Measuring What Matters: Metrology, On-the-Job Training, and Staying Fulfilled in Manufacturing
Manufacturing Happy Hour
This episode of Manufacturing Happy Hour brought together three people who approach measurement from very different places. Steve Ilmrud runs North American operations for Hexagon Manufacturing Intelligence, Jeff Van Horn owns and serves as senior project manager at Industrial Technology Solutions Inc., and Randy Smith is a CNC programmer and machinist in aerospace and defense. Host Chris started with a subject the show had never directly addressed, metrology, and used it to reach a broader question: how do measurement, proactive training, and access to modern tools build competent people, and why do these three still find the work satisfying after decades in it?
What Metrology Is and Isn't
Steve's first point was that metrology is not meteorology. He admitted he didn't know the difference for many years, and joked that if he could predict the weather he'd probably have another job. His basic definition is that metrology is the science of measuring things. The branch he, Jeff, and Randy work in is industrial metrology, which he described as making sure the things they produce are accurate and reliable.
Jeff framed it in terms of data. He quoted a saying he likes, "In God we trust. Everybody else has to bring good data," and said the message he repeats to his crews is "verify, verify, verify." To show how hard the basics can be to pin down, he described a meeting at U.S. Steel the day before the recording. It was scheduled for 45 minutes and he left seven hours later. About an hour of it went to defining what metrology is and how it differs from what surveyors do.
On-Machine Probing on the Shop Floor
Randy gave the machinist's view. He said the simplest use of spindle probes is making setups easier, and that current probing software is easy enough for someone who has never used a probe. His example was stock with saw-cut lengths that vary quite a bit. A probing cycle can locate the stock and find its centerline, so that when the outside is milled the same amount comes off each side. Later operations can use probes to pick up datums or specific features on the part. In Randy's view this means fixtures and tooling don't have to be extremely accurate: "I can let that float a little," because the probe will pick up the feature every time. He called these the low-hanging fruit, things a shop can start doing now with very little effort and training.
He then described using probes in automated pallet systems running overnight. If a critical feature measures undersize, the machine can probe it, compensate the tool, and recut it. If the feature is oversize, Randy said there is arguably no reason to keep going. The system should reject the pallet, set a flag, notify the operator that something needs attention, and load the next job so the machine doesn't sit idle. He said most automation and pallet systems have a setting that allows this. His conclusion was that real-time inspection and feedback is critical regardless of what parts you make, and saves a lot of time and aggravation.
Measuring Change: Steel, Heat, and the Las Vegas Sphere
Chris asked Jeff how people misuse metrology compared with how it should be used. Jeff described good practice more than misuse. Metrology, in his description, is the study of numbers for decision-making: looking at small deltas, looking for reliability, and building confidence that machines are installed correctly and steel is fabricated and erected in the right place. His firm tracks fabrication jobs to learn what heat, cold, and weld procedures do to the steel. He described metrology as measuring "the changes or deltas in a process."
When Chris asked what happens if those factors aren't measured, Jeff used the Las Vegas Sphere as the example. His team fabricated the trellis, the outer structure that holds the exterior screen, in a shop to a tight tolerance. The pieces were then trucked through the desert, exposed to vibration and large temperature swings. Jeff said he could be "burning up in 90 degrees and looking at snow caps." At the site, a steel erector wanted to know who had done the metrology back at the shop, because the steel was an inch off. Jeff's team then started monitoring what transport, heat, and cold did to the steel. He said steel has stress-relieving properties, and how you treat it and handle it "is everything that you need to know."
One practical result: on large job sites, pieces are often flown into place early in the morning before sunrise. Jeff attributed that practice to the measurements they took, and said you'd be "crazy as heck" to fly something in during the afternoon sun, because in his view expansion is much worse than contraction. Chris summarized the point as using measurement to anticipate material changes and plan for them. Jeff agreed and added that the goal is to do everything possible to help the field erectors.
Metrology Is Everywhere: Airplanes and Offline-to-Inline Inspection
Steve started his career in jet engines. He argued that almost everything made in a factory, from the coffee pot to the car to the cell phone, is measured somewhere during production, even though people rarely think about it. His main example was aircraft. An airplane's fuselage might be made in France, its engines in the U.S., and its tail in Germany. Each factory uses metrology to control the dimensions and geometry of its own parts, and that data is also shared with the final assembler so everything fits when the pieces meet. "You can't grow or shrink these parts," he said. Being an inch off at final assembly is a serious problem.
Steve also described how inspection itself has changed. Traditionally a finished part went to a CMM lab, where "the guy in the white lab coat" declared it good or bad. He said the industry has moved from that offline approach to near-line and then inline inspection, where parts are checked while they are being made. That lets manufacturers monitor the process and avoid producing scrap or rework in the first place, which he considered a much more efficient way to run an operation.
NASCAR: Optimizing Parts That Are Supposed to Be Identical
Asked how metrology helps manufacturers make the best possible products, Steve talked about Hexagon's work with NASCAR teams. Teams used to build their own chassis and body panels within the rules, so a car's quality varied a lot from team to team. To create parity, NASCAR now has one company supply those components to every team.
In theory every team now gets identical parts. Steve said some teams measure every part they receive anyway, because the parts aren't perfect and some are "big and small and twisted and curved." They use that data to decide how to build the best possible car each week from what they have. Steve said the teams doing this are winning a lot of races.
Speed as a Result: Rapid Alignment at U.S. Steel
Chris brought up something a professor once told Jeff: people only care about results. For Jeff's clients, the main result is how quickly a job gets done. Jeff went back to the U.S. Steel visit, where much of the discussion was about getting results faster. He estimated that about 80% of the people there had never seen a Leica tracker, and they were impressed when they saw the AT500 and ATS600.
The client asked Jeff's team to check a roll's alignment on a cold mill line that was about to be commissioned and to see how quickly they could establish control. Jeff said the client first noticed the startup time. According to Jeff, competitors' equipment takes 45 minutes to an hour to warm up. His team set control with the AT500, which Jeff said reaches 500 feet in each direction, and used the ATS600 to scan the roll. They had all the data in about 35 minutes. Jeff said the client told them the competitor usually takes about four hours. He attributed this to process, and added that there's "no substitute for knowledge either."
Reliability, the Vital Few, and Driving Rework Toward Zero
On reliability, Jeff said the key is understanding the process and focusing on "the vital few items versus the trivial many." He described his team as people with backgrounds in mathematics, statistics, and engineering. In his experience, the problems hurting a client the most, usually rework, are fairly easy to identify at the start. Current equipment also lets them do work such as crane evaluations without shutting operations down. He said he's tired of managers telling him a shutdown costs a million dollars an hour: "I didn't put them in that position. We're trying to help them get out of it." Good statistics and data going into a project, he said, is what supports reliability.
Asked how he takes rework to zero, Jeff said the answer is training everyone, including millwrights, steel erectors, fabricators, and fitters, to use metrology and to know when to call it in. You can't wait until parts are finished to inspect them, especially in fabrication shops. Anything not caught during the process ends up as rework. He also noted that some tape measures in the field are out of tolerance. People laugh when he says rework can go to zero, he said, but his company has a 40-year track record that he says proves it. He called it a mindset and a paradigm shift.
Building Inspection Into the Program, Not Adding It Afterward
Randy connected this to his own tools, specifically Hexagon's ESPRIT CAM software. It includes an add-on for programming probing cycles inside the system. Randy said probing routines used to be hand-coded because they weren't well supported. In his opinion Hexagon has done "an outstanding job" of bringing this into the software, so probing moves can be simulated, checked for collisions and clearance, and built into the program from the start.
His larger point was about mindset. Probing should go into the program at the beginning, not as an afterthought. When a programmer sees tight tolerances or key features, such as a feature that locates the part for the next operation or a tight-tolerance hole, getting it wrong means either rework, which he called painful and costly, or scrapping the part and losing all the time and material already spent on it. Randy argued that manufacturers need to allow time in the process for these checks and think ahead about what could go wrong: delivery delays, lost goodwill with customers, lost cash. Until shops accept that inspection has value at the front end as well as the back end, he said, they'll keep reacting to problems instead of preventing them.
Modern Tools as a People Strategy
Steve had said before the episode that attracting and retaining people depends on flexibility, training, and access to modern tools. He focused on the tools. Because he runs Hexagon's factories in the Americas, he said, whenever Hexagon acquires a company with new hardware or software, he's on the phone asking how to get it into his factories.
Hexagon has a machine shop that makes its high-value machined parts. When Steve arrived a couple of years earlier, he found that some CNC programs were 20 years old and hadn't been reviewed in a long time. Using ESPRIT, the shop built a digital twin of its actual process and simulated different cutter paths and machining approaches offline, without disrupting production. In his words, they made their mistakes "in a virtual world where you don't crash machines, you don't crash parts, you don't hurt anybody." He said this greatly improved productivity by modernizing the programs, and also gave employees a technology they can use at Hexagon or wherever they work later.
He also mentioned NCSIMUL, a Hexagon simulation tool with a workstation trainer that can simulate different controllers. Employees can virtually run CNC machines or CMMs for safe offline training.
Steve believes the products themselves help keep people engaged. He said Hexagon's CMMs typically measure to about a micron. For scale, he said a sheet of paper is about 100 microns thick, so some of their CMMs measure within one micron across their full measuring volume, about 1% of a sheet of paper. He added that some ultra-high-accuracy machines reach one-third of a micron. It isn't a jet engine "spewing fire out the back end," he said, but he thinks the engineering is impressive, and that exposure to this kind of technology is part of what draws people in and keeps them.
Learning to Listen: Jeff's Madison Square Garden Story
Chris asked Jeff how he helps his teams understand what tools are available, referring to a Madison Square Garden story. Jeff first wasn't sure which story Chris meant and briefly mentioned a different project before returning to the question. His answer was an admission: one of his biggest personal challenges is listening. The Madison Square Garden project, he said, became very successful and accurate largely because of the ATS600, and he had been against using it. A couple of demonstrations changed his mind.
He took a broader lesson from it: "we're all students for the rest of our lives." He said that in his 60s he's probably one of the hardest-working students in his organization. On that project, he said, his team learned from steel erectors, engineers, and site surveyors, and his advice was to never close your ears to ideas.
Chris mentioned another of Jeff's lines, that you can learn and train on the job and still beat the old production numbers. Jeff agreed. People thought "an old man" couldn't beat them, he said, and his team didn't just win, they "killed them." What matters, in his view, is working smart rather than hard. He added that metrology is a control. If you stop using it, "you just go back to ground zero again," which is why training has to be continuous. Otherwise rework comes back and costs go up.
Randy's Worst-Case Thinking as a Training Method
Randy believes you should prepare for problems that haven't happened yet. He said one of his "superpowers" is imagining the worst case: someone puts the wrong tool in the spindle, loads the part slightly shifted, or transposes a number. He described these as honest mistakes. Someone reads one thing, grabs another, and nothing in the process catches it.
When he trains people, he uses these situations as scenarios. Suppose a dimension wasn't hit, or the roughing tool wore out too soon, or the finishing tool didn't perform. A check could go in at that point to measure and update, or to set a flag that says "come look at me." He points out when a missed dimension would cascade through later operations, and he doesn't consider these scenarios unrealistic. Some come from things he has seen, others from things he can imagine happening.
His approach is to lead people toward answers instead of handing them over, even though as subject-matter experts he and his colleagues often already know the answer. He wants people to think critically, which he believes builds confidence. He finds it rewarding when someone takes a small piece of what he taught, recognizes they've done something similar before, and applies it somewhere new. He also suggested that a simple question on the floor can become an impromptu 10- or 15-minute training session.
Magic Wands, Pain Points, and Eating the Elephant
In a follow-up, Chris asked how Randy gets people to ask the right questions and be willing to learn on the job. Randy said he tries to encourage curiosity. He asks people what they think the shop can't do, or what they would do with a magic wand, and he asks about pain points: what would make their day much better if it were solved. Not every idea is possible, he said, but digging in often shows the solution is easier than expected, sometimes because inspection probes or software can already handle it and people didn't know.
He said large projects can look overwhelming, including to him, so he uses the "how do you eat an elephant" approach and breaks them into small pieces. When no one is sure something can be done, his answer is to try it: take measurements, inspect, record the data. He said he and others have often found the job wasn't as hard as they thought, and that it mostly took confidence and tenacity. He also mentioned side benefits. Researching a system variable, a machine function, or a software feature adds another tool that can be applied across the shop.
The Paradigm Shift Depends on the Organization
Chris returned to Jeff's paradigm shift and asked whether more people are now willing to change. Jeff said it depends on the company's "aptitude." He is blunt about it: if someone isn't willing to change how they think and work, he's "really not interested in working with you." His method is to get buy-in from everyone, then produce quick wins to show it works. His example was a Kaizen event that involves all the different groups. Once everyone buys in and sees a success, he said, the mindset changes remarkably fast.
Steve's Three Ps: People, Parts, Process
Chris asked Steve to summarize manufacturing operations in terms of people, parts, and process. Steve said the framework came from a hard point in his career, about 10 years earlier. His company launched a product before it was technically ready and before the supply chain was set up. He called it one of the most challenging periods of his career, when everything that could go wrong did. Trying to get a handle on it, he reduced the problem to three Ps, and he said most challenges since then can be approached the same way.
People come first and matter most. That means the right people with the right attitude, education, and willingness to learn, in an environment where they enjoy the work, understand the goals, and communicate well. Parts means supply chain, which Steve said is difficult right now whether sourcing is local or foreign. He said there's no magic pill. Suppliers come and go and have their own problems, so companies need flexibility and options, and his specific advice was to have a good first source and a good second source. Process means turning people and parts into something dependable, repeatable, and consistent, which is where metrology comes in. You have to measure what you're doing and use good metrics to see whether you're on track or trending out of control. He said this includes work instructions, process control, fixtures, and jigs. Together, he said, the three Ps work as a guidepost for whatever a manufacturing environment throws at you.
What Keeps Them Going
Chris noted that measurement isn't usually thought of as exciting and asked each guest what has kept them satisfied.
Randy, a third-generation machinist, pointed to how varied manufacturing is: micro-machining, aerospace, composites, medical, and all kinds of unusual fabrication. He cited the old joke that if you put ten programmers in a room with one part, you'll get ten different ways to make it, many of them probably correct. He said he doesn't have "an artistic bone" in his body, but turning raw stock into a finished part that many people have worked on is his creative outlet, and he finds many of those parts beautiful. If someone loses interest in one sector, he said, there is always another area to learn that can "recapture that imagination." Programming has always been fun for him, and the constant changes in software and methods keep him on his toes. He said he especially values having some leeway: being given a problem with some guardrails and trusted to solve it. He wants others to be encouraged the same way, because he believes solving problems makes people feel valuable and confident enough to take on harder projects.
Jeff, whose sons are mechanical engineers and whose wife is the company president, said simply that he likes to see people and companies succeed, because "success begets success." He said what has kept his company successful and "never bored" is that people it trained have moved into larger roles at other companies and keep calling. He credited a mentor who told him long ago: "We invested a lot of time in you. You make sure that you invest a lot of time in the people that come behind you."
Closing: Uncertainty as an Opportunity
Steve gave the final reflection. He noted that the recording happened on a day when tariffs were the top news, and that there is a lot of fear and uncertainty in U.S. manufacturing. He believes it should be seen as an opportunity. Many companies are trying to do more in the U.S., and he said it has been difficult, because the country has arguably lost some of the edge it once had as the leading manufacturer in the world.
His advice was to buckle down and invest in technology, tooling, and people, including cross-training and mentoring, to build the industry's future workforce. He believes that with those investments U.S. manufacturing can be at the top of its game again. He urged listeners not to be afraid and "close up shop and go home," but to invest, learn, train, and grow.
All right, we have a full house for today's conversation. Steve, Jeff, Randy, good to have you here. Steve, this first question is going to go to you. One topic surprisingly we really haven't discussed directly on this show before is metrology. So, let's start with a basic definition. How do you describe metrology as if you're having a beer with someone?
Well, it's a good question. And for many, many years I didn't know what metrology actually was myself. It's not meteorology. That's probably the biggest mistake, makes something, right. If I could tell the weather I'd probably have a different job. So it's not meteorology. Metrology, it's a science of measuring things, right, the simplest kind of way of thinking about it. And the things I'm involved with, and I think you guys as well, is more about industrial metrology, right? So it's ensuring the accuracy, reliability of the things we get involved in producing. So it's kind of a quick answer, I think.
No, it's a quick answer, but it's a good answer. It sets the baseline: science of measuring things. Today we're talking about it in the context of industrial settings. And in true Manufacturing Happy Hour fashion, I think it's best that we start with like a story told over a beer, if you will. And you all have extensive experience in this space. But Jeff, I mean, you've done projects ranging from like Madison Square Garden to TSMC, the Texas Rangers baseball stadiums, Vegas Sphere, you name it, you've been around the block. How do you utilize metrology to get better information in the projects that you do?
Well, you know, the bottom line is it's all about the numbers. You know, it's one of the favorite sayings: in God we trust, everybody else has to bring good data. And you know the data that you get with metrology, I mean, I got a lot of conversation. We were in a 45-minute meeting and I left seven hours later at US Steel yesterday, and talk about, you know, the definition of what is metrology, what are surveyors, you know, and I'm telling you that lasted an hour. But you know, we just use the metrology, the study of the numbers, for verifications. And you know, my saying to all my guys all the time is verify, verify, verify, you know. And that's just the science of numbers. You know, you just got to find the accuracy, you got to use different systems and types just to verify, even if it comes down to a measure.
And Randy, you're doing a lot of like on-machine inspection with like spindle probes, etc. How are you leveraging inspection to reduce scrap and like make the best parts possible? Slightly different intro question for you. I'd love to hear like a boots-on-the-ground story from your perspective.
Yeah. I think one of the easiest and the simplest ways that we have been and are using probes and inspection is just for simplifying setups, right? Let's say you've never used a spindle probe on a machine and you're new, the software out there is really pretty easy to use. And if you just simplistically want to pick up your first operation, maybe you've got some stock that the saw cut lengths, you know, vary quite a bit, you can use probing cycles to come in and find that and find the center line so that when you're, let's say, milling the outside of it, you know, you're always taking an equal amount off of each side. And then conversely, operations that move thereafter, if you're picking up datums or you want to pick up a specific feature on the part, it's nice such that maybe now I don't have to build tooling or fixtures that are extremely accurate. I can let that float a little, or I'm not really concerned about it because the probe is going to come in, it's going to pick it up every time, and necessarily I don't have to worry about it now, right? Those are just the real low-hanging fruit, easy things we can implement just right now with very little effort and training.
On the other side, if we talk about pallet systems and automation, right, we've got a machine maybe running overnight that we've got a critical feature we want to check. And if that feature is undersized, no problem, let's probe that, let's comp the tool and let's recut it. And then on the other side of that, if we oversize the feature, necessarily one could argue there's almost no point in continuing, right? We should reject that pallet, set a flag, reject the pallet, notify the operator: hey, I've got a problem, come take a look at me. And then move on, you know? And most automation and pallet systems will have a setting or a feature that I can bring in the next job so that it's not just sitting. So I think regardless of kind of the parts you're making or what you're doing, real-time inspection and feedback is really just critical, and it can save you a lot of time and aggravation.
So, you've all just given definitions or examples of, you know, measurement, inspection, and more importantly, like the importance of having data in all of this. So, I'm going to go a little bit of a different direction with this question because I think some people misunderstand these topics or misuse them in industry. Jeff, how do some people use the like "metrology" — I'm doing air quotes for folks listening on the audio podcast — versus how should you actually use metrology? Let's go there.
Well, I mean metrology, I mean you're looking for the best data to make decisions off of. And I mean it is a science. It's a study of numbers and you're looking at small deltas. You're looking for reliability. You're just looking for confidence in how you're installing machines, how you're erecting steel, how you're fabricating steel. You know, is it in the right location? What is it going to do? It's a science. It's a study. I mean we track fabrication jobs all the time to, we want to understand what is heat doing to it, what is, you know, cold doing, what is the weld procedure, what is all kinds of data that metrology is used to measure the, I call it the changes or deltas in a process.
Okay. So you were talking, you're looking at measuring welds, cold, heat. You know, I want to expand on that a little bit more. If you're not measuring that, what is the danger to, let's say, the project that you're working on? Give me an example there.
Well, okay, the trellis is the outside area of the Sphere where the outside screen goes on. We fabricated that within the facility to plus and minus of a 302. By the time it got to the job site, you had to drive through the desert. You had vibration. You had heat. You have cold. If anybody's been around the desert, you know it's cold in the morning and it's hot in the afternoon. I mean, I can be burning up in 90 degrees and looking at snow caps. I mean, the temperature variation is huge. And then one of the steel erectors wants to know who in the heck did this metrology back at this shop because we're one inch off, you know. But we start monitoring that to understand what travel's going to do, what heat is going to do, what cold is going to do. I mean, steel has stress relieving properties to it, and how you treat that and how you deal with it is everything that you need to know. Most time, if you're out on a large job site, they fly things into place early in the morning before the sun comes up. And that was all due to all the measurements that we took. You know, you're crazy as heck to fly something in the afternoon or when the sun's shining. You know, expansion is much worse than contraction at that point.
So, I'm going to paraphrase this as if I'm having a beer with you. The reason this is so important, and that measurement is so important, is because by doing it you can account for some of these potential changes and you can plan for the project accordingly. You mentioned the different ways to treat the steel, etc. So that way you are well prepared for the changes that occur due to material science. Is that correct?
You're trying to do all you can to help these field erectors out.
Love it. Great example. Steve, you actually got your start working in the jet engine space, but you've been focused in metrology for quite a while now. You've mentioned that it touches everything. Just give us that quick, you know, we're at the conference happy hour, give us an example of the breadth of metrology in this case.
It's a great consideration. You know, really everything we touch in our everyday lives that is produced at some factory somewhere in the world has to typically be measured. When you get up in the morning, it's going to be all the stuff in the home. It's going to be your coffee pot and your car and your cell phone. Everything we use today, you know, we don't often think about how it's produced. And virtually all of these things that we use are measured as part of the production process. Jeff reminded me of a story when it came down to building an airplane. All right. So think about building an airplane. Oftentimes the components of the airplane are not just produced in one factory. They can be produced in different countries: fuselage in France, the engine in the US, the tail in Germany. And really metrology is used in all these different areas to monitor the production and dimensional geometry of all these parts. So when they do all come together for final assembly, they all fit and match. You know, imagine you're going to assemble the airplane and you're off by an inch when they come together. You've got a problem. You can't grow or shrink these parts. So the metrology is again used in all these different factories. And they're used locally to control and understand how well you're making your part. Then that same data is then shared to the end assembler to put it all together and make sure it's all going to fit.
One other thing I think has changed a lot is that we used to take and build parts or products, and once they were all done we'd send them off to the CMM lab, and the guy in the white lab coat would measure the part and say whether it's good or bad. And that is now changing. That's kind of an offline approach. We've gone from offline to now nearline and then inline. So we take inspection in process as we're producing the parts, so we don't actually produce scrap. Much more efficient way of running an operation. So I've seen a lot of technology used to go from measuring the product after it's all done to verifying the product in process, so you can monitor your process and not make scrap or rework.
So I actually think that's a nice preview to what might be the answer to this next question. How does metrology help manufacturers make the best products they can possibly make?
So, another cool example: we do a lot of work with all of the NASCAR teams, okay? And NASCAR, every single week, they're going out there to go fast and win a race. And years ago, each of the race teams would produce their own car. They would produce their own chassis. They produced their own body panels, staying within the conforms of the NASCAR rules. And that made a lot of potential for how good of a car you made, whether you won or lost every week at the racetrack. That's all been changed now. NASCAR is trying to have parity with all their teams. One company produces all of the carriages and the body panels and all that. So, you know what some companies are doing is they're using our technology to measure every single part they receive. Now, in theory, they're all exactly the same, produced in the same factory for all NASCAR teams, but they're measuring all these parts that come into their factory, understanding which ones are big and small and twisted and curved, because they're all not perfect. And they're taking all that data and they're optimizing what they have received to build the best car each week. It's a great example of trying to stay ahead of the other teams, using metrology data to optimize the best build of their cars each week. And you know, the teams that are doing this and using this technology are winning a lot of the races.
Excellent story, excellent example. We're going to go a little bit beyond metrology now. And Jeff, I've got another question for you. And I'm going to start with a quote that I believe you had mentioned to me before we recorded this interview: you mentioned years ago that one of your professors said people only give a crap about results. So, let's go into this today. One of your key results, your clients, they measure you on how fast you can get a job done. And this is pretty typical across the manufacturing industry for projects. What is your secret to getting jobs done as quickly as possible? And maybe how does measurement tie into all this?
Well, it's like I said, we had a very long meeting at US Steel yesterday, and there were a lot of questions: how do we get results faster? And when you stay up with the technology, I mean, probably 80% of these guys never seen a Leica tracker in their lives. And they got introduced to the ATS600 and the AT500, and they were just like, "Holy crap."
Define that for our audience. I'm not sure everyone might know what those are.
Well, they took us out and they wanted us to check an alignment of a roll, you know, and it's on what they call a cold mill line that's getting ready to be commissioned and everything else. He says, I want to see how fast you can get the alignment into the control. We had control. Well, they were impressed with the startup time, for one thing, of the equipment. Most of our competitors take 45 minutes to an hour to warm up. We went out there, started up. We set control with the AT500 because it goes 500 ft each direction. So we had a high level of confidence, and then we tied in the ATS600 to do a scan on the roll, and we had all the data and information within 35 minutes. They said the competitor always takes about four hours to do this.
There you go. It's all about the process, and, you know, no substitute for knowledge either.
Yeah. We're going to get into some of these tools and the importance of having the right technology a little later on. You've also mentioned that a lot of your success at Industrial Technology Solutions has been in reliability as well. How does that translate to results, and what can other manufacturers learn from your approach? Because I'd like to make this actionable for them.
Well, understanding the process is going to be key to what I go in, because, I mean, it's just kind of dealing with the vital few items versus the trivial many. And we kind of put that, you know, we're all statisticians, and, you know, we have a good background in mathematics, statistics, engineering. But you got to go after the vital few areas that are kicking people in the rear end, and most of the time it's always rework and other areas, and it's pretty easy to find up front. But when you have equipment like what we have now, you know, we do what we call a lot of crane evaluations. Well, we don't have to shut things down. And I mean, I get so many managers and people out there saying, you realize if we shut this down it's a million dollars an hour, and, you know, I get so sick and tired of hearing that. I didn't put them in that position. We're trying to help them get out of it. But having the right statistics and data going into a project is very, very important, and that's what we do a lot of as well. You know, that brings the reliability side of things.
You mentioned something that — and Randy, I promise we're going to get to you after this. You've been
been you've been chilling with us for a while here. We're going to get to you next. But last question I've got for you, Jeff, for this train of thought is you talked about rework and eliminating rework. So the manufacturing leaders listening to this will love this one. What are you doing to essentially take the rework that you have to do on projects to zero?
Well, I mean you're training your fitters. You're training everybody to utilize metrology. You know, you cannot wait to inspect all your parts, especially in the fabrication shops, when they're done. If you don't catch it during the process, it's going to end up in rework, you know. And the whole idea is to teach millwrights, steel erectors, fabricators, fitters, everybody that's doing this how to utilize metrology, when to call it in, because believe it or not, there are tape measures that are not in tolerance out there in the field.
So, I mean, people laugh at me when I say we're going to take it to zero, but we have a 40-year track record that can prove that we can do it. And it's just a mindset, and I've talked about it earlier. It's a paradigm shift.
Well, we're going to talk about that paradigm shift, that mindset, the training that goes with it, because you're teaching people to catch it during the process. Randy, as we transition to, let's say, this training conversation, how are you also leveraging tools on your side, you know, like ESPRIT, for example, to be as efficient as possible, especially when folks have to compete on a global scale?
For myself personally, especially, we were talking a little bit about auto machine probing and inspection. ESPRIT has an add-in or an add-on, like a tool that comes with it, that you can use to program the probes in the system itself, so that you're not, you know, hand... like previously we used to just kind of hand code that stuff. It was just kind of how the job went because it wasn't really well supported in most cases.
And now, you know, Hexagon has done in my opinion an outstanding job of taking that, putting it inside the software. We can simulate it. We can see if we're going to crash into something or if we have the clearance we need, and we can build that, you know, into the program. You know, going into the program with that mindset and not as an afterthought. You know, we see tolerances we need to hit or, you know, key criteria or features, whether that's locating on tooling on our next stop or, you know, maybe a tight tolerance hole or, you know, some kind of a feature that if we blow it, we're either going to have to, like Jeff said, rework it, which could be very painful and costly, or we could, you know, totally scrap the part and then just waste all that time and material that we just spent, you know, however deep into the process we are.
And so, I think just as manufacturers, you know, we need to kind of allow for that time to be in the process, and let's not, I think like Jeff kind of alluded to, let's not wait till we find the problem to start addressing it. Let's look at it with a little more forward thinking and forward thought and say, you know, if this did go out of whack, you know, this could cause us a lot of pain, delays on the delivery, you know, loss of goodwill with the customer, you know, loss of cash, you know, all those things that we want to avoid.
And so I think that, you know, again with that paradigm shift and that mindset, you know, we need to remember that it has value, right? That it has value at the front end and not just on the back end. And so I think, you know, until we really accept that, I think it's, you know, we're going to be trying to chase being reactionary versus, you know, proactive, is, you know, just something that we really will benefit from, I think.
Well, let's continue talking about tools to be proactive. Steve, this question is for you. You mentioned in a past conversation that attracting and retaining people involves being flexible, providing training, and providing access to modern tools. So that last one is the one we're going to tackle here. Can you share how you or others in the field are leveraging access to modern tools as part of your people strategy?
Sure. I've got a great job, right? So I run our factories here in the Americas. Hexagon has all this technology. So whenever we acquire a company with a hardware or software technology, I'm on the phone saying, "Hey, how do I get that in my factory?" Right? So, you know, ESPRIT is a great example.
We have a machine shop here. We produce all of our high value-add machined parts. It was not a couple years since I was here, I realized some of these programs were 20 years old, hadn't been, you know, reviewed in a long, long time. Along comes ESPRIT with a great set of tools. We were able to really analyze that process. We created a digital twin, so basically designed a digital image of the process we're actually running. We're able to simulate different cutter paths and different approaches to machine these parts and do all that offline without, you know, affecting the production of the factory, and making all of our mistakes in a virtual world where you don't crash machines, you don't crash parts, you don't hurt anybody.
And that was a couple things. That was of course a huge boon to our productivity, to be able to revolutionize our programs, make them much more efficient, but it also becomes a great tool for our employees to learn that technology that they can apply now here or wherever they might go in the future.
NCSIMUL is another one of our simulation tools, where a workstation trainer can be used to simulate different controllers. So you can basically virtually run CNC machines or inspection machines, CMMs, to do offline training in a safe virtual environment. So those are some cool examples of some technology we use that we put into our employees' hands.
But we also have some pretty neat products, right? I mean, these products are again used in the manufacturing industry. If you think about our CMMs, they're measuring typically a micron or so, and for those folks out there, what is a micron is always a good question. Think of a piece of paper as being about 100 microns thick, right? So some of our CMMs will measure within a whole volume one micron, so 1% of the thickness of a piece of paper. And we even have some ultra high accuracy machines that'll go to one third of one micron. So, you know, while it's not a jet engine that's spewing fire out the back end, you're doing things that are just truly amazing from an engineering point of view, and some of the technology is what I think brings people in and keeps them here, being exposed to this kind of technology.
Jeff, I've got a follow-up question for you. How have you helped your teams understand what tools are available to maximize productivity? I think this might have had something to do with a story you told once about Madison Square Garden and a project you were doing there. Can you go into that one a little bit?
Which one was that? You might be talking about an intel center where we were building cords where it took me four hours within 12. I could have that
I remember that story and I remember Madison Square Garden. I'm not sure where the best moral of the story would be in this case for that particular question. So, you know, Jeff, how have you helped your teams understand what tools are available to maximize productivity? And if you could answer this in the context of one of your projects, I think that would be the best way to describe it.
Well, I mean, the thing about teaching our people is, you know, probably one of my biggest issues myself is having the ability to listen. Because I'll be honest with you, the Madison Square Garden project became extremely successful and accurate based off the ATS600.
And I'll be honest with you, I was negative against it, until we had a couple of demonstrations and, you know, just looking at the opportunities and the technology that's out there and keeping everybody abreast of it. I mean, those are always teaching things for all of us. I mean, we're all students for the rest of our lives. I don't care who you are. And, you know, I'm in my 60s and I'm probably one of the hardest students in my whole organization.
But, you know, I got so many stories that I've told that I almost can't remember. But Madison Square Garden was a learning curve. We learned a lot from steel erectors. We learned a lot from engineers. We learned a lot from site surveyors. You know, just don't ever close your ears and close down on opportunities and ideas, because there's plenty out there.
I believe you've said something along the lines of you're able to learn and train on the job and still kick the crap out of the old production numbers. Is that one of your sayings as well?
Oh yeah, we can run circles around people. I love the challenge. I mean, you know, they laughed at me when they thought an old man was going to beat them, and not only did I beat them, we killed them. And it's not how hard you work, it's how smart you work.
And using the technology, because when you talk about rework and how you put things, metrology is a control, and if you don't keep utilizing it as a control, you just go back to ground zero again. But that's where you have to always constantly train and keep people, because those are the controls that you have to have in place, otherwise you're going to get rework and costs are going to go up.
So Randy, I've got a question for you. You said part of your approach is the mentality that just because an issue hasn't happened yet, you should still prepare for it, which I think pretty much any manufacturer would agree with. Can you tell us a bit more about that? How do you make sure proactive training is more than just an afterthought?
I like to look at it just kind of in the context of when I'm working with people. I think maybe one of my superpowers is just being able to imagine the worst case scenario, that we're doing something and, you know, somebody puts the wrong tool in the spindle, somebody misloads the part and they shift it a little one way, or, you know, I think just the myriad of things that could happen. Somebody inverts a number on something and they see something differently. And so I think it's, you know, really pretty easy to think back on when, you know, someone just made an honest, and I'm going to call it an honest mistake. It wasn't intentional. Things just happened. They, you know, something called out something and they just saw something else, grabbed it, and there was no, you know, there was no check.
So, every time I'm doing training, I like to kind of look at a situation and go, you know, let's use this as an example, like, hey, let's say we didn't hit this dimension, or, you know, that this tool broke down too soon, or, you know, the roughing tool broke down or the finish tool, you know, didn't do what it was supposed to do. We can put a check in here to come in and measure and update this, you know, and/or it can just set a flag and just say, "Hey, come look at me." Like I think, you know, this is kind of a forward-thinking thought that we had, that if something goes south here or, you know, this whole dimension doesn't hold, you know, this is going to have a cascading effect all the way down. And I don't feel like that's an unrealistic situation. And I like to, you know, kind of look at those training situations and just kind of make up a little scenario of like, hey, this is maybe something I saw in the past or this is something I could see happening in the future. So, let's, you know, create a little kind of a training session here.
And I try and kind of help guide people. I like to try to help lead people to answers, because, you know, in our respective fields, we're necessarily subject matter experts and so we know the answer. But I like helping lead people to that and getting them to kind of think critically, and I think that, you know, just builds confidence. You know, I like to see when people have confidence and they're like, "Oh yeah, I did this before and, you know, that can apply now." And I think that's, you know, just it's just not fulfilling and nice to see when people kind of take that little bit that you've given them and then they latch on to it and they expand, you know, and use it somewhere else. And I don't think that that's unreasonable. I think that, you know, in any kind of situation where we're doing training, you know, we could look at that maybe from a little bit broader context and say, let's, you know, turn this just little question into, you know, even just an impromptu, you know, 10 or 15 minute training session where, you know, someone could gain some valuable information that they didn't have before.
Randy, I've got a follow-up on this. I mean, is there something that you think you've done particularly well at your company that's getting people to ask the right questions, that's getting people to have that willingness to learn on the job, improve processes, etc.? I'd love to hear maybe some thoughts on that.
Yeah, I think just inspiring inquisitiveness, and/or like asking, you know, ask me something, or, you know, what's an outlandish or wild thing that you think we can't do, or that, you know, if you had a magic wand, if we could do something, you know, what would that be? And I like to encourage people to, you know, think big, and/or, you know, what would save you a lot of time and hassle and headache. That's the other thing I love, pain points. Like what is a pain point that if you could solve, you know, your day job, problem, whatever, would be much better? And, you know, necessarily is it always possible? But I think once you, you know, dig in and dig down on that, I think that you really can find solutions that, you know, necessarily are not that difficult, and/or if they have, you know, inspection probes or software, they can solve those things, they just necessarily didn't know.
And I think also the thing too is, I think a lot of projects seem, especially for me, that they're just enormous. Like you look at a project and it's almost overwhelming. And I like to tell people, it's like, let's just take, you know, right, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Let's break it down. Let's, you know, look at the small bits that can help us, you know, dissect that and understand it, and then let's start testing. You know, are we sure we can do this? We don't know. Let's try it. You know, let's get in there, take some measurements, do some inspection, record the data. And I think that myself and other people find that, you know, it wasn't as hard as we thought, or, you know, we really could do that. We just needed to, you know, have that confidence and faith and, you know, the tenacity, and just kind of move forward and do it, you know, get it done.
And I think that there's also some other, you know, there's some other benefits that come along with that. There's other things that we learn, you know, something we had to research, a system variable, a machine function, a software function, that we're now like, oh, we didn't know how that worked and now we do. So, here's another, you know, tool in our toolbox that we can apply, you know, systemwide, I guess I'll say.
Randy, I appreciate you taking us a step further
with that answer. Jeff, I want to go back to something you mentioned pretty early in this conversation, and that's the paradigm shift, and I believe a paradigm shift is taking place in industrial manufacturing right now. Are you seeing more people with a willingness to change, looking at education as an opportunity to improve their processes? Let's talk about that paradigm shift a bit.
It all depends on the corporate aptitude, really. It's like I said yesterday, we had a wonderful day that, you know, you have a lot of people that are willing to change, because if you're not willing to change the way you think about things and how you do things, I'm really not interested in working with you. Because what we do is we try to get buy-ins from everybody, and then do some real quick successes, you know, to show them. A simple one is doing a Kaizen event with the different groups. You've got to involve everybody and get the process in place, get the buy-ins and then show success, and then it's just amazing how fast that paradigm will shift once you get the buy-in of all these groups.
So Steve, as we wrap up this part of the conversation, based on everything we've discussed, can you summarize manufacturing operations in the context of three things that we've talked about today, but not necessarily all at once? People, parts, and process.
Yeah, I think next year will be 35 years I've been living, growing, and working in manufacturing. So I've had the opportunity to do lots of fun things. It was probably about 10 years ago that we had a product launch and it was a bit premature. The product wasn't technically ready and supply chain wasn't set up, and it was one of the most challenging times of my career. Just everything that could go wrong was going wrong, and I had one of those days you come in and say, how do I wrap my hands around all this? And it came down to people, parts, and process, the three Ps. And most any challenge I've had in my career since then can be kind of addressed through the three Ps.
The first P of course is people, which is the most important. Having the right people, the right attitude, the right education, the right willingness to learn and grow. Fostering an environment where they enjoy working, where they understand what the goals are, having good communication, again, having an environment where those people are going to thrive. That's really where it all starts, right?
Once you get people in place, parts is the next P, and we're all dealing with some pretty challenging times right now. Also supply chain can be very, very complicated in terms of local sourcing or foreign sourcing, and that is a very tricky part. There's no magic pill there. You have to be flexible and be able to pivot and react to different things that are happening. Suppliers are always coming and going. They're all having their own different challenges. So again, having options, typically having a good first source and a good second source, always have a backup, is really the advice I'd give on the parts side.
And then third is, you know, you've got people and all the parts are there. You've got to put them together. You want a dependable, repeatable, consistent process. This is where metrology kind of comes in. You've got to measure what you're doing. Understand what you're doing, have good metrics to understand if you're on track, if you're trending in or out of control. You know, this touches on things like work instructions and process control, fixtures and jigs, and all the things we talked about earlier. But if you put those three things together, it can be a nice little guidepost for you to kind of sort through whatever is thrown at you in a manufacturing environment.
Well, one other aspect that we haven't touched on today that I want to ask you each about is a little around your careers, because, and I hope this has come across in the conversation, you all have a lot of enthusiasm around what you do. A lot of you have been doing it. I'd say everyone on this call, we've all been doing it for quite a while. And I'm interested to hear what keeps you all going in this space, particularly in a conversation that's been so focused around measurement, which, when I think of excitement and engineering and measurement, those aren't necessarily the two things that first come to mind, but you all seem to buck that perception in your own unique way. So Randy, I'm going to ask you first. You're a third-generation machinist, so this is in your blood. What has given you lifelong satisfaction in this manufacturing and engineering space?
I think for me, the beauty of manufacturing is that it has so many different facets, like if you're, you know, micro machining, aerospace machining, composites, medical, any type of weird fabrication. There are just so many, I think, different ways to make something and different ways that we do make things, and so many different parts and processes. And even, what's the old joke? You get one part and 10 programmers in a room and you'll get 10 different ways to make a part, and many of them will more than likely be correct.
And so I think there's a lot of creativity that goes along with that for people like myself. I don't think I have an artistic bone in my body, but taking a raw piece of stock and coming out with something that we look at together and go, you know, it took so many, 10 different people, to put their hands and work on this, and then we have this thing here. And I think for me, a lot of those parts are beautiful. They are just amazing to look at. And when we think about the things that we create and then inspect and measure and put life and energy and work into, I think it's amazing. Really, honestly, it's amazing.
And I think that again, with the depth and breadth of manufacturing, if there's a sector that you've been in for a while that maybe you're losing interest in, there's always another field, another facet, something else, another field that we're not an expert in that we can learn from and grow in, that can, I think, recapture that imagination. And for me, programming has just always been fun. It's always just been exciting and I enjoy it, and the industry is changing. The software is changing. The way we do things is changing, and so that keeps us on our toes and I think adds that excitement and that challenge to go and tackle those problems.
And it's nice when you have a little leeway, when someone gives you the room. It's like, hey, I've got this problem and, you know, maybe here are some guardrails, but then solve it. I think that all scratches that creative itch that we have. And I want people to encourage that, right? I think when people can really start exercising their brains and problem solving, that kind of reinforces what they do and makes them feel valuable, and creates that confidence in yourself, and I think encourages you to go forth and tackle more challenging projects.
Well, I appreciate you touching on the artistic side of engineering there. Jeff, you're in your 60s and you talk about how you're still walking around these steel mills doing the heavy lifting there. You know, your sons are mechanical engineers, your wife's the company president. What keeps you going in all of this?
Well, the bottom line is I like to see people succeed. I like to see companies succeed. I like to be a part of being the best at what we do and watching people become successful themselves, because success begets success. I mean, what's made us so successful and never bored is the people that we've trained have gone on to larger roles in other corporations that constantly give you a phone call. I mean, it's all about people for us, and especially for me. I've been blessed all my life, and one of my mentors told me a long time ago, he says, "We invested a lot of time in you. You make sure that you invest a lot of time in the people that come behind you." And I mean, that's what it's about.
Well, two great summary answers that highlight your enthusiasm around this space. Steve, take us home. What's your final reflection or piece of actionable advice for the listeners out there today?
It's a lot of pressure after those two good answers. Those are both great ways to wrap it up. I think that, as I reflect on US manufacturing for a minute here, there's a lot of fear and uncertainty right now. Today happens to be one of the days where the tariffs are top of subjects. I think this is and should be an opportunity for everyone. There are lots of companies that are trying to do more in the US. And I think that it's been difficult. We've lost some of the edge we had years ago. We had been and have been the leading manufacturers in the world, and maybe arguably we've lost some of that.
Now is the time for us to buckle down, invest in technology, invest in our people, doing the cross training, the mentoring, so we can establish the future workforce of our industry. Now is a great time again to invest in technology and tooling to make us more efficient. We have the capability and the possibility to be top of our game again, I believe, if you make those investments. So I would encourage everyone listening to, you know, don't be afraid and close up shop and go home. Now is the time to buckle down, invest, learn, train, and rise to the occasion.
Well, I appreciate how the three of you have tied investing in your people, learning on the job, and adopting technology to the satisfaction that you have in your roles, as well as the success of your companies, in this conversation. So hey, Jeff, Steve, Randy, thanks for taking the time today. Stay innovative, stay thirsty. Appreciate you being a part of Manufacturing Happy Hour. Cheers.
Thank you. Thanks, Chris.
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