk honestly about how they feel and what is on their minds.
He describes two filters that get in the way. The first is stoicism, the ability to maintain equilibrium, which flattens out whatever waves you are experiencing internally. The second, which he says many self-development-minded people add on top, is positivity or optimism. Asked how a hard situation is going, the person answers that it's all good and it's going to be great. When both filters run through a conversation, he argues, people are no longer interfacing at a deep level.
The friendships he enjoys most are ones where he and a friend can just talk openly and share feelings, and he finds that, ironically, to be the most healing thing. He comes away feeling better because he feels less alone when someone shares how they are struggling and figuring things out; he no longer feels like "an alien" for what he feels inside.
Returning to the idea of healing, Hussey says one of the most healing things you can do is acknowledge you're having a hard time and that it's normal to feel that way, whether because the circumstances really are difficult or because something has triggered a real experience from the past, and to have compassion for the part of you that feels those things. He says he is still in favor of practicing stoicism, but that in his own life he could probably have done with "a little less stoicism and a little more self-compassion."
Men Showing Emotion in the Comments
David reads a comment from the recent long-distance relationships episode, from a man who writes that he was building a connection with someone but got scared and ruined it. Maybe it was the right thing to do, he writes; he'll accept it and move on, hopes she isn't hurt, though for some reason he is. He ends by wishing other men well.
David observes that this kind of expression, where someone simply names their pain without needing a response, is something he more often sees from women in the comments, and that he likes seeing a man do it.
Hussey calls it beautiful and reflects on how the community has changed. Since the show started discussing issues between men and women more, he says, they have invited more men in, consciously or not, and with that comes "the best and the worst." He dislikes the division that sometimes shows up; he never wanted a community debating along gender lines, but one where people are there because they are excited about growing. It sometimes pains him to feel they have drawn in people without the best intentions.
At the same time, he says he is overjoyed when men in the comments are open and vulnerable, and he thinks this can be healing for women in the community. In his observation, many women underestimate how sensitive men are. He suggests this may be part of why women sometimes treat men poorly, being dismissive or rejecting people too coldly, because on the surface men can look unaffected, so the assumption is "he's fine, he's a guy." Hussey says many men, himself included, are deeply sensitive and are affected whether they show it or not. When men are vulnerable in the comments, women get to see that things affect men the way they affect them.
Why More Women Are Choosing to Stay Single
A comment on an earlier episode about projections that many women will be single argues that priorities have changed, the internet hasn't helped real connection, many women focus on financial independence and don't feel they need a partner, and in India especially more young women are saying no to marriage while men find it harder to find a wife. For many women, the commenter writes, being single is a conscious choice rather than a compromise. David finds this a fair assessment.
Hussey agrees that as people gain options, including the option of not being expected to find a husband, choices change. He is careful to say societal pressure hasn't disappeared: single people, especially as they get older, still feel a degree of ostracization and a subtle implication that something must be wrong with them. And some cultures still carry strong pressure. But for many people the pressure is less than it was.
He gives Japan as an example of a traditional culture where many women are thinking: I'm a 33-year-old woman with a great job, and if you're asking me to marry a man who expects me to stay home, take care of the kids, and be an obedient wife, I don't want any part of it. He adds that even in cultures that publicly profess equality, many individual men still expect women to manage the house or handle dinner, whether or not they say it.
In a world where both partners work and bring in money, he says, many women want a genuine teammate. If the choice is between maintaining the independence, routines, friendships, and hobbies they have built, or entering a relationship where they carry more of the weight despite contributing equally, the relationship isn't appealing. Hussey says he understands this and thinks women's standards have risen in ways they should have, which wasn't possible when women lacked the same opportunities. His conclusion is that men have to step up and learn.
Separating Polarity From Responsibilities
Hussey then complicates the picture. He says he does believe in masculine and feminine polarity. He loves when his wife Audrey is feminine and when she celebrates his masculinity, though he also thinks the topic is overdone and discussed "to such a boring degree." He and Audrey are not preoccupied with it. He knows men for whom masculinity seems to be top of mind all the time; he says he rarely thinks about it, and has both more masculine and more feminine sides that feel prominent. What he wants in Audrey is "a teammate," not "a princess," and she doesn't want a 1950s man who declares certain things aren't his job.
He says he doesn't think he has put it this way before: what people need to get better at is separating polarity and energy from using that polarity to justify each person's responsibilities, and how each person treats the other. Many women, he believes, still enjoy polarity; they just don't want it to define everything about who does what.
To illustrate, he compares it to the bedroom. Someone might enjoy being dominated sexually in a way that would be frightening in real life, but it works because it is consensual, playful role play and an energy exchange, not a wish to be dominated in every part of life. He suggests thinking of polarity the same way: a kind of role play that's fun and part of what makes a couple attracted to each other. But when it comes to maintaining the house, "we're maintaining the house," unless a couple has an explicit agreement, such as one person working outside all day while the other runs the home. The point isn't that everyone does the same amount of every task; it's being a team and figuring out who is best at what or who has time for what.
David sums it up: people may enjoy briefly role-playing a 1950s, Don Draper-style dynamic, but once you decide you're equals, much more ongoing communication is needed to stay updated on each other's needs.
Say What You Enjoy, Without Making It an Expectation
Hussey adds that there is nothing wrong with a man telling his partner he loves it when she makes him feel taken care of, such as making dinner, as long as he also makes clear he doesn't need it every night. Saying you love something, he stresses, is not the same as saying it is an expectation, and there's no shame in enjoying something more traditional.
The benefit of saying it, he argues, is that the partner learns it genuinely means a lot, rather than resentment building silently because it never happens. The same applies in reverse. His example: a woman in an equal relationship whose partner never plans dates, so every weekend they both look at each other asking what to do. She might say that once a month, if he went into "alpha male mode" and told her to put on a nice outfit because he's taking her somewhere, she'd find that hot. That gives him a road map to what attracts her, while acknowledging she doesn't need him in that mode all the time. Hussey says it would be exhausting if Audrey expected him to be the leader with a plan every second of the day, but he understands she finds it attractive when he plays that role sometimes.
A Temporary "Traditional" Chapter During Pregnancy
Hussey offers a personal example. The only Audrey he has known, he says, is someone working as hard as he is: first in TV, then as creative director of their company and co-host of the podcast. During her pregnancy she kept going at first, but in the last two or three months she slowed down considerably. They joke that she is now "a lady of leisure."
He says there is something nice about the current arrangement: he works, she does her own thing, and at the end of the day he tells her about a day she wasn't part of. Both of them, he says, are enjoying "almost the role play" of a more traditional model. But if Audrey wanted to go back to work six weeks after giving birth, that would be great, and he wouldn't insist she stay home now that he has seen what it's like. The polarity between them, he says, would still exist even if she went back to working as many hours as he does; it doesn't depend on the arrangement.
How Couples Grow Together Instead of Apart
A commenter who ended a relationship six months ago, because neither was what the other needed, asks what scares them most: when people grow and change, how do couples grow together rather than drift apart? David suggests the answer connects to what they have just discussed: being able to communicate what you find attractive, whether or not it fits gender norms.
Hussey says one of the most exquisite things about a great relationship is being able to truly share what matters to you and what you'd like more of, not as a mandate or obligation, but because you know your partner is committed to your happiness. That doesn't mean everything you ask for happens exactly as you want every time. What works in his relationship with Audrey, he says, is not that it's perfect, because it isn't, but that each knows the other genuinely cares about making them happy, asks what the other wants and enjoys, and treats making it happen as a kind of puzzle to solve together.
His hypothetical: if he told Audrey he felt he wasn't getting enough time for paintballing, his "new passion," and that it mattered to his happiness, she wouldn't call it stupid; she'd ask how to get him that time. (David points out that paintballing is not, in fact, a company activity.) Knowing she would respond that way means that when Audrey tells him she needs more of something, he might feel a flash of frustration at not having realized, but no lasting resentment, because he knows she would do the same for him.
His answer to the commenter is that couples grow together when they teach each other that they are completely on the same team regarding each other's happiness. If you trust that your partner is as serious about making your dreams come true as you are about theirs, he says, you can "breathe a giant sigh of relief." If dreams turn out to be incompatible, those become conversations rather than resentments.
He also says many people need to take some responsibility for growing apart. They stop telling their partner what they want, how they're frustrated, or where their needs aren't being met, start having those conversations with friends instead, and build resentment until their partner has no idea how far they've drifted until it's too late.
Taking AI Seriously: Matthew AI and a New Matchmaking App
David's final question is his own. Hussey is launching an AI-driven matchmaking app (referred to in the conversation as Sync), in which users talk to an AI coach that gets to know them and makes matches based on that understanding. David admits he, like most people, has some apprehension about AI, and asks how Hussey reconciles that with making AI central to a dating product.
Hussey says he takes it "really, really seriously" because he wants to be on the right side of things with AI. He describes Matthew AI, his earlier AI product trained on nearly 20 years of his content, as arguably the most popular thing they have ever created. By his account it has had a million or more conversations, is used by thousands of people each month, and feedback has been almost universally positive, which he puts at 99.5% or more. He sees its value in being available at 2 a.m. during heartbreak, when people don't always have someone to talk to, and heartbreak requires many hours of conversation. David adds that behind the scenes he watched how closely Hussey was involved in building it day to day.
Hussey says he had never dared enter the dating app space because he didn't think he had anything to add or that the world needed another app. That changed when he partnered with an engineer and someone with prior tech experience, and it felt like the project might be "genuinely additive." He says he doesn't like AI that decreases or replaces human connection; he wants to be involved in AI that supports human connection and creates more of it.
Dating App Burnout and Optimizing for Second Dates
Hussey says he has never seen as much negative sentiment about dating apps as now; there has always been some, but he describes it as reaching "a crescendo." The usual alternative is to go out more, which he says he has advocated throughout his career. But he acknowledges people are busy and tired: long workdays, families, kids, friends, bills waiting to be opened. After all that, dragging yourself to a bar or a jazz festival on the slim chance of meeting the love of your life, then coming home with less energy and doing it all again, is hard, and staying in with Netflix is easier.
He says they won't get everything right at the start and it will take time and energy, but he believes they can create a space designed for people who are serious about finding love. The process of talking to the AI and letting it get to know you is itself a filter, in his view: people who just want to swipe, hook up, or hang out can use Tinder, and won't want to go through it.
He also says the app is optimizing for second dates, not first dates. If first dates were the success metric, he explains, they would give people more matches, since people are attracted to many others, but that doesn't mean those matches lead to second dates. So the plan is to give fewer matches, aimed at people users are more likely to go further with.
Hussey closes by saying AI scares him, and that it scares him "appropriately." He doesn't want to get it wrong, and if he does, it won't be for lack of trying to get it right. But he believes they are creating a space that isn't currently available to people who are genuinely serious about finding a relationship.
There's a lot of male literature or male-focused literature these days on the power of stoicism. And I think in some ways one of the unfortunate side effects for men is it makes them even harder on themselves for having emotions. And a lot of men need to be more emotional, or they need to share their emotions more. That would be a healthy thing.
So I'm back with David today, the producer. Hello. You're normally behind the camera. You're back in front of the camera today.
I'm producing in front of the camera today.
And you're the voice of the audience who want to ask me things, get frustrated when we move on from a topic before they've had a chance to say what they wanted to say about it or to challenge me on something or whatever it may be. Even just get clarification. So you're going to be the person putting me in the hot seat today. The last time we did this, people loved it.
Yeah. So we're in it for round two. We still don't have a name for this. Some version of Grill Matt.
Toast Matt.
Toast Matt. If you have a better suggestion for what we should call this series, More from Matt, whatever, let us know. Podcast@matthewhussey.com. But let's get started.
I'm curious. Do you know off the top of your head what your most viewed video on YouTube is? I know that the "Who Should Pay on a Date" was—
That's a big one. I think that was the most viral video we ever did. I know that got released. We released that a couple of times, and both times it got on, I think it was on Facebook alone, had like 30 million views, and that was just on one platform. And we released it again.
And then everyone else released it on the internet too.
Yeah. And just took it.
That one definitely is a phenomenon. If you go to popular on our YouTube channel, you'll find "Three Man-Melting Phrases That Make a Man Fall for You." And I saw a funny comment on there the other day. It's kind of old. It's like two years old, but in the video you talk about comment on their style, tell them that they make you feel safe. There's a bunch of really funny comments in there about that one in particular, but I like the top comment.
About saying, "Feel safe"?
I don't know if you've looked at those. They're funny. I agree. I still agree with them. It's a great piece of advice, but somebody was like, "Cute cashier worker at McDonald's: 'Here's your fries.' 'You make me feel safe.'"
That's good.
Yeah, it's good. I mean, I like it. I think that there could be something out of that moment at McDonald's. But on that video, I liked, and I'm wondering if this revises any of your advice on here: Number one, buy him a guitar. Number two, buy him a Superman costume. Number three, tell him to do push-ups in your honor. I feel like those are three steps that would make any man fall for you.
Buy him a guitar.
Yeah. Superman costume.
If someone bought me a guitar, I'd be like, "Ah, there's one more thing I've got to do."
Yeah.
Buy him a Superman costume. That's quite good. If you said, "You should go as Superman for Halloween."
I think it's just an everyday thing.
Yeah.
Just here, like, "Put this on. I think this really suits you."
This is how I see you.
This is how I see you. And then, yeah, tell him to do push-ups in your honor. I mean, I'm on the floor doing as many as I can.
It's the "in my honor."
In my, yeah.
Yeah. I think that there's something that Russ—
We should make a new video with those three. I wanted to field some other comments from our last video that we did together. Alicia McIntyre said, kind of in response to our talking about chasing. I'm curious what you think about this, because you and I were talking. You made the point that chasing can sometimes be a good thing.
Yes.
And we had that distinction between pride versus proactivity. Too much pride is a bad thing. Too much proactivity and you're the one doing all of the work.
Exactly. "A large portion of Matthew's audience are people who have a habit of chasing people who aren't interested. So telling them to not chase is usually good advice because it helps them break their unhelpful patterns. Now they don't like hearing that. They are convinced that they will end up alone if they stop. But really they will have a better chance if they would slow down and have more standards."
Slowing down is important. As someone who relates very much to anxiety as a go-to emotion when I'm off balance, I know that anxiety speeds me up. It doesn't slow me down. So when I'm anxious, I feel like I have to fix something right now. Maybe I'm worried I said the wrong thing, or I'm worried that someone feels something bad about something I've done. I will then race to fix it. And it's often in trying to fix something too quickly that I'll then do something I regret even more.
And that perfectly kind of maps onto early dating, where if we are anxious about whether someone likes us, we're more likely to speed up than slow down. And it's in speeding up that we do everything in fast forward. We send too many texts. We make too many calls. We measure too often whether someone likes us. And that's when we're liable to either make mistakes, say things we regret, or give away our power because someone kind of feels like we're being highly reactive to them. So I do agree with that, that the kind of person who thinks, "I need to chase because otherwise I'm going to end up alone," is exactly the kind of person that needs to slow down.
Yeah, agreed. Somebody else commented on that video, fem nine wisdom: "Here's a topic. Stoicism is healing self-love but hindering intimacy."
Stoicism is healing self-love.
Yeah. Stoicism is healing self-love but hindering intimacy. The reason why is we almost talked about this on a podcast a couple weeks ago. I want to know what your read is on that first.
Interesting. Stoicism is healing self-love. See, I always associate—well, I don't think that stoicism in itself is a bad thing, but I think it often ends up, especially with men. There's a lot of male literature or male-focused literature these days on the power of stoicism. And I think in some ways one of the unfortunate side effects for men is it makes them even harder on themselves for having emotions. And a lot of men need to be more emotional, or they need to share their emotions more. That would be a healthy thing.
And stoicism, I think, is usually more associated with—I'm not saying that it should be, but it's more associated with suppressing feelings and emotions than it is with sharing them. So it's funny, in that context, I often think of stoicism as something that's not healing for people. It's like the type of people that get really obsessed with stoicism are probably people that could use a little more vulnerability and expression. And being more vulnerable and being more expressive about their emotions would actually be a greater act of self-love and healing than continuing just to shut what they're feeling down in the name of bravery or courage or being a strong masculine person. So I'm interested. What do you think this person meant by "stoicism is self-love"?
Yeah. Did she say self-love or self-healing?
Is healing self-love.
Yeah. So can you make sense of that?
My read on it was that it heals self-love in that stoicism is the art of taking external stimuli and diminishing the gravity of them to actually scale with the human experience. These things that are in our life that are these huge moments, they should be dealt with with calm and with kind of almost disconnection from them because in the reality of where we are as living beings, it's so impermanent and we all die. It kind of is diminishing those. And I think that that is healing. The most healthy goal of it would be that it heals your nervous system a little bit.
I think that it's taken and bastardized a little bit. But I think it does hinder intimacy for exactly what you just said, which was you now become more disconnected with your emotional feelings. You become less likely to display your natural instincts, and therefore you can kind of become closed off to people.
Well, I think intimacy is born out of our ability to truly relate to each other. For me, what builds intimacy even with my male friends is to be able to sit there and have an honest conversation about how we're feeling and about what's on our mind. And those aren't conversations where it feels productive to just have that filter of either—there's one filter, which is stoicism, which is your ability to just maintain an equilibrium with what's going on. And then the second filter that a lot of self-development-minded people add on top of stoicism is positivity, optimism.
So now what you get is two filters. One where you've already kind of leveled out whatever waves you might be experiencing internally. And then the second one where you're bringing out the sunshine and talking about how it's going to be great. Like, "How are you doing with that thing? I know you were having a hard time." "Oh yeah, it's all good, and you know what? It's going to be great." When we do that too much in conversation, we're no longer truly interfacing at a deep level. Everything's going through these filters.
So the friendships I really enjoy are the ones where I can sit with a bud and we can just talk openly and share feelings. And I find that, ironically, to be the most healing thing. Those are the conversations where I come away feeling better because I feel less alone when someone shares with me the ways that they're struggling and stumbling and figuring things out. I go away not feeling like an alien for the way I feel inside.
To go back to that idea of "stoicism is healing self-love," I actually think one of the most healing things you can do is acknowledge that you're having a hard time and that it's normal that you're feeling that this is difficult. Whether it's normal because the actual circumstances of what you're going through aren't easy, or whether it's normal that you feel this way because whatever's going on right now has triggered something from the past that was very real. And you're having compassion for the you that feels these things. So I'm all for stoicism. I think stoicism is an important thing to practice in life. But I think that I could probably have done in my life with a little less stoicism and a little more self-compassion.
I noticed this comment, and I think this was from our long-distance podcast that we did recently, from JP Hive 2468. "I was building a connection with someone but then got scared and ruined it. Maybe it was the right thing to do. I'll just have to accept what it is and move on. Hopefully she's not hurt. For some reason I kind of am. Good luck and much blessings to other men out there in the world."
I think I see this kind of expression happen a lot of the time from at least female-presenting people in the comments, where it's just these moments of, "I feel this. I feel this. I'm experiencing pain. This is my situation." It's almost like there doesn't need to be a response. It's this kind of thing that you were talking about where you are fielding your—and there's something that can be very healing about that. And I like noticing that this was a gentleman who decided to do this, at least display some emotion in the comments. And I think that that's kind of cool.
I think it's really beautiful. And it's funny, since we started to talk a little bit more about some of the issues between men and women that we see going on right now, we've kind of invited more men to the table, consciously or unconsciously. And with that, you get the best and the worst. You get some division in the comments, which I don't love because I never wanted to build a community that was debating with each other in these ways. And I wanted to just build a community that were all here because they were excited about growing and didn't see it as an us versus them between genders. So it sometimes pains me to almost feel like we've invited in people who don't necessarily have the best intentions with the way they're having the conversation.
But equally, I feel really overjoyed when I see especially men in the comments who are just being open and vulnerable and connecting with other people. And it really opens up a very beautiful dialogue between men and women. And I think that that side of it can be quite healing for the women in our community because one of the things I've noticed about a lot of women is they don't realize how sensitive men are or can be.
And sometimes, by the way, I think that is why women treat men poorly when they do, when they're a bit dismissive or they reject people too coldly. For a lot of women, I think there is a tendency to completely underestimate how much men feel because men do look more kind of like, on the surface at least, it doesn't feel like it affects them. And it's like, "Ah, he's fine. He's a guy." But so many guys, myself included, are deeply sensitive, and they do get affected by things whether they show it or not. And I think the comment section, when men are vulnerable, it's a wonderful place for women to see, "Oh my God, I didn't know things affected men like that, like they do me."
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On our podcast we did recently, the "50% of Women Will Be Single by 2025" or 2035, I was curious what you think about this comment. "Not surprised women are choosing to stay single these days. Priorities have changed for both men and women, and honestly the internet hasn't helped real connections. Many women now focus on financial independence, don't feel the need to rely on a partner, and"
Some are even moving abroad. In India, especially, more young women are saying no to marriage, while men are finding it harder to find a wife, something that was much easier to do a generation ago. The cultural landscape is evolving, and with it, the definition of what it means to live a fulfilled life. For many women today, being single is not a compromise. It's a conscious choice.
I thought that was very fair. A good estimation of how things are evolving. Do you have any thoughts on that?
I think that as people find themselves with options in life, and an option could just be the societal norm that I'm not expected to just find a husband. Certainly, we've not overcome every societal norm. Single people, the older they get, still feel a level of ostracization. Is that a word? But they feel like there's this subtle implication that there's something wrong with them, or that, well, you're not with someone. Why aren't you with someone? What's going on? So I'm not saying there's no societal norm of people feeling outcast in some way for being single, or like they're questioned for it.
But there's not the societal pressure that there was for many people. In some countries there are, in some cultures there is. More and more, even in—you take a culture like Japan, where there's a traditional culture, but many women are finding themselves in a place of going, "I don't feel traditional in that way. I'm a woman with a great job who's 33. If what you're asking me to do is marry a guy who still thinks it's my job to be at home and to take care of the kids and to be an obedient wife, then [__] it. You can keep it to yourself. I don't want any part of it." And more and more people feel that way.
And I think that there's certain cultures that haven't caught up. There are also certain kinds of men, even in cultures that have caught up, where openly, publicly, the culture is, "No, no, no, we're all equals here." But there's still many, many individual men in those cultures who still expect a woman to be a certain way in a relationship. And still, whether they say it or not, there's still an implication that these things are your job. They're not my job as a man. And I expect you to still take care of me, and I expect you to be the one who manages the house or takes care of dinner or this or that.
And in a world where women are doing, "I'm working as hard as you, dude. We're both out there doing this and bringing in money," a lot of women are like, "I want a genuine teammate." It's not that they want a guy to suddenly be all of those things. It's they want a teammate. And in the absence of a genuine team, if it feels like at least my options are maintain my independence and the life I've built for myself and the routines and the habits and the friendships and hobbies—if it's maintain all of that or get into a relationship where I'm suddenly expected to pull more of the weight than you are in the relationship, when ostensibly we're living the same life and we're contributing in the same ways, then yeah, I don't want it. Sorry, it's not appealing.
And I understand that, and I think that's right. That's right. Women's standards have gone up in ways that women's standards should have gone up, but, by the way, couldn't have gone up at a time when they didn't have the same opportunities. So I really think men have to step up and learn.
I'm not even making an argument here about—I believe to an extent, I think there's a lot of this that gets overdone and just, God, talked about to such a boring degree. But I do believe in polarity. I do believe in masculine, feminine, and the idea that there's moments where, as a masculine guy, I love Audrey being feminine, and I love moments where she celebrates my masculinity, and I'm not denying that.
But me and Audrey do not live our lives obsessed with masculine and feminine polarity. It is not a subject that we are steeped in all the time. I know guys who are preoccupied with their masculinity. It feels like it's top of mind for them all the time, and I don't think about it really. I have certain things I do in my life that are more masculine. I have other things I do in my life that are more feminine. I have both parts of me I feel are very prominent. But it's not an obsession to me. I want a teammate in Audrey. I don't want a princess. I want a teammate.
She wants a teammate in me. She doesn't want a '50s man who says, "I'm not going to do this, and I won't have any part of that, and whatever. That's all your job." But we also enjoy that polarity as well. To me, that's healthy. And I think that there's a lot of women who are coming up against men who aren't just—a lot of women still want that polarity, and they enjoy that polarity, but they don't want that energy that can be very attractive between genders to actually define everything about the responsibilities of the relationship.
And I don't think I've actually stated this in this way before, but I think that what we have to start getting better at is distinguishing and separating out polarity and energy from using that polarity as a justification for the responsibilities that we have within the relationship, and what each person does and how each person treats the other one.
I actually think it's possible to separate them in the same way, by the way, that we separate who we are in the bedroom and what we like to do in the bedroom from what we actually believe and do in our everyday life. Someone might enjoy being dominated in the bedroom in ways that, if it was true in real life, they'd be quite scary. But in the bedroom, it's fun because it's a role play. There's an energy exchange that's sexy and fun and playful, and so we're all consenting to that experience. But that same couple where one dominates the other in the bedroom, that person doesn't wish to be dominated in every aspect of their life. It's a place they go.
And I think we have to start thinking of polarity in that same way in our relationships, that there's a kind of role play here that's really fun, and I like to play this role, and you like to play that role, and that's what makes us attracted to each other. But then when it comes time to who's maintaining the house, it's like, no, we're maintaining the house. We're doing that together, unless we have an agreement and it's like, "Hey, you're out working all day. I'm doing that. That's the deal, and those are the roles." Fine. And we haven't got a problem with that either. It's not about we all have to do the same amount of every job. You're a team, so figure out who's best at what or who has time for what. But I do understand that so many women these days feel like there's just a lot of catching up that men have to do to where they are and what their expectations are. And I do, I feel for them.
Yeah. I think that's really interesting, the idea that we almost like to role play in the 1950s, like Don Draper thing for a second, in a relationship in certain moments. It can be fun, but the reality, I think, of people interacting with each other is that when you decide that you're equals, there's an intense amount of communication that then needs to happen on an ongoing basis so that you continue to be updated on the other person's needs. And yeah, so we can exist in these two things. It would be nice if it was just as simple as—we can indulge in what that would look like for a moment, but for most modern relationships, I think the reality is we need to be a little bit more dynamic, right?
Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with saying to your partner, "I really enjoy when you..." Listen, I don't think there's anything wrong as a man with saying, "I really enjoy when I come home and you make me feel taken care of. When you make me dinner, I love it. There's something about it. I don't need you to do it every night." Saying you love it isn't the same as saying it's an expectation. You can acknowledge something you really enjoy, and I don't think there's any shame in that either. I'm not saying, "Hey men, you can't tell your partner that you enjoy something that is much more classic or traditional in the kind of..."
I think actually you're encouraging that communication to happen because then you're understanding the areas where that can exist and it can be fun.
Yeah. And she gets to know, "Oh, that's something that really does mean a lot to you," as opposed to he's building up some kind of resentment that that never happens. She's like, "No, when I can do that, that's something that does actually mean a lot to him." And vice versa. If you find that you're in a relationship of equals with a guy, but your guy never plans a date, it's like every time it comes to, "What should we do tonight?" you both look at each other and you go, "Yeah, what shall we do tonight?"
If you're like, "Hey, some of these moments, I don't need you to do it every time we're thinking about what to do for a weekend, but once a month, if you go into alpha male mode and you're like, 'Hey, put on a nice outfit. I'm taking you somewhere,' that's hot to me." You're then giving someone a road map into something that's attractive to you while also acknowledging that I don't need you to live in this mode all the time as a man. And I get that it would be [__] exhausting for you. If we lived in a mode where Audrey expected me to be Mr. Leader every second of the day, always a plan, "Here's what we're doing next," and whatever, I would be exhausted by that. But I also understand that that's really hot for her sometimes when I play that role.
I think what's interesting is, since me and Audrey, since we met each other, I've known no different than when we first met, she was working hard in TV, and she was doing her own thing, and that was time-consuming for her. And then she ended up working with us, and we ended up partnering in this organization, and she became this powerhouse creative director in the company and co-hosted the podcast and did all these things. And then she got even busier. And the only Audrey I've ever known is the one that is working as hard as I am and is grinding and making things happen.
But what's funny is, since Audrey got pregnant, over the last nine months, she started that way. She kept going and going and going, and then in the last two or three months, she really started to slow down. And we joke about it because she's joking that she's now a lady of leisure because she's not working and she's not doing anything.
And I joke that it's kind of nice. There's something kind of nice about I'm working and she's doing her thing, and then at the end of the day we meet up and I talk about my day, which she doesn't know all about because she hasn't been working in it with me all day. And we're both enjoying almost the role play of a more traditional model that's happening. But if Audrey wanted to go back to work six weeks after giving birth, then great. I'm not like, "And now I want you to live here. There's no going back now that you've shown me what this life is like." I'm like, it's kind of fun. There is something kind of fun about it. And from her side, she's like, "This is kind of fun. You're the man working, and I'm taking time off." But honestly, that polarity between us in energies would still exist even if two months from now she goes back to working as many hours as I am. It doesn't change the polarity of the relationship.
I realized about myself recently that one of the things I value the most is feeling comfortable and being cozy. And I finally got myself some bamboo pajamas from Cozy Earth. They are buttery soft, lightweight, super breathable, and somehow they make me feel kind of pulled together and relaxed at the same time, which is a very rare combination for me these days as I am eight and a half months pregnant.
I've also been using their bubble cuddle blanket along with their silk pillows. The combination of the two has made a really big difference to how relaxed I feel at the end of the day. The blanket has a textured design that feels calming and cozy. And the silk pillows are really, really gentle on your skin. Silk pillows, by the way, are a little bit of a beauty hack. They have a ton of benefits for your hair and your skin. All of these pieces make great gifts.
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I think also this was in the long-term relationship episode we did recently, which is from OJ Hitman 147. "My ex and I ended things six months ago because we just weren't what the other person needed. I'm still wrestling with it. The part that really scares me: when people grow and change, how do couples grow together instead of drifting apart?"
I almost think that what we were just talking about kind of loops into that. I think that's a really powerful thing that you could loop into your relationship, is that level of acknowledgement and communication of what you find attractive, whether it fits into gender norms or is completely counter to them. That can be something that I think especially men could work on playing in that world a little bit more.
I think one of the most exquisite things about a great relationship is the ability to really truly share the things that matter to you, the things that you would like more of, the things that are important to you, and not to share them as some kind of mandate or an obligation, I should say, but to just share them because you know you've got a partner who, at the end of the day, is really committed to your happiness. You are with someone who really, really, really wants you to be happy and takes the things you say seriously. And that doesn't mean that everything you say comes to pass exactly how you're wanting it to or 100% of the time.
But I don't want to be too self-referential here, but I can say that the thing that really works about mine and Audrey's relationship is not that it's perfect all the time, because it absolutely isn't. It's that what we both know about each other is we really, really care about making the other one happy, and we really care about knowing, what are your goals? What do you really want? What do you really enjoy? Okay, now it becomes almost a puzzle of how do I be a partner in making that happen for you, however big or small it is? And what makes me want to do that even more is that I know that she's doing the same thing for me.
I know that if I said to her very seriously, "I just really want to—I feel like I'm not getting enough time to go paintballing. Paintballing is my new passion."
You're not. We aren't as a
Company, as an organization, we're not.
But if I was like, this is a deep lack for me, that I'm not doing this, and it matters to me, and I feel like I need to do this on a regular basis in order to be happy, she wouldn't be like, "But paintballing is so stupid."
Yeah. Well, no one would do that, right? Of course, she's not crazy.
She would say, "Okay, if that's really important to you, let's figure out what that means. Let's figure out how to get you that time." And knowing that she would be like that is what means that when she comes to me and says something's really important, or "I feel like I'm not getting enough of this," I'm not resentful. I might have a little bit of frustration, like, "I didn't know I was not doing a good job in that area." There might be a little, but at the end of the day, any possible resentment I could have is dissolved by the fact that I know if the tables were turned and I was saying this to her, she would be like, "What can I do to make this happen?"
And so that's a kind of indirect answer to what this commenter is saying, but I think the question was, how do you make sure you grow together instead of apart?
Yeah.
I think it's recognizing that if you teach each other that you're absolutely on the same team when it comes to your happiness, that there is no distinction between the two of you. It's like, I am here to make your dreams come true, and you're here to make my dreams come true, and we both trust that we're both as serious about that as the other one is. It's almost like you breathe a giant sigh of relief because you go, "Well, if I've got the best teammate I'll ever have, and they're committed to making my dreams come true, then we're good. We've got each other."
And then, of course, in terms of, "Oh, what if our dreams are incompatible?" and whatever, then okay, those become conversations. But again, they become conversations, not resentments, because as two people who desperately, desperately care about making each other happy, it's all on the table as a conversation as opposed to just building up resentment inside.
And there's a lot of people, by the way, who need to take some responsibility for the growing apart because they drift, and they stop telling their partner what they really want or the ways that they're frustrated or the ways that their needs aren't getting met. And then the conversations they should be having with their partner, they start having with their friends. And then over time, they just build up more and more resentment, and their partner has no idea just how far they're drifting until it's too late.
One more question for you, and this one's from my brain, which is, you are launching what you call a relationship app.
Sync.
And it's a very interesting concept.
Like a matchmaking app.
A matchmaking app.
That's what it is. Yeah, a matchmaking app.
It's driven by AI, where you talk to a coach, essentially. It gets to know you, and then it develops its matches based off of how well it knows you. As someone who I have, in our conversations just out in the living room, who has a level, as most people do, of not distrust in artificial intelligence, but a little apprehension in artificial intelligence, how do you interact with that feeling as an individual person, but then also having it be this linchpin to something that could be really cool in the way that dating apps could serve us better?
I take it really, really seriously because I want to be on the right side of things when it comes to AI. Matthew AI has been one of our most popular things we've ever created. There's an argument to say it's the most popular thing we've ever created.
Yeah.
It's had a million or more conversations with people at this point. Thousands and thousands and thousands of people use it every month. So my first foray into the world of AI in a serious way, outside of just playing with ChatGPT myself, was the release of Matthew AI, which is trained on nearly 20 years of content. What makes that as good as it is is that it's been trained on so much really good stuff, but it has been almost universally positive. Some people will say negative. You can't have 100% of people saying positive things, but it's like 99.5%, if not more, of people are like, "This is amazing, and this has really helped me."
So in that sense, I'm happy because I know that at 2:00 a.m., when you're going through heartbreak, you don't always have someone to talk to, and certainly not for as many hours as you need, because heartbreak requires many, many, many, many, many hours of conversation. So that was a very positive experience of AI for me, was to see what it was doing for people there.
I also think that people behind the scenes, they don't see how—I saw how involved you were in its creation. And I remember every day coming in and seeing this thing grow, and how it's still this almost growing conversation with Matthew AI, with this product itself. It's really interesting to see how actually nitty-gritty you're into its operation and its creation.
Thank you. I take that seriously, and I don't want to get it wrong. And I know it has the power to help a lot of people, but I take the responsibility of it very seriously. And the way that that translated into Sync, which is this thing—I've never dared step into the dating app space because I didn't feel I had anything to add. I didn't feel the world needed another dating app. When I got the chance, because I came together with two engineers—or one engineer and one person who had been in the tech space before—when I got the chance to do this, it felt like, you know what, this might be genuinely additive. I don't like AI where it decreases human connection.
Or replaces it.
Or replaces it. I want to be involved in AI where it supports human connection and creates more of it. And if you look at what's happening in dating, there's dating apps that are burning people out at a level today that I've never seen before. I've never seen so much negative sentiment around dating apps. And there's always been negative sentiment, but it is like a crescendo right now, how sick and tired people are of dating apps.
But the alternative for people is just to get outside. By the way, I'm a huge proponent of that. I've been talking about it. You can look back on my career. It's all I've ever really spoken about, is not get on more dating apps, but get outside more. But we're also busy. We're tired. We're working long days, many of us, most of us. We have families, responsibilities, might have kids. We're trying to fit in our friends, pay the bills that are sitting on the windowsill at home, and we need to open that letter. And there's so many things that make up a life that at the end of doing all of them, we're just tired.
And the idea of, and now on top of that, I am going to drag myself to a bar/rest or some jazz festival near my house or some this, some that, whatever it may be, with just the chance that maybe the love of my life is going to be there tonight, but probably not. And then I'll go home with a little bit less energy again, ready, having to do the whole thing again tomorrow with my work and everything else. Of course, for most people, it's easier to stay in and watch their favorite show on Netflix or wherever else.
And I'm not saying that—we're not going to get it perfect in the beginning. It's going to take time and energy, but I back us to create a place, a space where, A, people who are not being intentional about finding love don't even get through the process. Because if you're not serious, you can be on Tinder and just swipe and connect and hook up and hang out, whatever. You're not going to go through talking to Sync and letting it get to know you. And if you're not serious, the process itself is not going to be something you're going to want to go through.
And then on top of that, when it matches you with people, there's a reason why with Sync, we're not optimizing for first dates. We're optimizing for second dates. And the reason is, if we were optimizing for first dates, if we saw that as a metric for success, then we'd give people a lot more matches because we know, well, you'll be attracted to this many people, but that doesn't mean that with that many people you're going to end up on a second date. So the idea is to give you less matches because we're optimizing for second dates and people that you're actually going to go further with.
So I'm very conscious. I'm actually very glad you asked me this because I'm very conscious every step of the way on this that I want to be on the right side of history with AI.
Mhm.
It scares me, and it scares me appropriately. I don't want to get it wrong. If I get it wrong, it won't be for lack of trying to get it right. But I do believe that we're going to create a space, and we are creating a space, that is not available to people right now who are genuinely serious about finding a relationship.
Guys, before you go, don't forget to take me up on the Black Friday offer for Matthew AI. Two whole weeks unlimited. Ask it anything you want, as much as you want for two whole weeks, and you can cancel at any time before the trial ends. AskMH.com is the link for that. Go there now and get it before it disappears. I'll see you next time.
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